Time to scrap all Vic clubs and create 3-4 mega Vic franchises

[Coolangatta]

Everyone in Victoria says they have a team. They don’t all follow the sport.

It would be significantly weaker, less money to fund any expansion to non AFL areas.

Ive stated we should go promotion/relegation. But why should old markets that developed the sport lose out to new markets that don’t follow the sport?

Then... why have a team at all? That makes no sense to me at all, goes against the definition of "follows a team". Is it a coincidence this guy chose Brissy as his team when he was a Fitzroy man?

I'm not so sure, the VFL was ****ed in the pre-national broadcasting days; was it because the struggling Vic clubs didn't have enough support back then? No, it was because they didn't have big media rights money which came from the game becoming more professional and national. Don't think it'd do too much damage in the long-term.

Go tell that to Reddit (yes I know, Reddit sucks). But also full of parochial Victorians who see expansion as a threat to the fixture and the talent pool which is bullshit if they only add 2 teams every 20 years or so.

 

[Blackas87]

Yes, but in Brisbane's case, one team in one city means no competition and plenty of room for growth, even if it's a slow process. Ditto Gold Coast who has history with the Southport Sharks. And Sydney is big enough to have two big clubs. No one's talking about putting ten teams in QLD or NSW.

yeah because those markets are taken by rugby league. They could never have 10 team like a big Aussie rules market.

The NRL expansion sees another team in Qld with the Dolphins entering and likely the 18th team will be the North Sydney Bears. The NRL knows it’s important to keep the fans we have

 

[Coolangatta]

yeah because those markets are taken by rugby league. They could never have 10 team like a big Aussie rules market.

The NRL expansion sees another team in Qld with the Dolphins entering and likely the 18th team will be the North Sydney Bears. The NRL knows it’s important to keep the fans we have

Isn't Perth in the running for team 18? One NRL team in WA is a risk but cause it's only one it's doable?

P.S. I appreciate you willing to look at long-term expansion options i.e. relegation/promotion, even weighted, dynamic conferences. It's the only way if the game does grow around the country. Just can't see the AFL not taking a punt at Newcastle if they reach 1 million people, etc.

Happy for there to be 10 Vic teams if it doesn't hold back non-Vic expansion. Hell, why not even have a Ballarat-Bendigo team one day? Would be a long way off but that has potential.

 

[Roylion]

It depends on growth in QLD and NSW. If there is, then I can see a Newcastle team happening, and an Illawarra or third Sydney team. In QLD, I could see a FNQ and Sunshine Coast team happening, again, if junior footy clubs and participation goes up enough. That's 23 teams if you add Tassie.

I just can't see it. And certainly not beyond 24 teams.

Whichever way it goes, there's no need to remove Victorian teams.

 

[Coolangatta]

I just can't see it. And certainly not beyond 24 teams.

Whichever way it goes, there's no need to remove Victorian teams.

Just hypothetically, if there's ever a 25th team, how would you organise the fixture?

 

[Roylion]

Just hypothetically, if there's ever a 25th team, how would you organise the fixture?

24 rounds. Top Ten final series.

 

[Coolangatta]

24 rounds. Top Ten final series.

You'd piss people off that are used to seeing two showdowns, western derbies, etc, but that is a viable option.

 

[Blackas87]

Then... why have a team at all? That makes no sense to me at all, goes against the definition of "follows a team". Is it a coincidence this guy chose Brissy as his team when he was a Fitzroy man?

I'm not so sure, the VFL was ****ed in the pre-national broadcasting days; was it because the struggling Vic clubs didn't have enough support back then? No, it was because they didn't have big media rights money which came from the game becoming more professional and national. Don't think it'd do too much damage in the long-term.

Go tell that to Reddit (yes I know, Reddit sucks). But also full of parochial Victorians who see expansion as a threat to the fixture and the talent pool which is bullshit if they only add 2 teams every 20 years or so.

Everyone has a team. Roy Morgan polls say Sydney Swans are by far the most supported AFL team, that’s because most Sydney will say they go the Swans but most of them never watch. Likewise myself, I say I support the Melbourne Storm, and Roy Morgan says the Storm are the most supported club, but I like most people from Victoria don’t watch any of it. My mate was a kid, he supported Lions, the Lions moved to Brisbane


That is ridiculous to think the media rights went skyrocketing because the game went national. Every game in the 80’s was played at the same time on Saturday afternoon and no game was televised live. No Friday night footy, no Saturday night, no Sundays. Those night games were starting to be played in the VFL. You don’t need to be a genius to realise every sport in the world has its media rights skyrocketing, it’s because of Pay TV and internet subscriptions. People paying to watch sport is more valuable than free to air advertising. Why do do you think big boxing matches or the UFC you can only watch them on Pay Per View yet they make ridiculous amounts of money.


The VFL clubs were only struggling in the 80’s because overspending, that’s it. One club would spend big so other clubs took out loans to stay competitive, The WA clubs were overspending because Vic clubs were poaching their players. If one AFL club now started spending money like they were and English premier league club and all the other clubs took out large loans to keep up, then the league now would be struggling, the current media rights wouldn’t be big enough for that. They brought in a salary cap to prevent this from happening again.

 

[Roylion]

You'd piss people off that are used to seeing two showdowns,

So? How many complaints do we already have about an uneven fixture? Showdowns / western derbies will be even bigger the one time they are held per season.

 

[Coolangatta]

Everyone has a team. Roy Morgan polls say Sydney Swans are by far the most supported AFL team, that’s because most Sydney will say they go the Swans but most of them never watch. Likewise myself, I say I support the Melbourne Storm, and Roy Morgan says the Storm are the most supported club, but I like most people from Victoria don’t watch any of it. My mate was a kid, he supported Lions, the Lions moved to Brisbane


That is ridiculous to think the media rights went skyrocketing because the game went national. Every game in the 80’s was played at the same time on Saturday afternoon and no game was televised live. No Friday night footy, no Saturday night, no Sundays. Those night games were starting to be played in the VFL. You don’t need to be a genius to realise every sport in the world has its media rights skyrocketing, it’s because of Pay TV and internet subscriptions. People paying to watch sport is more valuable than free to air advertising. Why do do you think big boxing matches or the UFC you can only watch them on Pay Per View yet they make ridiculous amounts of money.


The VFL clubs were only struggling in the 80’s because overspending, that’s it. One club would spend big so other clubs took out loans to stay competitive, The WA clubs were overspending because Vic clubs were poaching their players. If one AFL club now started spending money like they were and English premier league club and all the other clubs took out large loans to keep up, then the league now would be struggling, the current media rights wouldn’t be big enough for that. They brought in a salary cap to prevent this from happening again.

It'll be interesting to see if his kid supports a club eventually, as in watches them on TV or even at live games. We'll see. I'm betting many of the kids of Fitzroy fans have. I mean, people don't necessarily follow the clubs that their parents did. A lot of WA kids would struggle to name the WAFL clubs.

Right, so if it's because of streaming and pay TV, maybe then it's not because Victoria is carrying the rest of the competition.

And that was a great decision.

So? How many complaints do we already have about an uneven fixture? Showdowns / western derbies will be even bigger the one time they are held per season.

I agree.

 

[Blackas87]

It'll be interesting to see if his kid supports a club eventually, as in watches them on TV or even at live games. We'll see. I'm betting many of the kids of Fitzroy fans have. I mean, people don't necessarily follow the clubs that their parents did. A lot of WA kids would struggle to name the WAFL clubs.

Right, so if it's because of streaming and pay TV, maybe then it's not because Victoria is carrying the rest of the competition.

And that was a great decision.


I agree.

Will be interesting because Footy isn’t played on the tv in his house.

Absolutely it’s because of pay tv and streaming services. SA, WA, Qld and NSW clubs have all their games on free to air TV in their home states. Vic clubs don’t have all their games on Free to air, so if Victorians want to watch their club on tv all the time they have to pay for it.

Australia has laws to keep sport on free to air tv. Anti-siphoning laws. But if it was up to the AFL and other sporting codes they rather less Free to Air and more Pay tv, because that’s what brings in the dollars

 

[beema limapep]

Then... why have a team at all? That makes no sense to me at all, goes against the definition of "follows a team". Is it a coincidence this guy chose Brissy as his team when he was a Fitzroy man?

I'm not so sure, the VFL was ****ed in the pre-national broadcasting days; was it because the struggling Vic clubs didn't have enough support back then? No, it was because they didn't have big media rights money which came from the game becoming more professional and national. Don't think it'd do too much damage in the long-term.

Go tell that to Reddit (yes I know, Reddit sucks). But also full of parochial Victorians who see expansion as a threat to the fixture and the talent pool which is bullshit if they only add 2 teams every 20 years or so.

As the keepers of the game, we don't see expansion in principle as a threat. But why bring teams in which draw less crowds and revenue than north and the bulldogs whilst wanting these clubs to die Is there any growth in GC and GWS? Brisbane and Sydney still majorly subsidised 35-40 years on in massive markets. Port and Fremantle less financially successful than the bigger Vic clubs despite having greater market share. Tasmania for mine - yep. Even a third WA team should work. But 4k catch ups in Nth QLD, Canberra and to a lesser extent Darwin plus top 10 finals is crazy talk.

 

[Coolangatta]

As the keepers of the game, we don't see expansion in principle as a threat. But why bring teams in which draw less crowds and revenue than north and the bulldogs whilst wanting these clubs to die Is there any growth in GC and GWS? Brisbane and Sydney still majorly subsidised 35-40 years on in massive markets. Port and Fremantle less financially successful than the bigger Vic clubs despite having greater market share. Tasmania for mine - yep. Even a third WA team should work. But 4k catch ups in Nth QLD, Canberra and to a lesser extent Darwin plus top 10 finals is crazy talk.

4k in Canberra? They’re already getting more than that now for a part time team that’s not even theirs.

NQLD and NT are a long way off and yes, may never happen for different reasons, but never say never.

Too early to say on GC and GWS.

 

[Coolangatta]

Also, why bring in Tasmania then if it’s all about revenue and ratings? And if your answer is that they’re footy heartland, then we should have NT eventually, too. Plus Canberra who have enough footy history points on the board imo.

I can understand the argument about not expanding anymore in QLD and NSW but that’s only how things are currently sitting. 20-30 years is a long time, the new clubs seem to be doing well at grassroots level.

 

[citizen-erased]

AFL struggles in Qld and NSW, Suns, Giants and Brisbane have very low AFL attendance numbers. The TV numbers are even worse

Lions were only just behind brisbane in ave home crowd sizes last year.

Giants and suns are infant clubs

Swans outstrip all nsw nrl sides.

Meanwhile, i think north do better than storm.

Whilst they arent the best performers in the afl, they peform better in nrl markets than nrl teams.

NRLs battle is in its own backyard
It cant compete in victoria

 

[Blackas87]

Lions were only just behind brisbane in ave home crowd sizes last year.

Giants and suns are infant clubs

Swans outstrip all nsw nrl sides.

Meanwhile, i think north do better than storm.

Whilst they arent the best performers in the afl, they peform better in nrl markets than nrl teams.

NRLs battle is in its own backyard
It cant compete in victoria

Lions only behind Brisbane? I assume you talking the Broncos?

AFL gets bigger crowds across the board, it’s a better sport to attend. TV The Lions don’t come close to the Broncos. Broncos are the most watched club in the NRL on TV averaging 835,500 per game. While the Lions in Brisbane only draw 43,000 people watching on TV.

Swans and Lions have poor tv numbers in their local market compared to AFL clubs in AFL markets or compared to NRL clubs in NRL markets.

 

[beema limapep]

Also, why bring in Tasmania then if it’s all about revenue and ratings? And if your answer is that they’re footy heartland, then we should have NT eventually, too. Plus Canberra who have enough footy history points on the board imo.

I can understand the argument about not expanding anymore in QLD and NSW but that’s only how things are currently sitting. 20-30 years is a long time, the new clubs seem to be doing well at grassroots level.

20 years is a long time and yet how much have the NSW, QLD and 2nd tier SA and WA clubs grown since 2003? All still subsidised to varying degrees.

Brisbane (Almost 40yo) is a financial basket case. Sydney (41yo) needs help every year.

Your premise for the comp depends on the big 6 or 7 clubs, their fans and tv rights. And we don't GAF in expansion at traditional teams expense except if it benefits the game like Tassie deserve.

Get you own league if you want. If you want to dance with the big boys, know your place.

 

[Coolangatta]

20 years is a long time and yet how much have the NSW, QLD and 2nd tier SA and WA clubs grown since 2003? All still subsidised to varying degrees.

Brisbane (Almost 40yo) is a financial basket case. Sydney (41yo) needs help every year.

Your premise for the comp depends on the big 6 or 7 clubs, their fans and tv rights. And we don't GAF in expansion at traditional teams expense except if it benefits the game like Tassie deserve.

Get you own league if you want. If you want to dance with the big boys, know your place.

How long have St Kilda, North, the Bulldogs, and Melbourne been in the league? All still subsidised to varying degrees, all of those more than Port, Sydney, and Freo are.

Nah. We’re going to stay and annoy you, and hopefully in 40 years time we’ll have 22 teams and I’ll still be around to laugh at the Victorians like Cameron Ling who whinge about the talent pool.

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

How long have St Kilda, North, the Bulldogs, and Melbourne been in the league? All still subsidised to varying degrees, all of those more than Port, Sydney, and Freo are.

Wrong, most recent funding allocation has North and Stk at 18-19mil, and Sydney-Port-Melb-WB all the same at 16mil. Let's not open a porky pie factory old son

 

[Coolangatta]

Wrong, most recent funding allocation has North and Stk at 18-19mil, and Sydney-Port-Melb-WB all the same at 16mil. Let's not open a porky pie factory old son

Yeah I checked. Still, clubs that have been around for 100 years or more at the "home of football" getting the same funding as clubs that have been around for a lot less than that isn't great is it.

 

[AndyD]

I've answered this before, to expand the game in Queensland and New South Wales without the number of teams blowing out. Why would the AFL add the Suns and Giants, knowing they're going to take a hit for a couple of decades? Because it's a long-term investment. Let's face it, Victoria would be fine with 6 or 7 clubs, perhaps not in the short term, but certainly in the long term, because they are a footy state.

An 18 year old St Kilda supporter or 30 year old North supporter might not ever watch the game again, but their kids will, new migrants might. Not all Fitzroy and South Melbourne fans stopped watching footy, did they? What did any kid born after 1996 actually lose? Do you think most of the WA kids give a s**t about the history of the WAFL clubs? Or SANFL clubs? That's just the ruthless nature of things. Even if the minnow Vic clubs are still around 20 years from now, the new generation might cluster around the big Vic clubs. There's always been more support for the Pies, Bombers, Blues, Tigers, etc, there's no reason to think that won't continue.

Victoria would still be number 1 in TV ratings, and free-to-air TV isn't exactly in a position to try and cheapen the media rights deal, not when AFL could hand the reigns to Nine or Ten, or even a streaming company. Besides, it was West Coast who saved the VFL from collapsing into a pile of s**t, Victoria isn't the be all and end all of the national game.

Please explain how this growth will magically start to happen? If it was as simple as placing a team and waiting 40 years for people to watch en masse, why has it not yet happened for Sydney & Brisbane but would happen for any new teams in that same market?


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[Coolangatta]

Please explain how this growth will magically start to happen? If it was as simple as placing a team and waiting 40 years for people to watch en masse, why has it not yet happened for Sydney & Brisbane but would happen for any new teams in that same market?


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Gold Coast isn’t Brisbane. Ever heard of the Southport Sharks? Been around since 1961, won 22 premierships. Gold Coast had some good crowds in the 80s and 90s at AFL games they hosted.

Who are the Southport Sharks? – The Roar

www.theroar.com.au

As for Western Sydney (edit, link didn’t work). Tl;dr they are growing at grassroots level.

St Kilda, Melbourne, North, and the Bulldogs have been in the VFL from the very beginning. Why aren’t they big clubs? Please explain how this growth will magically start to happen?

 

[AndyD]

It depends on growth in QLD and NSW. If there is, then I can see a Newcastle team happening, and an Illawarra or third Sydney team. In QLD, I could see a FNQ and Sunshine Coast team happening, again, if junior footy clubs and participation goes up enough. That's 23 teams if you add Tassie.

AFL will definitely expand in NSW and QLD if the growth is there, why wouldn't they? And that's not counting perhaps Canberra, WA3, and unlikely but NT is also possible given the romantic popularity and social welfare case. NZ a smokie even, but them and SA3 I doubt as much as NT.

I could use the exact same argument for China, India or any other country with a massive population, which would be as stupid as what your proposing. If the people in those areas don’t care about your product it won’t make a difference how many people live there, and all of the available evidence from the last 30 years of heavy investment into QLD & NSW shows they don’t care and won’t watch even a successful team in large numbers regularly.


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[AndyD]

Gold Coast isn’t Brisbane. Ever heard of the Southport Sharks? Been around since 1961, won 22 premierships. Gold Coast had some good crowds in the 80s and 90s at AFL games they hosted.

Who are the Southport Sharks? – The Roar

www.theroar.com.au

As for Western Sydney Who are the Southport Sharks? – The Roar

St Kilda, Melbourne, North, and the Bulldogs have been in the VFL from the very beginning. Why aren’t they big clubs? Please explain how this growth will magically start to happen?

Two of those clubs averaged over 700k on FTA and over 200k in their home markets. How many people watch Southport and how much are TV companies paying to show their games?


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[Coolangatta]

Two of those clubs averaged over 700k on FTA and over 200k in their home markets. How many people watch Southport and how much are TV companies paying to show their games?


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How many people are still watching the VFL or the SANFL? Who gives a shit? People will naturally gravitate towards the top league of that sport.