Top 10 Players Since 2000

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Sttew said:
Lost me when you inserted McGovern at No.10. I doubt he would be top 50.

And, 4 Carlton players in your top 10?
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Its my top 10. I don't expect universal agreement. 3 Carlton players.

Judd in based on best of him at WCE.

Cripps could be a dual Brownlow medalist and I rate well ahead of Fyfe and Neale.

Didn't want a list full of mids, Curnow on track for 3 Colemans in a row which no-one else has managed.

Likewise needed a defender in there and I rate McGoverns best better than Scarlett, Rance which I realise would be minority view.
 

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Sirlemsip said:
I loved watching J Brown play, but there is no world where he was a better player than Nick Riewoldt.

Tredrea vs N.Riewoldt is a discussion worth having.
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Brown IMO had the highest peak of all of those CHFs at the time but it was too short. NRoo was better for a much longer time and hence was the better player
 
Guardian Hawk said:
Are you sure you're not confusing him with Tom Mitchell? No way anyone thinks he's one of the worst Brownlow winners of all time - he has the 3rd most Brownlow votes in history FFS (and was very unlucky not to go back to back).
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No Sam with the Hawks dynasty.

He tied with Cotchin on the Brownlow and they call Cotchin one of the worst Brownlow medalists of all time. Cotchin also got the coaches award that year. So if Cotchin is so must Sam.
 
Sttew said:
Lost me when you inserted McGovern at No.10. I doubt he would be top 50.

And, 4 Carlton players in your top 10?
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Lost you at McGovern? Geez you we pretty patient I got lost at Buckley then Hodge destroyed my soul 🤣

Each to their own though.
 
Cleansweep17 said:
No Sam with the Hawks dynasty.

He tied with Cotchin on the Brownlow and they call Cotchin one of the worst Brownlow medalists of all time. Cotchin also got the coaches award that year. So if Cotchin is so must Sam.
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That is some huge leaps in logic right there. Players that are described as the worst Brownlow medallists (Liberatore, Woewodin, Wynd, Cooney, etc) are not decribed that way because the year they won they were poor. It's usually because in very elite company, the rest of their career has not stacked up to the uber elite that are in regular Brownlow contention.

This may be why Cotchin has been described that way. In fact, in no other year did Cotchin receive 20 Brownlow votes. In no other year did Cotchin finish top 8 in the Brownlow. Cotchin is not in the top 35 Brownlow vote getters and there are no less than 14 players who have received more votes than him that never won the Brownlow. There are 84 players that average more Brownlow votes than Cotchin including Dan Hannebury, Scott Thompson, Neil Mann, Stan Spinks, Dayne Beams, etc. I wouldn't make the call myself - but that's why Trent Cotchin would be labelled as such.

This has nothing to do with Sam Mitchell. As I said, Sam Mitchell retired as the 2nd highest Brownlow vote getter ever, behind only Gary Ablett Jnr (now 3rd behind Danger). Mitchell was one of the favorites for the award in 2011 (the year before his win) after sweeping all the media awards and got 30 votes that season (enough to have won the award any year prior). He finished runner up to a surprise winner in Dane Swan - who got a lot of unexpected votes after being absolutely shafted the year before when he was a short priced favourite and lost to a complete outsider (who didn't even make AA) in Judd. Mitchell also finished runner up in 2015 and 3rd another season. So he won 1, finished runner up twice, and was top 3 another time (and finished top 15 at least 5 more times). He was one of the favorites for the Brownlow for about 10 years straight. There is no one with more votes than him that has not won one or multiple Brownlows.

You have strangely conflated criticism of your man in a very unusual way here.
 
1 - Gary Ablett Jnr
2 - Chris Judd
3 - Dustin Martin
4 - Patrick Dangerfield
5 - Lance Franklin
6 - Scott Pendlebury
7 - Marcus Bontempelli
8 - Nat Fyfe
9 - Dane Swan
10 - Adam Goodes


11 - Nick Daicos 😉


Honourable Mentions
- Lachie Neale, Simon Black, Ben Cousins, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell
 
beerbandit said:
1 - Gary Ablett Jnr
2 - Chris Judd
3 - Dustin Martin
4 - Patrick Dangerfield
5 - Lance Franklin
6 - Scott Pendlebury
7 - Marcus Bontempelli
8 - Nat Fyfe
9 - Dane Swan
10 - Adam Goodes


11 - Nick Daicos 😉


Honourable Mentions
- Lachie Neale, Simon Black, Ben Cousins, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell
Click to expand...

Ooooh Danger better than Buddy is a little spicy
 
Guardian Hawk said:
That is some huge leaps in logic right there. Players that are described as the worst Brownlow medallists (Liberatore, Woewodin, Wynd, Cooney, etc) are not decribed that way because the year they won they were poor. It's usually because in very elite company, the rest of their career has not stacked up to the uber elite that are in regular Brownlow contention.

This may be why Cotchin has been described that way. In fact, in no other year did Cotchin receive 20 Brownlow votes. In no other year did Cotchin finish top 8 in the Brownlow. Cotchin is not in the top 35 Brownlow vote getters and there are no less than 14 players who have received more votes than him that never won the Brownlow. There are 84 players that average more Brownlow votes than Cotchin including Dan Hannebury, Scott Thompson, Neil Mann, Stan Spinks, Dayne Beams, etc. I wouldn't make the call myself - but that's why Trent Cotchin would be labelled as such.

This has nothing to do with Sam Mitchell. As I said, Sam Mitchell retired as the 2nd highest Brownlow vote getter ever, behind only Gary Ablett Jnr (now 3rd behind Danger). Mitchell was one of the favorites for the award in 2011 (the year before his win) after sweeping all the media awards and got 30 votes that season (enough to have won the award any year prior). He finished runner up to a surprise winner in Dane Swan - who got a lot of unexpected votes after being absolutely shafted the year before when he was a short priced favourite and lost to a complete outsider (who didn't even make AA) in Judd. Mitchell also finished runner up in 2015 and 3rd another season. So he won 1, finished runner up twice, and was top 3 another time (and finished top 15 at least 5 more times). He was one of the favorites for the Brownlow for about 10 years straight. There is no one with more votes than him that has not won one or multiple Brownlows.

You have strangely conflated criticism of your man in a very unusual way here.
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I don’t agree with that at all, it’s very strange that you are using the rest of a players career in regards to grading how good of a Brownlow medalist they are.

It’s based on surpise winners of the year, that what people talk about. Lachie Neale 2023 Brownlow last year would be considered one of the worst Brownlow medal wins because he didn’t even make the AA team.

People say Cotchin isn’t a good Brownlow medalist because he won it by “default”, nobody says it’s because he was crap the rest of his career. So I’m surprised The Unicorn liked your comment as he is a bombers supporter that probably thinks Jobe was robbed.
 
Cleansweep17 said:
Ooooh Danger better than Buddy is a little spicy
Click to expand...
You Know It GIF by MOODMAN
 

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Cleansweep17 said:
I don’t agree with that at all, it’s very strange that you are using the rest of a players career in regards to grading how good of a Brownlow medalist they are.

It’s based on surpise winners of the year, that what people talk about. Lachie Neale 2023 Brownlow last year would be considered one of the worst Brownlow medal wins because he didn’t even make the AA team.

People say Cotchin isn’t a good Brownlow medalist because he won it by “default”, nobody says it’s because he was crap the rest of his career. So I’m surprised The Unicorn liked your comment as he is a bombers supporter that probably thinks Jobe was robbed.
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By the way, I'm not doing that at all. I've never once said that of Cotchin. It's not an opinion I hold. I'm illustrating the logic typically used when people make that argument.

When people ask - "who was the worst brownlow medallist ever", I've literally never heard Lachie Neale's name come up once. The most common answer I've heard is Shane Woewodin. The thing is, when nominating Woewodin, no-one is really trying to argue that he was crap in 2000. He wasn't. He was one of the best 5 or so players in the comp that year. The reason they nominate him as the worst Brownlow medallist ever is because the rest of his career was pretty medoicre and him as a player does not really stack up well against other Brownlow medallists.
 
Guardian Hawk said:
By the way, I'm not doing that at all. I've never once said that of Cotchin. It's not an opinion I hold. I'm illustrating the logic typically used when people make that argument.

When people ask - "who was the worst brownlow medallist ever", I've literally never heard Lachie Neale's name come up once. The most common answer I've heard is Shane Woewodin. The thing is, when nominating Woewodin, no-one is really trying to argue that he was crap in 2000. He wasn't. He was one of the best 5 or so players in the comp that year. The reason they nominate him as the worst Brownlow medallist ever is because the rest of his career was pretty medoicre and him as a player does not really stack up well against other Brownlow medallists.
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Have you never heard people say Cotchin/Mitchell aren’t true Brownlow medalists because the won by default and robbed Jobe. Like seriously?

Neale is different because he won 2. Most people would say he’s the worst 2x Brownlow winner because he didn’t get the AA in his second one and his first was an advantage due to COVID.

If Heeney gets the most votes this year it is guaranteed that the winner of this years Brownlow will not be rated highly as they technically weren’t the best player of the year and only won due to Heeneys suspension.. Just like Cotchins and Mitchell’s Brownlows.
 
Cleansweep17 said:
Have you never heard people say Cotchin/Mitchell aren’t true Brownlow medalists because the won by default and robbed Jobe. Like seriously?

Neale is different because he won 2. Most people would say he’s the worst 2x Brownlow winner because he didn’t get the AA in his second one and his first was an advantage due to COVID.

If Heeney gets the most votes this year it is guaranteed that the winner of this years Brownlow will not be rated highly as they technically weren’t the best player of the year and only won due to Heeneys suspension.. Just like Cotchins and Mitchell’s Brownlows.
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I've been on these boards most days for over 20 years and a lot of your "most people would say" is something I've rarely, if ever, heard. I've almost never heard people denigrate Mitchell as undeserving of his Brownlow. It may sometimes be said of Cotchin but as I said - my perception is that is for very different reasons (and probably directly specifically at you at times from the way you may have talked up your Richmond favourites). Also, most people don't consider Jobe as being robbed in my experience - most feel taking performance enhancing banned substances as a legitimate reason to lose a performance based award - even if Jobe was somewhat a victim of his own club's misdemeanours. That is very different to losing a Brownlow cos the umpires ignored a player in the votes for being "too mouthy" or because someone was suspended for 1 game for a "tiggy touchwood" on field incident.

I've also never heard people say Lachie Neale is the worst dual Brownlow winer either (what a silly criticism that would be given how small the club is). I think that's more what you wpuld say rather than most people, especially since everyone feels Neale was very unlucky not to win the 2022 Brownlow (when Cripps was strangely not suspended and Neale finished runner up).
 
AvantGardener said:
Its my top 10. I don't expect universal agreement. 3 Carlton players.

Judd in based on best of him at WCE.

Cripps could be a dual Brownlow medalist and I rate well ahead of Fyfe and Neale.

Didn't want a list full of mids, Curnow on track for 3 Colemans in a row which no-one else has managed.

Likewise needed a defender in there and I rate McGoverns best better than Scarlett, Rance which I realise would be minority view.
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"Didn't want a list full of mids, Curnow on track for 3 Colemans in a row which no-one else has managed"

Yes, there have been players who have won 3 Coleman medals (or more) in a row..

Dick Lee
1907, 1908 & 1909

Gordon Coventry
1926, 1927, 1928, 1929 & 1930

John Coleman
1949, 1950, 1951, 1952 & 1953

Fred Fanning
1943, 1944 & 1945

John Peck
1963, 1964 & 1965

Gary Ablett Snr
1993, 1994 & 1995
 
Walshawk said:
If you weren’t allowed to vote for a player from your team, I wonder whether anyone would have Dusty at No.1?

Top 2 is GAJ & Buddy
Next 2 are Juddy and Dusty.
Then Danger.

Norm Smiths are not everything. Gary Ayres was in Hawthorn’s best in 84 and 91 GFs. If he had four Norms, would that make him the greatest player ever?
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This same logic would have Andrew McLeod sitting second all time behind Martin.

It’s a very silly logic to cherry pick a small sample of grand finals that were heavily one way and claim that makes you the best of the best.

A persons ability is defined by the large sample of his games, not 2-3 games of your picking.
 
Lunchtime said:
"Didn't want a list full of mids, Curnow on track for 3 Colemans in a row which no-one else has managed"

Yes, there have been players who have won 3 Coleman medals (or more) in a row..

Dick Lee
1907, 1908 & 1909

Gordon Coventry
1926, 1927, 1928, 1929 & 1930

John Coleman
1949, 1950, 1951, 1952 & 1953

Fred Fanning
1943, 1944 & 1945

John Peck
1963, 1964 & 1965

Gary Ablett Snr
1993, 1994 & 1995
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I assume he meant in terms of players in the 2000's (i.e. the topic of the thread) given i was his justification for why he chose Curnow over others.
 
Lunchtime said:
"Didn't want a list full of mids, Curnow on track for 3 Colemans in a row which no-one else has managed"

Yes, there have been players who have won 3 Coleman medals (or more) in a row..

Dick Lee
1907, 1908 & 1909

Gordon Coventry
1926, 1927, 1928, 1929 & 1930

John Coleman
1949, 1950, 1951, 1952 & 1953

Fred Fanning
1943, 1944 & 1945

John Peck
1963, 1964 & 1965

Gary Ablett Snr
1993, 1994 & 1995
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Which one of those was 'since 2000' as thread title and top 10 list is about.
 
Of the top players this century Dustin Martin has by far the most valuable collection of performances in big games and it is not even close. This makes him number 1 without a doubt because even without those hugely valuable performances he is one of the top 10 or so players.

The rest is a lot murkier. Chris Petracca should be getting more mentions in top 10's imo. Bontempelli is in there. Gawn is thereabouts as well.

Daicos is shit scared and until he fixes that he is a pretender.

Ablett, Franklin are the two most obvious inclusions after Dusty. Judd is rightfully in there. If we are focussing on players for whom the whole of the dominant part of their careers is since 2000, then Dangerfield. The last couple of spots probably get more debatable. I am happy to leave a couple of spots for those yet to fully emerge.
 
Guardian Hawk said:
I've been on these boards most days for over 20 years and a lot of your "most people would say" is something I've rarely, if ever, heard. I've almost never heard people denigrate Mitchell as undeserving of his Brownlow. It may sometimes be said of Cotchin but as I said - my perception is that is for very different reasons (and probably directly specifically at you at times from the way you may have talked up your Richmond favourites). Also, most people don't consider Jobe as being robbed in my experience - most feel taking performance enhancing banned substances as a legitimate reason to lose a performance based award - even if Jobe was somewhat a victim of his own club's misdemeanours. That is very different to losing a Brownlow cos the umpires ignored a player in the votes for being "too mouthy" or because someone was suspended for 1 game for a "tiggy touchwood" on field incident.

I've also never heard people say Lachie Neale is the worst dual Brownlow winer either (what a silly criticism that would be given how small the club is). I think that's more what you wpuld say rather than most people, especially since everyone feels Neale was very unlucky not to win the 2022 Brownlow (when Cripps was strangely not suspended and Neale finished runner up).
Click to expand...

I didn’t say most people say, read properly before you quote me.

And you didn’t answer my question either, have you heard prior to your dicussion with me that Jobe should’ve won the Brownlow and the others won by default? If you seriously say no especially after as you said 20 years in this forum, you are just flat out lying.
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
This same logic would have Andrew McLeod sitting second all time behind Martin.

It’s a very silly logic to cherry pick a small sample of grand finals that were heavily one way and claim that makes you the best of the best.

A persons ability is defined by the large sample of his games, not 2-3 games of your picking.
Click to expand...

GAJ had more opportunity to get it done in arguably better teams than Dusty and I presume McLeod but couldn’t. Says everything, he just wasn’t consistent enough compared to those guys (which is the highest bar tbf) when it matters. No shame in that though, nobody else has either.

It’s also not just the NS, believe me if he didn’t have the 3x Gary Ayers medal or 2017 season he wouldn’t even be in my top 25 since 2000. Not sure why people conveniently forget those.
 
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Cleansweep17 said:
GAJ had more opportunity to get it done in arguably better teams than Dusty and I presume McLeod but couldn’t. Says everything, he just wasn’t consistent enough compared to those guys (which is the highest bar tbf) when it matters. No shame in that though, nobody else has either.

It’s also not just the NS, believe me if he didn’t have the 3x Gary Ayers medal or 2017 season he wouldn’t even be in my top 25 since 2000. Not sure why people conveniently forget those.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you are on about tbh. He had a patch of about 8 years averaging about 30 touches a game ablett.

He was on another shelf to dusty or anyone else.

2x brownlows 8 AA 2x premierships ,5× Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013, 3× AFLCA champion player of the year award: 2007, 2008, 2009.



You exaggerate martins finals a little as well. He has played a few finals where he has played quite poorly. Also 17,19 let’s be honest, you played pretty mediocre teams and didn’t even need him out there in those grannies to win. He played well but let’s not exaggerate the impact.
 

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