List Mgmt. Trade and F/A 2020 Cont’d

[sr36]

You think in 2023 Pendles and Sidey are main contributors to this side? Both will be on the verge of retirement and looking to be phased out.


Even in "full rebuilds" there are always players who carry over from the previous team, so Im not sure what your contention is?

I think we might just have a different definition of rebuild. I refer to re-build as a club looking to find a new core, whereas I think our core is already there and over the next couple of years, we'll be looking to add blokes to fill out the team and hopefully a few can step up and become valuable parts of our core group to add to it and to replace those getting old. In the short term, I see us as trying to refresh the role players, with the hope that some of these players can become important core players within a couple of years.

 

[loki04]

I think we might just have a different definition of rebuild. I refer to re-build as a club looking to find a new core, whereas I think our core is already there and over the next couple of years, we'll be looking to add blokes to fill out the team and hopefully a few can step up and become valuable parts of our core group to add to it and to replace those getting old. In the short term, I see us as trying to refresh the role players, with the hope that some of these players can become important core players within a couple of years.

I see it as generally turning over the list.

Some of the core will remain and some will be replaced in doing so. This is where I see our club headed over the next 3-4 draft/trade periods. Pendles will be 35 at the start of the 2023 season. You are kidding yourself if you think he isn't in his last few seasons.

 

[Spuddd]

I think you're being very generous there mate. We scrapped into the finals this year by finishing 8th (Yes we did knock the Eagles off and that was great!) but we were a long way off the Cats. Sure yes we will have 2 of those players coming back but you also need to factor in that sides below us have arguably gotten stronger ie - Blues & Demons to name a couple who will no doubt push for the top 8 next season.

For us to make the 8 we will need quite a few things to go right it won't be just because 2 players will be coming back.

- Players staying fit (Injuries to keys seem to be a way of life at CFC)
- The middle needs to find their rythem not sure an ageing Sidey and Pendles actually make us better in there. Alot will most likely depend on De Goey and his overall impact in the guts and if Grundy actually decides to rock up this year and play some good hard footy.
- The forward line needs to find a player or 2 who can create at ground level. Parker or Matera Pies may look at or of course we may find something in the draft. If Jordy goes into the middle more then Checkers will need help.

Absolutely - I agree with a lot of that but heres where our opinions differ.

With the list as it stood 3 weeks ago, with everything above, do you think we were a serious chance of winning the 2021 flag? We had gone from Grand Final, to a Prelim to a Semi (which you said we were lucky to get to).

Something has to change, we removed Treloar who contributed equally to our game plan as he did to the injury toll. You're right, our midfield needs a shake up, was Treloar going to be the one to do this, we all know the answer was no.

We have a lot of youth in our side that wasnt getting consistent games because of players like Treloar, Stephenson and Philips. Those three are all genuine AFL players, however have their flaws with the Collingwood system. Injuries, form and positions meant that their 2021 wasnt going to lead to 100% games played.

So with all of that, we could have retained those players, gone into 2021 and been there about again.

Conversely, we have made some drastic decisions that will likely see 2021 being similar to this year, a low finals berth or just missing, however there are now three spots in that side that are open for a number of Kids to have a consistent chance at making their own. Sier, Bianco, Rantall, Murphy, Ruscoe, Kelly - we dont know what these kids can do and we likely wouldnt have if the three weren't moved on.

Don't judge the future on the outcome of 2021, judge it on the fact if we will be contenders for a lot of the 20's without bottoming out too hard.

 

[ZEV]

I think we are looking a bit bare in the mids and forward line. De Goey needs to be split in 2. With Adz gone, Pendles being 33 and a question mark over whether any of Sier, the Browns or other less established payers will be able to do full mid time Jordy as a mid make sense. With our other most potent forwad Stevo gone its hard to see where the goals come from in 2021 and a forward line without De Goey will seriously lack fire power

If our youngster can step up in a major way this would help but i don't think that's something we can rely on. I think we will take a few steps back next season

Fingers crossed Howe returns from injury ok if a miracle can occur Langdon can recover. a backline of Moore, Roughhead, Maynard, Howe, IQ, Noble, Langdon frees up Crisp to the midfield who at times looked our fastest most dangerous mid entering f50 last season.

 

[sr36]

I see it as generally turning over the list.

Some of the core will remain and some will be replaced in doing so. This is where I see our club headed over the next 3-4 draft/trade periods. Pendles will be 35 at the start of the 2023 season. You are kidding yourself if you think he isn't in his last few seasons.

Over a three or four year period, most clubs turn over a fair percentage of their team. We've had an extremely static team since 2018 - that is going to change, but unlike teams who I'd describe as being in full rebuild mode, we're likely to still carry through a decent percentage of players over the next few years.

I agree that Pendles will make way sooner rather than later, no idea about Howe, but I expect Sidey to stick around for a while - likewise Adams, Grundy, Maynard, Crisp, JDG, Daicos, plus a couple that we've already added like Quaynor, maybe Noble. Plus a couple that are already on the list but not regular best 22 yet. I don't see the massive turnover that the term rebuild suggests.

 

[Unknown Identity]

Hoping we go full youth movement next season.
Kind of like having 4/5 new draftees as we are yet to see Bianco and Rantall at senior level.

 

[loki04]

Over a three or four year period, most clubs turn over a fair percentage of their team. We've had an extremely static team since 2018 - that is going to change, but unlike teams who I'd describe as being in full rebuild mode, we're likely to still carry through a decent percentage of players over the next few years.

Looked at how much turnover we have had in last 12 months alone we are nearing a full rebuild especially when the next 2 years are taken into account.

Rebuilds are never done in 1 season.

 

[sr36]

Looked at how much turnover we have had in last 12 months alone we are nearing a full rebuild especially when the next 2 years are taken into account.

Rebuilds are never done in 1 season.

I don't think we've had much turnover in the last 12 months. I'm probably missing a couple - but we've only really added Daicos, Roughead, Quaynor and Noble as regulars since 2018 (I'm probably missing someone). That's a really low number - I daresay the lowest in the league. Next year that number will jump by at least 3, due to the outs - plus I'm hoping that guys like WHE, Mayne, Greenwood and Thomas get replaced as well. So it is likely to be a substantial change, but Treloar aside, we're really only talking about role players.

 

[loki04]

I don't think we've had much turnover in the last 12 months. I'm probably missing a couple - but we've only really added Daicos, Roughead, Quaynor and Noble as regulars since 2018 (I'm probably missing someone). That's a really low number - I daresay the lowest in the league. Next year that number will jump by at least 3, due to the outs - plus I'm hoping that guys like WHE, Mayne, Greenwood and Thomas get replaced as well. So it is likely to be a substantial change, but Treloar aside, we're really only talking about role players.

I meant the names off the list. Not transitioned into the 22 yet.

Was what 9? players or something this offseason alone.

 

[Crazy Tails]

Hoping we go full youth movement next season.
Kind of like having 4/5 new draftees as we are yet to see Bianco and Rantall at senior level.

Well the post trade period narrative (in addition to hitting the top end of the draft) does seem to indicate that we want to give opportunity to some of the existing young talent on our list.

As a result I'm hoping we steer clear of any DFAs this off season and build from within.

It's time to see if Sier, Murphy, Tyler Brown

21

Tyler Brown

Age

25

Ht

192cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

2star

HB

7.0

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

3star

CL

0.6

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

1star

HB

7.0

4star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

2star

CL

0.6

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

4.0

2star

HB

7.0

5star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.4

4star

CL

0.6

3star

, Kelly, Bianco, Rantall, Keane, Ruscoe & Wilson can cut the mustard.

 

[sr36]

I meant the names off the list. Not transitioned into the 22 yet.

Was what 9? players or something this offseason alone.

OK. That makes sense. Youre talking about large changes to the list, whereas I'm just talking just about the senior team. Yep I agree that we are likely to turn over a pretty high percentage of the list, but I think it will be just an average percentage of the team.

 

[Big Bryza]

Should be targeting the following year and hitting up Petracca. He's that dynamic, powerful, goal kicking midfielder you'd kill for. Much rather him than Kelly. Bont and Cripps aren't gonna happen baring a biblical falling out at their clubs.

Also numerous out of contract players at the Suns that year. They should be planning these approaches now!

We already one of them on the list and he's proven he can win games off his own boot.

I must say our version looks to be putting in the hard yards during the off season as well which is great to see.

 

[loki04]

We already one of them on the list and he's proven he can win games off his own boot.

I must say our version looks to be putting in the hard yards during the off season as well which is great to see.

Degoey off the piss and in the gym/running track?

 

[Big Bryza]

There’s more chance I’ll win Lotto and don’t even buy a ticket

Get that Oz Lotto ticket for tonight champ.

 

[Big Bryza]

St.kilda just delisted Ed Phillips.


Surely, we couldn’t

Basically a pure wingman like his bro. Showed a bit early on but once they recruited Hill and moved Billings to the wing (plus Hanners etc), the writing was on the wall for Ed.

 

[Big Bryza]

Degoey off the piss and in the gym/running track?

Correct. Hopefully the penny is dropping for him. Should be using Petracca as his example. If he wants to be then he will clearly be our best player next year and beyond.

 

[Billys Back]

What part of 'take my money while you lie to my face' sits right with you? A fall in membership is exactly the wake up call that the club deserves!

If there are no consequence, the club will pull this sh!t time and time again.

Also, f*ck Carlton.

If you think it's ok for membership to drop by 30% and that the entire club wont be financially stricken as a result, taking years to recover, you have no idea. If that is ok for you, because you want the whole of the Collingwood Football Club and their members/supporters to suffer for years just because you are disgruntled suggests to me you are extremely naive on how cashflow is a financial lifeline for businesses. Either that or you are vinditcive and wont to take everyone down with major collateral damage because YOU feel you have been lied to.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Correct. Hopefully the penny is dropping for him. Should be using Petracca as his example. If he wants to be then he will clearly be our best player next year and beyond.

Great to hear, hopefully Sier follows suit and gives up the darts...

 

[Matt_352]

If you think it's ok for membership to drop by 30% and that the entire club wont be financially stricken as a result, taking years to recover, you have no idea. If that is ok for you, because you want the whole of the Collingwood Football Club and their members/supporters to suffer for years just because you are disgruntled suggests to me you are extremely naive on how cashflow is a financial lifeline for businesses. Either that or you are vinditcive and wont to take everyone down with major collateral damage because YOU feel you have been lied to.

If that's what it takes to get these incompetent pricks out of the club then so be it. Sad its come to that.

 

[Scodog10]

Guess you haven't looked at the ages of Pendles, Howe, Roughead, Sidebottom, Greenwood, Mayne, Cox lately. We also just had Varcoe Dunn Reid Treloar Stephenson Phillips amoung others depart.
In 2 seasons: other then the above mentioned being between 32 and 34 yo.
Josh Thomas

24

Josh Thomas

Age

33

Ht

178cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.4

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

7.9

5star

M

3.1

3star

T

3.0

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

9.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.3

1star

T

2.0

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

17.4

5star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.4

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

G

0.0

1star

will be 31 as well not doing a lot now don't imagine it be better then.
Elliott will be 30.
WHE and Adams 29.
Miho 30.

Langdon just taking up a pension with a destroyed knee.
Beams a crook.

A bevvy of questionable if ever be AFL players in the 2s.


Yeah can't see how a rebuild in next 2 or so year would happen. In fact its already started, this trade period and club admitted as much when it said after the geelong loss they realised this group needed to be changed.

For the past 5 years I’ve been a big believer in the list and I think the biggest problem was the underperformance in 16-17 which might be clouding some views on where we’re at.

On a talent basis had the list been better managed in those two years more people would be accepting of a heavy cull because it would have meant a 5 year window as opposed to 3. From my perspective our core in 2 years time should come from Grundy, Moore, JDG, Maynard, Quaynor and Daicos based on clear best 22 types in 2020. The problem we have due to injuries, form and cap mismanagement is that we have so many question marks over guys.

From that group Daicos and Quaynor have yet to establish themselves as fabric types, Langdon would be there if not for his knee, JDG’s form fluctuates way too much for us to build around him plus who’s to say he won’t chase the coin in 2022, we have Sier and Murphy who haven’t gone on with it after getting a taste in 2018, there’s a lot of hope being invested in T Brown when he’s barely had a 20p game at VFL level and we just traded out our most talented u22.

For those reasons alone I’m open to the idea of an overhaul, but also optimistic that it could be an easy fix if we were to somehow pull off a miracle by trading up to pick 2, sign a big FA in 2021 and bring Daicos in. Really what it probably boils down to is finding one or two wins from the guys with questions hanging over them ala Balta for Rance. Which I think the club is angling for when they talk of improving from within.

 

[Toecrusher]

If you think it's ok for membership to drop by 30% and that the entire club wont be financially stricken as a result, taking years to recover, you have no idea. If that is ok for you, because you want the whole of the Collingwood Football Club and their members/supporters to suffer for years just because you are disgruntled suggests to me you are extremely naive on how cashflow is a financial lifeline for businesses. Either that or you are vinditcive and wont to take everyone down with major collateral damage because YOU feel you have been lied to.

I'd say they could expect a drop by 10% maximum. I would also suggest there would be lots of delayed memberships, where people will rejoin, but delay until later to either send a message, or see how 2021 season starts.

All the positive messages the club is now trying to send won't be anywhere near effective as the first win of the season - as long as that doesn't take until round 10...

 

[Carringbush2010]

So after this Armageddon of a trade period that cannot be salvaged in the immediate to medium term.

It has raised questions of what is going on in the players minds and are they there just to maximize their coin? I'm sure on field success is on the mind but is that prioritized over the coin their employer pays them? And do they now have any trust for Nathan after the 'phone calls'?

Also what is it that the benchmark have as far as being able to retain premiership players and add flag winning players like Lynch? Why are they so different? Is it on face value they're paying their blue chip cattle ultra $$ and everyone else has to 'earn' their value? Is that true? If so why aren't we demanding more of our employees doing the same thing?

Is there a lack of urgency to instill the correct values in order to achieve on field success? And if so why is that?

 

[GoalSneak07]

Absolutely - I agree with a lot of that but heres where our opinions differ.

With the list as it stood 3 weeks ago, with everything above, do you think we were a serious chance of winning the 2021 flag? We had gone from Grand Final, to a Prelim to a Semi (which you said we were lucky to get to).

Well, depends which way you look at it really. The improvement of Daicos and Brown was super promising as the season went on. Grundy had a shocker. We had alot of key injuries so yes I believe early on in the season there was no reason to think we had a sniff as in the past couple of seasons.

Something has to change, we removed Treloar who contributed equally to our game plan as he did to the injury toll. You're right, our midfield needs a shake up, was Treloar going to be the one to do this, we all know the answer was no.

We have a lot of youth in our side that wasnt getting consistent games because of players like Treloar, Stephenson and Philips. Those three are all genuine AFL players, however have their flaws with the Collingwood system. Injuries, form and positions meant that their 2021 wasnt going to lead to 100% games played.

Treloar was removed for cap relief/bad contract management by the club not for his ability. As you said Treloar was injured for large chunks so he never really got going, past seasons showed his importance. We know lack pace in the midfield (Which De Goey may fix but it really unproven as he hasn't played consistent minutes as a permanent onballer)

So with all of that, we could have retained those players, gone into 2021 and been there about again.

No we couldn't go in with them mate because their contracts were so up the shit hence why we basically gave them all away (Treloar/Stevo/Flipper). Fire sale brother because the club f***ed up.

Conversely, we have made some drastic decisions that will likely see 2021 being similar to this year, a low finals berth or just missing, however there are now three spots in that side that are open for a number of Kids to have a consistent chance at making their own. Sier, Bianco, Rantall, Murphy, Ruscoe, Kelly - we dont know what these kids can do and we likely wouldnt have if the three weren't moved on.

Don't judge the future on the outcome of 2021, judge it on the fact if we will be contenders for a lot of the 20's without bottoming out too hard.

I haven't really judged the future beyond next season. I'm judging 2021 as a year where we step back whilst other teams pass us. Simple really, not meaning to be smart or anything just my honest assessment.

 

[GoalSneak07]

I think we are looking a bit bare in the mids and forward line. De Goey needs to be split in 2. With Adz gone, Pendles being 33 and a question mark over whether any of Sier, the Browns or other less established payers will be able to do full mid time Jordy as a mid make sense. With our other most potent forwad Stevo gone its hard to see where the goals come from in 2021 and a forward line without De Goey will seriously lack fire power

If our youngster can step up in a major way this would help but i don't think that's something we can rely on. I think we will take a few steps back next season

Fully agree mate

 

[jackcass]

I think he's more eluding to the fact that if we have 2 picks before Reef, we can get 2 first rounders then bid on Reef and get 3,if Reef gets bid on early we only get 2... He's not saying Reef is a bad pick

I think the earliest a bid comes for McInnes is the Bombers at pick 8 which is worth 1,551 points. Our 20% discount means that equates to pick 12 or 1240 points. If we've got 3 1st round picks and then use our 1st to match that then we'd still have 2x 1st's or at worst 1x 1st and 1x very early 2nd. The real bonus would be grabbing the 3x 1st round players and then McInnes.