Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[Mutt]

Lets say he is being offered $450K and we are only prepared to pay $300K. $150K is <2% of the salary cap. Is that a good reason to let go a 23yo key forward?

How many players can we afford to give 50% more to than we think they are worth? We'd soon run out of cap space if we did that.

I want to keep Jones, but paying significant overs for any player makes it very difficult to keep the rest of your list happy and to re-sign our gun kids over the next couple of years. It's also $150k a year less that we have to secure a gun player via trade or free agency when the right opportunity arises.

 

[TedDougChris]

I just hope people are prepared for a world of pain next year if Minson is traded... We saw in the VFL GF how important ruck clearances are in close contests, late in games.. Yet we are happy for our only ruckman capable of 4 quarters against the best big men and big men combinations - to walk out the door - and just hope we can get a replacement ??

The Macca thread will be 1300 pages this time next year and everyone will be saying it's all about coaching. It's not, List Management plays it's part.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

I just hope people are prepared for a world of pain next year if Minson is traded... We saw in the VFL GF how important ruck clearances are in close contests, late in games.. Yet we are happy for our only ruckman capable of 4 quarters against the best big men and big men combinations - to walk out the door - and just hope we can get a replacement ??

The Macca thread will be 1300 pages this time next year and everyone will be saying it's all about coaching. It's not, List Management plays it's part.

If the Big Min is traded, i am 100% certain we will go with a 2 man ruck combo all year. I think the lone hand minson played was devalopmentally forced rather then desired in the first place. If he is gone, we know he will be gone before the draft. It will be Campbell and Cordy, and look to us drafting another ruck as a result. If the VFL is a template, then i think duel rucks of different type is the intention for the firsts.

There will be some pain as Campbell is not quite ready, but will have to get the rest of his devalopment the hard way if minson is traded. Maybe that's what he needs to get his diploma. I personally have a gut feeling that minson is going to drop in form quite steeply from here on in. He peaked, but was never elite, so his peak was only one season, and then the chairlift down.

 

[fronkalicious]

I suspect pain next year regardless of whether minson is here or not. Not underselling his importance. He's a beast and we'd be worse off without him, but I don't see a push for finals for us in 2015 regardless

 

[doggies ftw]

If we could secure 4 top 30 picks then I would be happy to trade probably one of those in the later 20's for Shaw from GC if we could get him and then use the rest in the draft. I wouldn't be against drafting Laverde at 6 (pending Frawley compo) particularly if McCartin, Wright, Durdin we assume will all be gone before then. 14 or that other pick we can get for the minno trade is where it gets interesting hypothetically we could get another classy user like Duggan at 14 and then use that remaining pick in the 20's on a tall (McKenzie/McDonald/Keitel) + Cordy and Foster in the later rounds.
That gives us

3 outside users with speed and skills (Laverde, Duggan, Shaw) 2 of which would probably slot straight into best 22
3 KPP 2 Tall forwards McKenzie/Keitel and Foster and 1 Tall defender in Cordy (which is my prefered options after the first round)
Plus leaving us absolute truckload of money for FA, BiG FORWARD BIG DEFENDER HELLO!!!

I'm confident between Roberts, Talia, Jones, Stringer and company will naturally improve and help our spine.
But these options I have mention almost overnight addresses our lack of pace and ability to hit targets in the one offseason and our balance of inside and outside mids plus rebounding defenders matches perfectly.
Check this out for a more balanced team than we have presently

Picken, Roberts Morris
Murphy, Talia, Wood
JJ, Libba, Macrae
Crameri, Jones, Hunter
Roughy, Stringer, Dahl
Campbell, Griffen, Wallis
Shaw, Laverde, Bontempelli, Dickson/Duggan/Grant etc

We then have a far better use of ball going into Stringer at full forward who in current form slots a huge haul of goals next season.
A great balance of inside ball getters and quick ball users.
Another season in our spine who will get better service in the forward line and cover for retirees such a Morris (with Cordy), Boyd (Duggan) etc and potentially for players who want out Jones (McKenzie) and Wood (Laverde).
Huge amounts of cash to splash on a KPF and a KPD who is ready to go and their age bracket of (22 - 26) will match perfectly with our young mid brigade.

I am happy to go one more season trialing our young spine next season. However if that doesn't work everything, cash and early 2015 draft picks go straight onto the FA/Trade table to fix holes we have hypothetically at say CHF and or CHB. No doubt though our midfield and flanks will be the envy of the competition.

Yeah I quite like the idea of not doing anything stupid this year and just keep building the core and then next year if our KPPs don't come good (which I think quite a few just might) then we can go hard at one then. I also like the idea of getting Shaw if its at a reasonable price, fits what we're looking for and is the right age. Would be happy to bring him in, any idea if he's even gettable though? You've brought in a nice balance of smalls and talls there, personally though I'd be looking for 2 outside ball users and 4 KPP rather than 3 and 3. So swap Laverde for Lever (or whoever, if any, is there out of Wright/McCartin/Durdin), or Duggan for Goddard/Marchbank. We will be completely turning over our rookie list so we should look at getting a few of those outside types there where you can usually find some gems (JJ and Dahl etc), you'd be expecting at least 1 - 2 AFL quality players from a full rookie turnover these days, we'd need a mature ruck too if Minno did leave. Still very keen on Sam Reid if the price is right too.

 

[AdamMarrett]

Sorry to intrude lads, if Port are interested in Liam Jones what realistically be involved in a trade to satisfy your mob?And how highly rated is he at the kennel? Haven't seen alot of him just heard his name bandied about as a Port trade target

 

[doggies ftw]

I wouldn't say Campbells not ready, I wouldn't say he definitely is either but you can't make a call either way because he hasn't had a chance to show if he is or isnt, the one week he was going to get that chance he was dominating until he went off in the first with an injury. He will be 23 next year with another preseason in him (you'd expect us to be really ramping things up this preseason too), Ayce and Roughy will be 24. This is about the age talls can just come good, those 3 could handle the year in the ruck I reckon. Get a mature age as back up.

 

[Sam95]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/ba...engineering-exam/story-fndv8weh-1227068251424 not sure if srs or not

 

[fronkalicious]

I wouldn't say Campbells not ready, I wouldn't say he definitely is either but you can't make a call either way because he hasn't had a chance to show if he is or isnt, the one week he was going to get that chance he was dominating until he went off in the first with an injury. He will be 23 next year with another preseason in him (you'd expect us to be really ramping things up this preseason too), Ayce and Roughy will be 24. This is about the age talls can just come good, those 3 could handle the year in the ruck I reckon. Get a mature age as back up.

Definitely not ready doggies. Not fit enough. I'm a big fan but he's a couple of years away yet from taking the number 1 role

 

[Dogsman16]

Sorry to intrude lads, if Port are interested in Liam Jones what realistically be involved in a trade to satisfy your mob?And how highly rated is he at the kennel? Haven't seen alot of him just heard his name bandied about as a Port trade target

Its an Interesting argument about Jonesy's value as somedays he looks worthy of a top 20 pick and then other days hes outside the top 40 in terms of value. I know St Kilda fans think that they could get for Jones with a pick in the very late 30's yet they believe that Stanley plus that late 2nd rounder could get them your first pick which is absolute rubbish. Jones has shown more talent and ability that Stanley has so I think in terms of a trade you would have to give us a better pick if you were weighing up Jones v Stanley. That being said I don't think we could get anything more than maybe your second rounder + steak knives and that steak knives being of little value. But we want to keep him so we will see what happens.

 

[AdamMarrett]

Its an Interesting argument about Jonesy's value as somedays he looks worthy of a top 20 pick and then other days hes outside the top 40 in terms of value. I know St Kilda fans think that they could get for Jones with a pick in the very late 30's yet they believe that Stanley plus that late 2nd rounder could get them your first pick which is absolute rubbish. Jones has shown more talent and ability that Stanley has so I think in terms of a trade you would have to give us a better pick if you were weighing up Jones v Stanley. That being said I don't think we could get anything more than maybe your second rounder + steak knives and that steak knives being of little value. But we want to keep him so we will see what happens.

Thanks for that.Is he out of contract or the more likely thing his name is just being thrown around?

 

[StringyDog]

How many players can we afford to give 50% more to than we think they are worth? We'd soon run out of cap space if we did that.

I want to keep Jones, but paying significant overs for any player makes it very difficult to keep the rest of your list happy and to re-sign our gun kids over the next couple of years. It's also $150k a year less that we have to secure a gun player via trade or free agency when the right opportunity arises.

Correct, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and take the punt if they are an important structural piece. This trade period is going to tell us a lot about Jason McCartney, his job as list manager so far has been pretty underwhelming I feel with the retention of players that should have been let go over past couple of years as they obviously were not going to make it, poor rookie list management and now has some key structure players that need to be kept. Maybe we have a 800 page thread about the wrong Macca...

 

[TedDougChris]

If the Big Min is traded, i am 100% certain we will go with a 2 man ruck combo all year. I think the lone hand minson played was devalopmentally forced rather then desired in the first place. If he is gone, we know he will be gone before the draft. It will be Campbell and Cordy, and look to us drafting another ruck as a result. If the VFL is a template, then i think duel rucks of different type is the intention for the firsts.

There will be some pain as Campbell is not quite ready, but will have to get the rest of his devalopment the hard way if minson is traded. Maybe that's what he needs to get his diploma. I personally have a gut feeling that minson is going to drop in form quite steeply from here on in. He peaked, but was never elite, so his peak was only one season, and then the chairlift down.

We need to inject some size and speed into our lineup, as well as kicking/disposal skills.

Having to play 2 ruckman, instead of one - due to deciding to trade the only guy on our list who can ruck solo for a full game - will not help with the speed component. Cordy is agile, there is no doubting that for a man his size, but neither he or Campbell are capable for 4 quarters. In fact, we only have limited evidence that Cordy is capable - full stop. I think he has come a long way this year, but expecting him to be a key forward target and #2 ruck - for an entire season - is optimistic in my opinion on what we've seen so far.

I just hope the supporters and members of this forum are ready for what will happen ALL of next season - if this Minson trade occurs. You'll have 23 weeks, plus the pre and off-season - of Macca can't coach, when are you going to sack Macca, Barrett and other halfwits writing that we are irrelevant again....

I might take another year away from here....

 

[Dry Rot]

Thanks for that.Is he out of contract or the more likely thing his name is just being thrown around?

he is out of contract, not a FA

 

[AdamMarrett]

he is out of contract, not a FA

Cheers didn't think he'd be a FA due to his age.

 

[Gmod23]

Thanks for that.Is he out of contract or the more likely thing his name is just being thrown around?

As he is a KPF, I think you will need your first rounder for him. He might not be a star yet, but we have built his muscle and stamina up enough to finally play a 4 quarter game....
I suspect we keep him.

 

[AdamMarrett]

As he is a KPF, I think you will need your first rounder for him. He might not be a star yet, but we have built his muscle and stamina up enough to finally play a 4 quarter game....
I suspect we keep him.

Would be fair for a young key forward with alot of investment being put in him by your club.Would have to agree with on you lot keeping him as I'd say our 1st rounder maybe tied up in Ryder if that pans out.Anyway thanks for the info good luck for 2015 and the off season

 

[yebiga]

Between Campbell and the Ruckman we have tried to convert into a defender we are ready for life post Minson. I will miss him. Big Red too, may not be ready for the big time up forward just yet but he is ready for the second ruck role and well ahead of Cordy.

If Minson can land us an early second round pick, it needs to be seriously considered as it is likely to help us fill areas we are deficient in. I would consider it quite astute trading and a feather in the cap of our list management team.

Losing jones, however, is not an option. The club is just going to have to suck it up and pay what is required. Honestly, they should have extending his contract last year and avoided this possibility.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

Now I have been working on a theory for most of the year, on how we've been building our team since macca got to the club.

The things we know about what macca's about.
- he likes players who can win their own ball, big bodied players playing finals footy week in week out, ala swans hawks and cats.

- he likes players that can play in multiple areas

-he didn't like the way williamstown was developing our players, and always seen an importance of having a stand alone VFL side.

First of I think the club knew that they couldn't waste the cal ward compo pick, knowing how deep the 2012 that it was best for the club do what they could to get the best players early in that draft.
With this they a few years ago had a meeting with some greats regarding F/S and how they were going to go about picking them up, for example this year may have a focus on KPP in the draft, because we know that we might fill other needs in the next few drafts with F/S

This has been talked about in other threads, but looking at our VFL side all year we always seemed to pick a more traditional side ie 3 tall backs, 3 tall forwards and the rest mids, cam mooney said on AFL360 that when he and Scarlett got to the club that the young KPP weren't at the point of their development as they should have been, and that scarlo and him have been getting them up to speed.

So having them play together the way the we want at VFL level isn't going to hurt us, winning it was just a bonus.

Look at players such as rough Roberts jaksch stringer crameri bonti, these are players that can play multiple positions even giving wallis tagging roles is about teaching him and adding stuff to his game.

With murphy Boyd Morris and cooney there next year by this time next year we could see some real change in that side, for example Roberts and talia playing the KPB

 

[Unorth]

It's common knowledge that we got belted by most kpp's, but seeing the brownlow votes counted made it set in. I'll include those that got one vote for the sake of it.

Rd.1: 3 votes Lecras
Rd.3: 1 vote Riewoldt
Rd.5: 2 votes Henderson
Rd.6: 1 vote Podsiadly
Rd.10: 2 votes Lynch
Rd.13: 3 votes Cloke
Rd.14: 3 votes Schulz
Rd.18: 3 votes Carlisle
Rd.19: 3 votes Roughead
Rd.20: 1 vote Gwilt*
Rd.22: 2 votes Franklin

*Odd one this, as he played most of the match in defence, but kicked 3 in a short stint up forward...I guess that qualifies

Our backline probably needs as much attention as our forward line. Here's hoping Roberts and Talia become what they've shown they can be.

 

[josh the gent]

Whilst I am mindful of losing too many senior players at 1 time can cause a Melbourne, I think our younger leaders now have enough games in them to cover the bleeding.

Along with Gia and Williams (who didnt really impact this year's games anyway, there are 3 other senior players we could realistically lose.

Higgins for a second rd pick.
Minson + pick 27... for pick 15 + Smedts (Geelong).
Cooney + pick 28... for pick 16 (North Melbourne.

I would be fairly confident that the void from those players out could be covered by our current young talent.

It would give us picks 5, 15, 16, 45, etc. Plus Smedts on our list.

 

[paul scholes]

I just hope people are prepared for a world of pain next year if Minson is traded... We saw in the VFL GF how important ruck clearances are in close contests, late in games.. Yet we are happy for our only ruckman capable of 4 quarters against the best big men and big men combinations - to walk out the door - and just hope we can get a replacement ??

The Macca thread will be 1300 pages this time next year and everyone will be saying it's all about coaching. It's not, List Management plays it's part.

So what's your solution ?
Keep playing Campbell and Cordy at Footscray for 5 years?

 

[paul scholes]

Whilst I am mindful of losing too many senior players at 1 time can cause a Melbourne, I think our younger leaders now have enough games in them to cover the bleeding.

Along with Gia and Williams (who didnt really impact this year's games anyway, there are 3 other senior players we could realistically lose.

Higgins for a second rd pick.
Minson + pick 27... for pick 15 + Smedts (Geelong).
Cooney + pick 28... for pick 16 (North Melbourne.

I would be fairly confident that the void from those players out could be covered by our current young talent.

It would give us picks 5, 15, 16, 45, etc. Plus Smedts on our list.

Let's keep Smedts on Geelongs list
Poor kick

 

[timtamWB]

So what's your solution ?
Keep playing Campbell and Cordy at Footscray for 5 years?

Don't take two ruckmen that have played 20 games each and go "Ok, we've got rid of Minson. We're challenging for the 8 this year. You guys are carrying the ruck division, good luck "

Keep Minson, but rest him a few times, have Cordy/Campbell be the ruckmen in a few games with no Minson or anyone else to help out. If they're ready, then Minson can go end of next year. But don't just throw them in the deep end.

 

[paul scholes]

Between Campbell and the Ruckman we have tried to convert into a defender we are ready for life post Minson. I will miss him. Big Red too, may not be ready for the big time up forward just yet but he is ready for the second ruck role and well ahead of Cordy.

If Minson can land us an early second round pick, it needs to be seriously considered as it is likely to help us fill areas we are deficient in. I would consider it quite astute trading and a feather in the cap of our list management team.

Losing jones, however, is not an option. The club is just going to have to suck it up and pay what is required. Honestly, they should have extending his contract last year and avoided this possibility.

So in 2 to 3 years when Bonts stringer Macrae Libba come out of contract and want more coin, were stuck with a heavy contract for Jones( who has become John Coleman on here)
Been on the list for 5 years, and he should be killing it at that level)
The club should keep its offer on the table and not be held to ransom by an under performed player.