Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[dergert]

Interesting that Robbo mentioned this in his tackle article today............. can't disagree.​

LET THE BAKERS BAKE​

POWER struggles between coaches and recruiters are common. As a rule, coaches are fixated on the short-term and recruiters the long-term. Suspect Billy Gowers and Robbie McComb are examples of recruiters getting overruled at the Bulldogs. Gowers played 33 games and no finals while McComb from all reports is a quality person and star VFL player. But he also turns 27 this year and doesn’t appear to be the sort of player who will take the Dogs to the promised land. Teenage debutant Dominic Bedendo on the other hand, taken with a late pick in 2020, showed plenty of promise, particularly in the first half. All recruiters will tell you that’s the wiser investment.

This is the shit that puts a sour taste in my mouth about Beveridge.

 

[ScragCity]

In case anyone hasn't figured it out by now:

The best performing player from Footscray every year is given a spot on the senior list. The theory is that this will attract more VFL talent to Footscray which benefits the senior team. The cost of this program is typically a late rookie pick and a list spot being occupied, which is absolutely minuscule. There's nothing myopic about this as a strategy; it's a long-term plan. The fact that the Robbie McCombs and Anthony Scotts have been used at all is a bonus. That list spot would quite often be occupied by some project player who may or may not ever debut in the seniors.

 

[Doggies_13]

Anthony Scott was a bees dick away from playing in a grand final last year so whilst I generally agree with what Robbo is saying, it's not exactly black and white is it?

One here and there isn’t an issue it’s when it’s one every single year and they are retained on the list so after doing it for 4-5 years you have 5 spots taken up by guys who are fringe/depth players at best with no legitimate ability to significantly develop to become a core part of your team. And that’s 5 less players with scope to develop.

Look back at past rookies we took in their teens to early twenties.

Picken 23
Morris 23
Boyd 20
JJ 19
Harbrow 19

We have moved away from using the rookie draft to take guys with potential and scope to improve. Instead we have used it to retain players that aren’t quite up to it or injury prone or to bring in players who could only improve via being in a system not improve through age and natural development.

 

[Testekill]

I'd be all for launching hard for Ben McKay.

3 disposals tonight. He's wasted in norfs forward line.

Wait wait wait, they're play McKay (a pretty solid defender) as a forward? Have they just run out of options up forward or are they sabotaging him?

 

[Al dente]

Anthony Scott was a bees dick away from playing in a grand final last year so whilst I generally agree with what Robbo is saying, it's not exactly black and white is it?

Coaches (Bevo at least) also understand the long term cultural value of promoting from within and rewarding work ethic. He's not promoting those guys just as stop gaps cause theyre mature bodies, he's building unity and club loyalty and giving VFL guys aspirational hope. Of cause robbo wouldnt understand that.

Its complex. having your Hayes, Roarke, Gardy, Gowers, McComb, Scott et al types rotate through the side is part of the reason we havent won enough H&A games for top 4, we rarely seem to play our 'best' or 'most talented' side. but it also probably keeps us in the hunt longer. Youve gotta have some cheapies playing at your bottom end, and better to be guys people root for within the club, otherwise you end up topping out your cap and free falling.

 

[doggies ftw]

In case anyone hasn't figured it out by now:

The best performing player from Footscray every year is given a spot on the senior list. The theory is that this will attract more VFL talent to Footscray which benefits the senior team. The cost of this program is typically a late rookie pick and a list spot being occupied, which is absolutely minuscule. There's nothing myopic about this as a strategy; it's a long-term plan. The fact that the Robbie McCombs and Anthony Scotts have been used at all is a bonus. That list spot would quite often be occupied by some project player who may or may not ever debut in the seniors.

How’s that theory working out in the VFL though? I don’t exactly see talent knocking down the door to play for our VFL side, actually I think our VFL listed right now is worse than it’s been for years - there’s not a single player getting around this year even close to being AFL standard.

Plus it’s not just the list spot it’s the 10 games he’s then been gifted that’s the real problem, and probably another year, after Hayes wasted a list spot for years like Dogs 36 mentioned we’ll end up with multiple spuds with no upside wasting precious list spots we could be using.

More than happy to use VFL team as a feeder club and bring in the best undrafted 19 yos and especially for talls where we can watch them develop without using a list spot - yet we have what, one tall on the VFL list who regularly plays?

Taking the best scrappy midfielder who obviously dominates at VFL level but has no place on AFL list every year is just stupid

 

[W W Biscuit]

We need to have some balls this year and make some big moves at the trade table. Naughton has more trade capital than any other player on the list. Let clubs know that he's gettable and let's see what offers come in.

With any luck, we can offload Naughton for an elite key position player exactly like Naughton.

 

[ScragCity]

One here and there isn’t an issue it’s when it’s one every single year and they are retained on the list so after doing it for 4-5 years you have 5 spots taken up by guys who are fringe/depth players at best with no legitimate ability to significantly develop to become a core part of your team. And that’s 5 less players with scope to develop.

Look back at past rookies we took in their teens to early twenties.

Picken 23
Morris 23
Boyd 20
JJ 19
Harbrow 19

We have moved away from using the rookie draft to take guys with potential and scope to improve. Instead we have used it to retain players that aren’t quite up to it or injury prone or to bring in players who could only improve via being in a system not improve through age and natural development.

5 spots? What a load of hyperbolic crap. Of all the rookies and late picks on our list, only two were taken as mature-aged. We haven't held onto the Gowers, Hayes and Cavarra types for very long.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

I don't get the Lobb interest. He's a spud who plays 2 good games a year. We've got Darcy coming through who could be better.

We need to be targeting guys from the best team with the most salary cap pressure. This is Melbourne. Should be looking at Tom Sparrow if he's available. I reckon this guy's about to explode and would be a good Dunkley replacement.

I wonder if there’s a delay when targeting someone and actually recruiting them. Last year we all wanted a ruckman and everyone was disappointed when it didn’t happen. Could that be because we had Lobb in our plans for 2023? Similarly maybe we’re looking around for a KPD but it could be a 2 year targeted plan. I would think that anyone coming out of contract this year is probably already deep into negotiations with other clubs already starting from last year. Opportunistic Treloar deals at the death only come around once in a while.

 

[adogsfan5]

Wait wait wait, they're play McKay (a pretty solid defender) as a forward? Have they just run out of options up forward or are they sabotaging him?

For structure to help Larkey. Noble is doneskie.

 

[ScragCity]

How’s that theory working out in the VFL though? I don’t exactly see talent knocking down the door to play for our VFL side, actually I think our VFL listed right now is worse than it’s been for years - there’s not a single player getting around this year even close to being AFL standard.

Plus it’s not just the list spot it’s the 10 games he’s then been gifted that’s the real problem, and probably another year, after Hayes wasted a list spot for years like Dogs 36 mentioned we’ll end up with multiple spuds with no upside wasting precious list spots we could be using.

More than happy to use VFL team as a feeder club and bring in the best undrafted 19 yos and especially for talls where we can watch them develop without using a list spot - yet we have what, one tall on the VFL list who regularly plays?

Taking the best scrappy midfielder who obviously dominates at VFL level but has no place on AFL list every year is just stupid

Well our last two VFL ladders finishes were first and second...

 

[doggies ftw]

Well our last two VFL ladders finishes were first and second...

Yeah we have a really deep list when it comes to fringe afl level players, if you’ve watched a VFL game over the past few seasons feel free to let me know what VFL talent you think could be on an AFL list, if you haven’t well probably not worth continuing this conversation

 

[Mofra]

Feel like Fletcher Roberts was actually what the club think Gardner is. Good honest defender that you should eek 100-ish games from.

He’d of been much more serviceable than Gardner.

Roberts and Gardner are polar opposites - Fletch an elite kick, but slow as a wet week and 10kg too light for his style of play at AFL level.
Gardner disposal is shaky and can occasionally be a half-step behind his opponent to react but he's super quick and a very good spoiler.

Gardner is a Danial Cross-like trainer so I still expect he will improve with time.

 

[Mofra]

Anthony Scott was a bees dick away from playing in a grand final last year so whilst I generally agree with what Robbo is saying, it's not exactly black and white is it?

Scott was almost rookied by us when he was playing VAFA (coming second in the comp B&F - behind one Ayce Cordy).
There are issues with list management but Scott is an ok, AFL standard wingman. I don't he's a great defender but our 3 first-choice small defenders ahead of him were injured. He was a PSD pick anyway.

Butler (no disrespect to the kid) was the pick we should have gone tall. Late pick, HB we thought we could turn into a wingman. If we're going to take a late hail-mary pick, list needs should be considered.

 

[doggiesin08]

Yeah we have a really deep list when it comes to fringe afl level players, if you’ve watched a VFL game over the past few seasons feel free to let me know what VFL talent you think could be on an AFL list, if you haven’t well probably not worth continuing this conversation

It seemed to work when we were getting guys like Mitch Hannan, Ben Long, Darcy Fort, Jordan Boyd, etc. onto the VFL list but for whatever reason that hasn't happened in the last couple of years.

 

[ScragCity]

Yeah we have a really deep list when it comes to fringe afl level players, if you’ve watched a VFL game over the past few seasons feel free to let me know what VFL talent you think could be on an AFL list, if you haven’t well probably not worth continuing this conversation

I think you'll find that there's not much AFL level talent in the VFL. When there is, it gets scooped up quickly by an AFL club. The purpose of attracting VFL talent to Footscray isn't so that we can then draft those players into the senior list. That would make no sense given that AFL clubs can draft from any VFL side. The purpose is to have a Footscray team that is performing well. That benefits the AFL side through a few mechanisms. Quite a few of our AFL listed players have to play VFL at any one time, so having a competitive, winning culture benefits the AFL boys. It's also better practice for AFL if they are playing in a strong and cohesive team.

 

[BallaratBulldog]

No issue with the footscray promotions, but don’t gift them games like McComb when there are better options for best 22. Particularly when other players aren’t afforded those chances.

Hopefully in the future those promotions can be for a tall or defender that are harder to get and worth more of a punt.

 

[Next Waiting]

I quite liked him but I think we're rewriting history a little about Roberts' ability. He played some decent games but really wasn't on much of a different level for almost all of his career to what Gardner is. Gardner is definitely in a slump right now but there's a reason why Roberts played so much VFL.

Fletch played 2 excellent games for the club. One was a prelim, the other a granny. He also got Footscray through a split decision final with an after the siren 60m bomb to win it and progress. Whatever his home and away limitations, he stood up when it mattered.

 

[Hobdog]

So what if we typically have one or two mature-aged VFL stars on our list? If you think that's one of our major problems then you are, quite frankly, an idiot.

I also think we look at our own club and list as though it’s the only one with a player who isn’t a superstar. Guarantee every club board on bigfooty would have posters lamenting the selection of player x or y.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

With any luck, we can offload Naughton for an elite key position player exactly like Naughton.

We'd need to throw in steak knives though, like Bontempelli or Macrae.

 

[ScragCity]

I also think we look at our own club and list as though it’s the only one with a player who isn’t a superstar. Guarantee every club board on bigfooty would have posters lamenting the selection of player x or y.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

I think people have a hard time understanding the concept that AFL talent is a scarce resource, which all clubs are competing for under the constraints of a salary cap. The top end of the list receives the majority of the money. If you want to look at where an AFL list has been mismanaged, then you should be looking at the best 22 players, where 95% of the clubs capital has been spent, not the bottom 10 players who will invariably be pretty shit at every single club.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Where's this idea that we "guarantee" a VFL list spot to players comes from? I assumed it was just what we thought was the best recruit at the time. You look at the mechanisms of getting them on the list and I think it really applies to two out of five players. Scott's list spot only came open after Sam Lloyd

22

Sam Lloyd

Age

34

Ht

180cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

8.8

3star

HB

4.5

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

G

1.3

5star

D

6.8

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.8

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

14.0

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.4

5star

G

1.4

5star

and we still made him earn the spot over the entire pre-season training with two others. Gardner was a MSD pick. Hayes was a ND pick that was valid on its merits given VFL formwould have gone to another club on the rookie draft and has fought his way back onto another different AFL list.

It's really only McComb (where the argument can be made that we should have passed the rookie pick and asked him to fight for a SSP list spot but I'm sure we have our reasons why we didn't do that) and Gowers (which Bev went over the top or Dal/McCartney causing them to leave) where you can say we've emphasised our VFL team too much.

If Sam Lloyd

22

Sam Lloyd

Age

34

Ht

180cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

8.8

3star

HB

4.5

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

G

1.3

5star

D

6.8

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.8

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.8

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

14.0

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.4

5star

G

1.4

5star

never retires we don't have a list spot for Scott and we never recruit him, and we could have signed someone like Corey Preston in that spot anyway. Does it suggest we "guaranteed" that spot? Does Ryan Gardner

43

Ryan Gardner

Age

27

Ht

197cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

3.3

3star

M

2.0

2star

T

0.8

3star

MG

45.0

1star

D

8.5

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.0

2star

MG

45.0

1star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

3.3

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

0.8

3star

MG

45.0

1star

even count given that I'm assuming we were very close to adding him onto the main AFL in the off-season anyway?

 

[Optimistic Dog]

This is the s**t that puts a sour taste in my mouth about Beveridge.

Probably in Bevo's DNA as a coach when you think of his background at St Bedes. He must have seen a few battlers develop into role players during their rise from C to A premiers. At present he has backed in Gardner and McComb no doubt good blokes that give 100% but very limited skills. Even to the extent that Gardner deserves a game with our limited current tall defenders. However backing in Gardner cost us Lewis Young a taller more skilled player.

Hope backing in McComb does not cost us Bedendo.

 

[TedDougChris]

I have no issue with the idea of having Footscray players picked up and promoted through the draft - but we need to be getting the right players in.

How do we do that ??

We might need to have some selective articles written, highlighting that we do have this policy and we do promote internally and perhaps small, speedy forwards, key defenders or ruck/forwards looking for a shot should sign up with Footscray for next year.

However - that requires alignment internally - as Bevo then ignoring it and picking up a poorly skilled undersized mid type just ruins that planning.

 

[Doggies7]

Slow down Lobbster, don't want to have to give up too much.