Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Libbaaaa]

So Geelong can offer Smith 900k a year over 5 years but when it comes to trade value can only offer a pick in the teens. And I bet we just cop it...

Like 99% of AFL trades, once the player nominates its a done deal, can't bash the club for that.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Re: English… If you didn’t know the result Vs Port, and more importantly didn’t actually WATCH the game, his stats of 17 possessions (13kicks, 4 h/b’s) 8 marks (inc 3 contested), 2 goals, 5 tackles, and 24 hit outs, you’d reckon he had a pretty serviceable, borderline “excellent” game!
Real enigma, is the lad..

Yet he was absolute awful and had zero presence. Looking back starting him forward and Darcy in the ruck was also head scratching.

 

[bigdog54]

Like 99% of AFL trades, once the player nominates its a done deal, can't bash the club for that.

Yeah it's shit. I was being critical of Geelong rather than bashing our club. Send him to hawthorn if we have to.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Not at all, just that they play different primary positions and also have far more versatility in playing different positions.

Garcia can basically play two positions: onballer and forward that pushes up as to the contest as onballer.

Team balance in positions and fitting players into a role is far more important at a marginal talent level than shoehorning a player who is 5% better, maybe the 21st best player on your list vs the 25th, into a position or role they're not suited.



For instance, he's still 5th in the competition among rucks for intercept possessions per game average.

His 11 goals kicked is the most for any player in the league who is primarily playing as a first ruck.

These two things combined, he is still offering value well above that of an average first ruck by pushing forward and back and getting separation from the opponent ruck that is meant to run with him, which will not be matched by a significant margin by other rucks in the league (e.g. Kieran Briggs 0 goals in 16 games).

His hitout to advantage rate of 32.1% is rank 1 for any first ruck who has played 10+ games this year, which is not to say that he's overall a good tap ruck in all contests, but it mitigates some of the poor nature of the fact he fails to usually win the hitout battle (which comes into criticism), and means some of our clearance win rate can be attributed to his hitout to advantage win rates. I'm not saying it's good, just that there's some fair mitigation people don't recognise.

I'm not saying he hasn't dropped off versus an all-Australian year last year, or even can be considered good, but over the course of this year he's still played up to the ability of a established, best-22 ruck that can still rightfully be considered a top-10 ruck in the league, and many of the games people consider he plays are "bad" are probably less bad in accumulation if he kicks 1 goal vs. 0 or gets 5 intercept possessions vs another ruck's 4 or whatever. If he's to earn 800k a year on a contract over the next 5 years or whatever, that would make him on average about the 6th or 8th best paid ruck in the league over the course of the deal, which is probably fair, and one that we as a club might get value from, if he ever returns to AA form, which is possible, given if he doesn't get any more concussions and moves past that stage of his career.

Put the stats aside for a moment - if you can, you seem to be almost obsessive in your defence of English.

A ruckman, any ruckman, needs a presence, and degree of physicality as part of their psyche - it helps set the tone for his team mates, and puts doubt in oppo players minds if he's in a contest.

Most AFL ruckman have it, regardless of degree of skill. As someone who was a tall mid until late in his under age career when a growth spurt kicked in, and possibly concussion issues adding to his seeming to often avoid CB/around the ground rucking full on contact (I'm not blaming him for either of those btw, just highlighting why I think he plays the way he does), there is no tone set by Tim.

Whether it's Gawn, Grundy, Sweet, or further back Wynd, Darcy, Dean Cox, even Xerri, Mason Cox, Nankervis - the one thing they all bring is the ability to absorb and inflict physicality in their ruck work.

English has shown it very rarely. I could live with that if he used his own attributes to advantage more often. But what frustrates me more than his total lack of physicality is how he watches the oppo ruck at centre bounces, and adjusts his movement based on them. He has a leap and reach he rarely utilises. Personally I think that has become more of an issue following concussions. He is good enough and smart enough to work around his avoidance of full on contact. But he never does. And the coaching panel are complicit in accepting that.

English is a tall mid in a ruckman's body. And not a particularly imposing forward either, other than his height. Personally I can't see him returning to AA form. Darcy is already a better forward, and more physical ruck and he's a stick.

 

[54Bulldog16]

All faith in Sam Power

Sam Power

Age

41

Ht

190cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.7

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

7.8

2star

K

3.8

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.6

4star

.
Cats / Hawks offering big dollars and years negates the their perceived risk, or should I say leverage of the ACL and historic “off field issues”.
If Geelong, this and next years 1st with either this or next years 2nd going back.
They have the currency.

 

[Foxman98]

Put the stats aside for a moment - if you can, you seem to be almost obsessive in your defence of English.

A ruckman, any ruckman, needs a presence, and degree of physicality as part of their psyche - it helps set the tone for his team mates, and puts doubt in oppo players minds if he's in a contest.

Most AFL ruckman have it, regardless of degree of skill. As someone who was a tall mid until late in his under age career when a growth spurt kicked in, and possibly concussion issues adding to his seeming to often avoid CB/around the ground rucking full on contact (I'm not blaming him for either of those btw, just highlighting why I think he plays the way he does), there is no tone set by Tim.

Whether it's Gawn, Grundy, Sweet, or further back Wynd, Darcy, Dean Cox, even Xerri, Mason Cox, Nankervis - the one thing they all bring is the ability to absorb and inflict physicality in their ruck work.

English has shown it very rarely. I could live with that if he used his own attributes to advantage more often. But what frustrates me more than his total lack of physicality is how he watches the oppo ruck at centre bounces, and adjusts his movement based on them. He has a leap and reach he rarely utilises. Personally I think that has become more of an issue following concussions. He is good enough and smart enough to work around his avoidance of full on contact. But he never does. And the coaching panel are complicit in accepting that.

English is a tall mid in a ruckman's body. And not a particularly imposing forward either, other than his height. Personally I can't see him returning to AA form. Darcy is already a better forward, and more physical ruck and he's a stick.

Spot on with this,

Was level 1 on the wing for the North game 2 weeks ago and Xerri just ran across straight at him every time and he just let him and didn't try to adjust at all,

Has happened multiple times Grundy did similar and you just wonder why the coaching staff or he don't do anything different

 

[geoffjennings79]

Spot on with this,

Was level 1 on the wing for the North game 2 weeks ago and Xerri just ran across straight at him every time and he just let him and didn't try to adjust at all,

Has happened multiple times Grundy did similar and you just wonder why the coaching staff or he don't do anything different

I was at that game too, level 3 behind the goals, but looked the sane from there. Xerri had him psyched out from the start.

 

[ossie_21]

I was at that game too, level 3 behind the goals, but looked the sane from there. Xerri had him psyched out from the start.

I’d called it happening the week before the game, so I wonder why the professional coaching staff didn’t seem to have a plan?

There should be strategies every single week for every single player and every single opponent, a lot of the time we just appear to wing it and we hope to play better than they do.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Put the stats aside for a moment - if you can, you seem to be almost obsessive in your defence of English.

A ruckman, any ruckman, needs a presence, and degree of physicality as part of their psyche - it helps set the tone for his team mates, and puts doubt in oppo players minds if he's in a contest.

Most AFL ruckman have it, regardless of degree of skill. As someone who was a tall mid until late in his under age career when a growth spurt kicked in, and possibly concussion issues adding to his seeming to often avoid CB/around the ground rucking full on contact (I'm not blaming him for either of those btw, just highlighting why I think he plays the way he does), there is no tone set by Tim.

Whether it's Gawn, Grundy, Sweet, or further back Wynd, Darcy, Dean Cox, even Xerri, Mason Cox, Nankervis - the one thing they all bring is the ability to absorb and inflict physicality in their ruck work.

English has shown it very rarely. I could live with that if he used his own attributes to advantage more often. But what frustrates me more than his total lack of physicality is how he watches the oppo ruck at centre bounces, and adjusts his movement based on them. He has a leap and reach he rarely utilises. Personally I think that has become more of an issue following concussions. He is good enough and smart enough to work around his avoidance of full on contact. But he never does. And the coaching panel are complicit in accepting that.

English is a tall mid in a ruckman's body. And not a particularly imposing forward either, other than his height. Personally I can't see him returning to AA form. Darcy is already a better forward, and more physical ruck and he's a stick.

Not to disagree with any of this - English doesn't display any elements of physicality, or however you want to describe it, and it might inspire his teammates at micro levels.

I just can't agree that it provides any value to any comparable extent to the fact that English has pushed forward and kicked several goals this season, which are worth 6 scoreboard points, in a manner that other rucks haven't.

In a complicated league where coaches devise strategies, teams search for minute advantages in the form of strength and conditioning programs and the best professional punters all claim that even a good player being in and out of the team is only worth a few scoreboard points, I just can't accept that perceived aggression and absorbing physicality is worth anything more than a fraction of a scoreboard point on average on a scoreboard basis and is in any way remotely comparable than one additional instance of one game of getting defensively to a contest and taking an intercept mark.

I'm not dismissing it because it's not quantifiable, I'm dismissing it because nobody's proposed any evidence or justification of it being worth anything above a minute amount than "feels".

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Re: English… If you didn’t know the result Vs Port, and more importantly didn’t actually WATCH the game, his stats of 17 possessions (13kicks, 4 h/b’s) 8 marks (inc 3 contested), 2 goals, 5 tackles, and 24 hit outs, you’d reckon he had a pretty serviceable, borderline “excellent” game!
Real enigma, is the lad..

Which is all to say that even though the first, emotive response is to feel that he played a bad game, the overall result is that it probably wasn't quite as woeful as many are making it out to be once trying to dig deeper into how players contribute to results, which is my point to how it's extended to the entire season in general.

 

[glenashley]

English needs to step aside and be the fwd ruck that he is.

He's not a number 1 ruck.

 

[stefoid]

I’m not going to say English is ‘scared’, however….did anyone else notice English doing back in the third quarter, with his back facing the opposing PA player, marking contest approaching and English withdrew from the contest completely? Not a great look. Sure, he was likely to cop a high velocity collision but that’s what he gets paid for.

Oh, to have Scott Wynd back.

He might be one decent concussion away from retirement or worse.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

And what positions do the players I mentioned actually play well in?

You're trying to get me as a gotcha... but McNeil has demonstrated an ability to play on the wing, as a high half-forward, and as a genuine small.

Vandermeer's been locked in as our hard-running high half-forward for the entire season, but in previous seasons has played on the wing, at half-back and as a genuine small forward too.

Gallagher's primarily been on the wing, but has shown versatility to tag and play on ball (like Garcia) has and patches in various forward line roles this season.

All are playing different positions than Garcia, who is a ball-winning onballer, his 40-disposal games in the VFL proving that. You can hide maybe one or two of these players in your team without starting them at the centre bounce (as we are with Sanders and Macrae), but a modern structured AFL team needs certain players to crumb, certain players to create space, certain players to run fast and hard in transition in certain roles.

Vandermeer is playing a specific role to run hard on the half-forward flank on the outside of the contests. Garcia can't do that.

Teams also need to move magnets around, and it makes sense for the weakest player in the team to plug a hole. McNeil is no star, but has gotten a game this year because you can stick him in any of three defined, distinct roles at AFL levle (wing, high half-forward, crumbing small) and know that he'll take coaching, take direction, commit himself to the role etc.

This isn't to say that Garcia shouldn't still force his way into the side nevertheless, but it isn't controversial that he's dropped given that for certain roles he's competing with Sanders for a gig in the team (and people were angry when Sanders wasn't getting a game, too...), and comparing him to the likes of Vandermeer achieves nothing for the different roles they play. I get that both are vaguely small players who don't play in the centre bounce and play in the forward half of the ground so at first instinct it seems like they can play the same role, but they really can't - Garcia and Vandermeer are arguably just as different as players as comparing Weightman and Duryea, is some respects. You might drop one for the other to shift players up and down roles one step at at a time, but in direct comparison, they're playing completely different positions, which people don't seem to understand.

 

[Munnez]

All faith in Sam Power.
Cats / Hawks offering big dollars and years negates the their perceived risk, or should I say leverage of the ACL and historic “off field issues”.
If Geelong, this and next years 1st with either this or next years 2nd going back.
They have the currency.

No doubt a deal gets done but as per your post it doesn't have to be done for peanuts. You want a premium product and you being Geelong are saying that by the deal offered to Smith that he is. Then you need to pay a fair and reasonable bill 2 1st's which will be lateish with Geelong and a 2nd back isn't miles off the mark ....imo

 

[Spiritof82]

So Geelong can offer Smith 900k a year over 5 years but when it comes to trade value can only offer a pick in the teens. And I bet we just cop it...

One of the Geelong sponsors is Cotton On, so the cats don't need to offer too much officially as Smith's other employer (Cotton On) will cover any additional payments off the AFL's books as part of his contract with them and I'm sure some beach side properties along the surf coast will drop significantly in price at the same time

 

[ossie_21]

One of the Geelong sponsors is Cotton On, so the cats don't need to offer too much officially as Smith's other employer (Cotton On) will cover any additional payments off the AFL's books as part of his contract with them and I'm sure some beach side properties along the surf coast will drop significantly in price at the same time

The properties will also come with a brand new Ford Ranger for some odd reason that can’t be pinpointed. Probably a spare Ford Everest for immediate family members too could be found in Kardinia carpark

 

[yebach]

You're trying to get me as a gotcha... but McNeil has demonstrated an ability to play on the wing, as a high half-forward, and as a genuine small.

Vandermeer's been locked in as our hard-running high half-forward for the entire season, but in previous seasons has played on the wing, at half-back and as a genuine small forward too.

Gallagher's primarily been on the wing, but has shown versatility to tag and play on ball (like Garcia) has and patches in various forward line roles this season.

All are playing different positions than Garcia, who is a ball-winning onballer, his 40-disposal games in the VFL proving that. You can hide maybe one or two of these players in your team without starting them at the centre bounce (as we are with Sanders and Macrae), but a modern structured AFL team needs certain players to crumb, certain players to create space, certain players to run fast and hard in transition in certain roles.

Vandermeer is playing a specific role to run hard on the half-forward flank on the outside of the contests. Garcia can't do that.

Teams also need to move magnets around, and it makes sense for the weakest player in the team to plug a hole. McNeil is no star, but has gotten a game this year because you can stick him in any of three defined, distinct roles at AFL levle (wing, high half-forward, crumbing small) and know that he'll take coaching, take direction, commit himself to the role etc.

This isn't to say that Garcia shouldn't still force his way into the side nevertheless, but it isn't controversial that he's dropped given that for certain roles he's competing with Sanders for a gig in the team (and people were angry when Sanders wasn't getting a game, too...), and comparing him to the likes of Vandermeer achieves nothing for the different roles they play. I get that both are vaguely small players who don't play in the centre bounce and play in the forward half of the ground so at first instinct it seems like they can play the same role, but they really can't - Garcia and Vandermeer are arguably just as different as players as comparing Weightman and Duryea, is some respects. You might drop one for the other to shift players up and down roles one step at at a time, but in direct comparison, they're playing completely different positions, which people don't seem to understand.

I'm not trying to get you at anything. If you think Vandermeer, Gallagher & McNeil deserve a game before Garcia that's great. But I reckon most people that watch us play would disagree with you.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I'm not trying to get you at anything. If you think Vandermeer, Gallagher & McNeil deserve a game before Garcia that's great. But I reckon most people that watch us play would disagree with you.

The discussion and comparison needs to be deeper than just saying "one player is better than another" - the roles need to be recognised.

We manage to achieve it with other discussions ... "we can drop this tall, but this medium defender would have to play taller..." etc, but not for these other players.

 

[King Harold]

Not to disagree with any of this - English doesn't display any elements of physicality, or however you want to describe it, and it might inspire his teammates at micro levels.

I just can't agree that it provides any value to any comparable extent to the fact that English has pushed forward and kicked several goals this season, which are worth 6 scoreboard points, in a manner that other rucks haven't.

In a complicated league where coaches devise strategies, teams search for minute advantages in the form of strength and conditioning programs and the best professional punters all claim that even a good player being in and out of the team is only worth a few scoreboard points, I just can't accept that perceived aggression and absorbing physicality is worth anything more than a fraction of a scoreboard point on average on a scoreboard basis and is in any way remotely comparable than one additional instance of one game of getting defensively to a contest and taking an intercept mark.

I'm not dismissing it because it's not quantifiable, I'm dismissing it because nobody's proposed any evidence or justification of it being worth anything above a minute amount than "feels".

I think you underestimate the ruck position.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned watching for just on 60 years it’s still very important.
Back in the day when I played , around the Boer War years, it was the most important position.
Kicking the odd goal is a bonus. But rucks set the tone, they need to have a physical presence.
Often what they offer won’t show on a stat.

I will go as far as saying exchange English for Gawn this year and we would be pushing top 4.

 

[F6Typhoon]

The properties will also come with a brand new Ford Ranger for some odd reason that can’t be pinpointed. Probably a spare Ford Everest for immediate family members too could be found in Kardinia carpark

What, no Mustang Convertible?
Gotta let that mullet blow freely

 

[ossie_21]

I think you underestimate the ruck position.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned watching for just on 60 years it’s still very important.
Back in the day when I played , around the Boer War years, it was the most important position.
Kicking the odd goal is a bonus. But rucks set the tone, they need to have a physical presence.
Often what they offer won’t show on a stat.

I will go as far as saying exchange English for Gawn this year and we would be pushing top 4.

My brother in Christ, we would be top of the ladder if we had a ruck like Gawn

 

[BulldogMuscle]

Dogs are shopping for defenders this off season. We're putting the feelers out for both KPD's and small lockdown types, word is Duryea will be hanging up the boots end of season.

 

[Dogs Rule]

One of the Geelong sponsors is Cotton On, so the cats don't need to offer too much officially as Smith's other employer (Cotton On) will cover any additional payments off the AFL's books as part of his contract with them and I'm sure some beach side properties along the surf coast will drop significantly in price at the same time

Remember the AFL had an integrity unit? The ones that supposedly investigate s*** like this?

 

[Spiritof82]

Remember the AFL had an integrity unit? The ones that supposedly investigate s*** like this?

A few handouts from the sponsors to the AFL will solve this problem.

 

[Spiritof82]

The properties will also come with a brand new Ford Ranger for some odd reason that can’t be pinpointed. Probably a spare Ford Everest for immediate family members too could be found in Kardinia carpark

They'll do it the "honest" way, they'll have a raffle for the cars and for some strange reason Smith will take out all prizes, eventhough he didn't even buy a ticket