List Mgmt. Trade & F.A. 2017 (if a scenario sounds wrong - read on before posting)

[mike123]

BTW I still think Phillips can turn into a decent player (unlike Smith)

 

[BEEG]

Phillips disposal isn't that bad when you compare it to turnover merchants like Taylor Adams

Adams disposal is much better, not even close actually abd both play different roles.

 

[Mark W]

Phillips is not Vanilla. I've never seen him shirk a contest. He tackles. He puts his head over it when it's his turn. Is it just because he's outside?

If you are going to be outside, you need either pace, or good disposal skills, preferably both. Phillips has neither. To his credit, he runs tirelessly and finds a lot of the footy. But what he does with it! His handpassing is not bad, and I've seen him link up play quite well. BUt his kicking...nothing short of diabolical IMO! Far too many clangers, far too many rushed aimless kicks when under pressure, and I can't recall a Collingwood player who gets smothered so much. To be fair, he has only played 24 games, but I'm very pessimistic about him. Poise and composure is a pretty hard thing to learn..if we we were some highly skilled if slow team, his tireless running might be handy. But whilst 2 of our best mids have disposal issues, we simply can't afford to have too many role players with similar faults

 

[ccd23]

I don't believe you!

What you choose to believe doesn't concern me all that much. I guess we can revisit this in October.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Adams disposal is much better, not even close actually abd both play different roles.

Stats suggest you are wrong.

74% phillips v 70% adams efficiency
41 phillips v 96 adams clangers

 

[jonbe54]

Stats suggest you are wrong.

74% phillips v 70% adams efficiency
41 phillips v 96 adams clangers

There are lies
damned lies
and then stats

 

[esc0bar]

Phillips is a ripper for us. He's one of our best two way runners already. He helps balance our midfield and adds to our ability to defend or attack on transition. He puts his head over it when it's his go. He sneaks forward and kicks goals. His field kicking is fine outside of the occasional clanger, which all players do. He's an outside mid which we need. And he's still young. My biggest knock is his pace but shit, given what he gives us, that isn't so bad. He's being seriously underrated and valued in this thread.

My only concern is he runs around like a ugly duckling - let's hope he turns into our next Swan.

 

[Mark W]

Stats suggest you are wrong.

74% phillips v 70% adams efficiency
41 phillips v 96 adams clangers

Comparing disposal efficiency of inside and outside players isn't all that valid for obvious reasons. Neither player have good disposal skills, but many of Adams disposals are contested, under pressure

 

[Da Main Man]

6 for Hogan?

could help facilitate the Lever trade to Melb.

also;

Is Ben Lennon worth a very late round pickup? haven't seen a lot of him, and his stats scream spud. But could he just be starved of opportunity? I seem to remember big talk about him a few years back.

 

[westozpie]

Mayne getting paid $500k when worth half that.
Wells getting paid $600k when worth about $400k.

Apart from in your own mind can you show us where you have this as fact, and it doesn't count as fact some journalists drunken guesses.

 

[westozpie]

Comparing disposal efficiency of inside and outside players isn't all that valid for obvious reasons. Neither player have good disposal skills, but many of Adams disposals are contested, under pressure

Peter doesn't want to hear logic like this, goes against his grain

 

[wicksy]

That's not really an indication of what his ceiling is.

C'mon Mike... Most supporters would be stoked that a young player has won a rising star nom and will feature highly in the club bnf in their 2nd year.
It's not like the guy was a first round pick that was built to play seniors from the get go (ala Daniel Rich).
He came to the club a skinny kid taken at #58 (same pick as someone else we know ), tore Steele's 2km record in half, worked his way into the seniors and has not put a foot wrong since.

Yeah he turns it over every now and then but so does Jack Crisp, Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Steele Sidebottom etc etc.
He runs the other way harder than anyone in our team and is always providing an option.

This year, he averaged 21.1 disposals over 18 games with 1.7 clangers.
Among other "rising stars", he was 3rd in total disposals and 3rd in effective disposals. He ranked 2nd for score involvements per game.

In comparison with the eventual Rising star winner, Andrew McGrath, Tom had more disposals, more marks, more goals, more tackles, more I50s, more goal assists, more contested possessions, more uncontested possessions. His effective disposals was 15.2 v McGrath's 16.0 with McGrath going at 80.8% whereas Tom was a respectable 73%. Tom's clearance rate was double McGrath's, score involvements higher, metres gained nearly double, tackles inside 50 also higher.

Have I won you over yet?
This kid is 21, about to start his 3rd pre season and had 7 games with over 22 disposals in his 2nd year. Statistically, he was better than the Rising Star winner.

 

[wicksy]

My only concern is he runs around like a ugly duckling - let's hope he turns into our next Swan.

They were both taken at #58. Why not?

 

[magpies42]

A 6th place finish and bombing out in the qualifying final hardly constitutes playing in a dominant team. His personal form isn't dependent on his teams fortunes, if that was the case he would have been AA last year instead of being dropped for poor form.

Given our respective post to like ratios I'd wager I've contributed significantly more value to these forums than you. If you can't work out why Stringer is a better talent than Fasolo that's your problem, not mine. Maybe a re-watch of Stringers best footy as I suggested will tell you all you need to know.

Finishing 6th and winning a grand final in a year when another win or two would have seen them top 4 means they were a good team. The years previous they were building quite nicely, towelled us up at Etihad if I remember correctly. Our forward line has not even functioned at times, and our delivery to forwards has been amongst the worst in the comp. We both bombed this year and they were on par, I can't split them but you've implied that Stringer Is far greater than Fas...I don't think that's the case. They have similar attributes, play the same position essentially...although Fas has shown he can play mid and back and is stronger over head...both mentally cooked it would appear. At least we know what Fas' issue is, if there is any truth to the rumours surrounding stringer, he's worthless. We have been abysmal the last four years, Fas has battled hard and been a bit of a shinning light at times...dominant forwards, and particularly smalls, generally play in functioning forward lines and dominant sides. We just bomb the ball in every one flies for the mark and nothing...

I didnt realise post to like ratios were a thing, I must keep an eye on that from now on.

Perhaps it's more a function of familiarity and that most of my posts came at a time when likes weren't a thing (circa 2005).

 

[Quicky]

If you are going to be outside, you need either pace, or good disposal skills, preferably both. Phillips has neither. To his credit, he runs tirelessly and finds a lot of the footy. But what he does with it! His handpassing is not bad, and I've seen him link up play quite well. BUt his kicking...nothing short of diabolical IMO! Far too many clangers, far too many rushed aimless kicks when under pressure, and I can't recall a Collingwood player who gets smothered so much. To be fair, he has only played 24 games, but I'm very pessimistic about him. Poise and composure is a pretty hard thing to learn..if we we were some highly skilled if slow team, his tireless running might be handy. But whilst 2 of our best mids have disposal issues, we simply can't afford to have too many role players with similar faults

I get that argument but a few points.

When I say pace I probably should have said acceleration. Phillips acceleration away from the contest is poor. But he seems fine at full tilt. When he's outside and running so hard it doesn't seem to limit him much as his running buys him space. It seems more of an issue in traffic.

On his kicking I don't think it's as bad as made out. I think people are being a bit myopic about the clangers they've seen and putting it out of perspective. His kicking can improve but it isn't terrible by any means. And I think it can improve because he's 2 years and 24 games into his career and kicking was a feature of his as a junior. So theres scope there.

 

[Schraderbrau]

I'm not too concerned about Phillips's kicking and decision-making. It's probably got more to do with increased intensity and perceived pressure from opponents at AFL level which takes younger players quite a while to adapt to. Until this season it would have been fair to say that De Goey was a below average field kick but above average shot for goal. His poor field kicking had more to do with inexperience and adapting to the pace of the game than it did any technical deficiency. The field kicking has gradually improved as he's gotten more experienced until now where it is above average.

I was most concerned about Phillips's lack of footpace but he seems to find enough space to get the ball unpressured that I'm not too worried anymore. Although it help for an outside midfielder to have elite pace or elite kicking it is not prerequisite. Gaff, Sidebottom and Scully are all quality outside mids who don't have either. What they do have is elite stamina, something that Phillips also has.

 

[Horaceg]

Let's judge Phillips on what he is, a young man at the start of his career, we know he has elite endurance and can run all day, a quality needed in modern football, a rising star nominee and a player that has shown some level of consistency playing at the highest level.

The kid has not reached his peak and will certainly get better as he develops. I'm not sure where his level is but undoubtedly will produce more with physical maturity and experience. He has some stuff to learn but at pick 58 a very handy find.

Give the kid some time and a little patience, could be a 200+ gamer for us.

 

[10571z]

Let's judge Phillips on what he is, a young man at the start of his career, we know he has elite endurance and can run all day, a quality needed in modern football, a rising star nominee and a player that has shown some level of consistency playing at the highest level.

The kid has not reached his peak and will certainly get better as he develops. I'm not sure where his level is but undoubtedly will produce more with physical maturity and experience. He has some stuff to learn but at pick 58 a very handy find.

Give the kid some time and a little patience, could be a 200+ gamer for us.

Agreed. Phillips is the least of our worries with our list. Developing fine for his age, talent, experience.

 

[Scodog10]

I like Phillips personally because he does the one thing that you can't teach which is finding the ball. Beyond that though there are question marks because of the role he plays.

IMO, to be a top level outside player you need two of an engine, composure and speed. Phillips has the engine and is lacking in the other two areas currently. A player with similar issues is Rohan who has the speed although he lacks the engine and composure to be a consistent top level performer. Seedy has the speed and lacks the others as well. Steele has the composure and engine. Scully has all three.

He isn't going to get any quicker so moving forward I would work on his composure when he receives frontal pressure (fortunately he isn't Smith/ Oxley poor under pressure). If that continues to remain an issue an increased focus on contested ball will also see him improve, but it does mean a bit of a role shift. Overall I think he'll wind up about the same level as Brandon Ellis which is great value for a guy selected in the fourth round.

I can see why he's polarising too because those outside types usually are. Relying heavily on others feeding you the ball in order to be effective makes it difficult to be universally rated. Hence why the very best can do it inside and outside. Its not rocket science and it's odd to see posters getting hot under the collar over it.

FWIW if I were told we were losing one of Phillips or Sidebottom and I was given the choice of which one we keep I'd be letting Steele go. It's about value to me and the market overrates Steele and underrates Phillips, IMO.

 

[Roverjg]

Stats suggest you are wrong.

74% phillips v 70% adams efficiency
41 phillips v 96 adams clangers

You left out one pertinent stat to go with that: Contested possessions
Adams 257
Phillips 136

 

[Chrispiesssss]

I don't think any posters actively want to trade Phillips out, but if he happens to find better coin elsewhere, we can't really stop him from leaving.
Generally speaking a lot of fringe players probably expecting more money from the he CBA might not get it from their own club.

 

[Thefly38]

C'mon Mike... Most supporters would be stoked that a young player has won a rising star nom and will feature highly in the club bnf in their 2nd year.
It's not like the guy was a first round pick that was built to play seniors from the get go (ala Daniel Rich).
He came to the club a skinny kid taken at #58 (same pick as someone else we know ), tore Steele's 2km record in half, worked his way into the seniors and has not put a foot wrong since.

Yeah he turns it over every now and then but so does Jack Crisp, Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Steele Sidebottom etc etc.
He runs the other way harder than anyone in our team and is always providing an option.

This year, he averaged 21.1 disposals over 18 games with 1.7 clangers.
Among other "rising stars", he was 3rd in total disposals and 3rd in effective disposals. He ranked 2nd for score involvements per game.

In comparison with the eventual Rising star winner, Andrew McGrath, Tom had more disposals, more marks, more goals, more tackles, more I50s, more goal assists, more contested possessions, more uncontested possessions. His effective disposals was 15.2 v McGrath's 16.0 with McGrath going at 80.8% whereas Tom was a respectable 73%. Tom's clearance rate was double McGrath's, score involvements higher, metres gained nearly double, tackles inside 50 also higher.

Have I won you over yet?
This kid is 21, about to start his 3rd pre season and had 7 games with over 22 disposals in his 2nd year. Statistically, he was better than the Rising Star winner.

Wow a positive post about one of our up and comers.. calm down there

 

[soreplums]

He have been on whatever the default contract is for your first two years I'd assume? Unless I don't understand how it works, I'm fairly sure this is his first negotiable contract within the system.

I probably wasn't clear. His contract now should be somewhere between $200-$270 max- inclusive of hitting bonuses

 

[Soups]

What you choose to believe doesn't concern me all that much. I guess we can revisit this in October.

Read them all before. He was a certainty to go to Carlton last year and then signed. Very doubtful he's going to sign with us.

 

[Quicky]

Then what do we spend it on when Lynch Re-Signs with Suns?

Ben Brown.