List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency Part 9

[_RT_]

 

[TigerPaul71]

From what Tiger71 has been saying, Baker won't leave unless we get fairly compensated. A player that is seen to be a captain and leader of the leaving club bumps him up to at minimum 1 First rounder in the 10 - 17 range.

I am not too sure why the Bolton thing is for compassionate grounds? He signed a long term deal with us. There are three options;
1. He honours his contract with Richmond even after we tried to make a deal happen
2. A proper deal is done that nets Richmond what we are looking for and he moves
3. He breaks his contract and the lawyers and AFL decide on what has to be done.

We have a contract that both parties agreed to. Richmond are happy to keep up their end of the deal, us holding him to the contract is not us looking like dicks, it is us holding our ground. If we can't get a proper deal done then tough shit, quit and let the AFL decide what needs to be done. The price for contracted players goes up significantly as well, a 2 First round player would end up as a 2 - 3 Firsts (bridging the gap between a first rounder with other picks). I think we should get all their first round picks and we pay a portion of Bolton's salary for his contract. We need to keep the cap in shape whilst rebuilding so we don't end up like St kilda (Dunstan) having to overpay mid-foot soldiers Jack Riewoldt money just to hit minimum payments.
But beyond that your picks in the scenario are


No point trading the later ends for picks next year. The picks next year at that range will be useless with the new rules coming in. Need to strike whilst the iron is hot this year and there is a sellers market

At present, the Lions would have to go into deficit if a high bid for Ashcroft comes in. At the moment with the discount they can only bid around pick 8ish. So;

Richmond: Pick 17
Brisbane: Picks 39, 41, 54, 57, 63, 68

This would give them enough picks to match a bid at pick 4 without too much of a draft deficit for the next year.



Getting better in the draft order. Carlton could be worried about both their boys getting through so we could do
Richmond: 15
Carlton: 22, 36

This would give them 2000 points (after the trade and including total picks) which should more than cover off any bidding for the twins.

This means Richmond can take to the draft



This is how the wheeling and dealing should be done. Seven picks in the top 25. Seven, Sept, Siete. That is how you start a rebuild.

This would be the outs of
Retirements: Grimes, Dusty, Naismith, Pickett
Outgoing: Bolton, Baker, Graham

We can delist players as well and look to upgrade a few promising rookies. Lefau and others can get the nod on the real list with our back end chaff picks in the 90s

would be so happy with this!!
And we Keep Daniel

 

[tiger_tough]

If CCJ was fit and at Richmond, he would have played every game this year

A far superior footballer to Kosi, Ryan, and the 25 yr old that has done 5 ACL's

Xerri has kept him out at North

Plenty of spuds would get a game for us this year. Plenty have in fact.

 

[Rich01]

That's we're the problem is no first round last 2 years and our first pick in the forties. Club sold the bank on Taranto and Hopper that was the horrible decision.

Yes it was.
However one must realise that Blair was forced to trade for Hopper by Hardwick. He demanded we get him at all costs for one last tilt. This is a well known fact within the club. He ended up with so much power that it was unhealthy. From lost management to match committee decisions. The latter meant we didn’t blood youngsters in our side like we should have.

Hardwick was a savour for the club. But in the last couple of years he was poison.

Also note that it’s Hardwick firmly driving Rioli and Martin’s recruitment to the GC. Expect them to pay whatever it takes if Daniel decides he wants to get up there. He’s been given total control of that club.

 

[_RT_]

Sorry RT but Pick 8 and a F1(lets say 18)is highway robbery for a contracted player that Freo know could be the difference in winning the flag next year.Lets see how far they bend.

You quoted the version before the edit, where I changed the Bolton deal to Fremantles first 2 picks this year, which at the end of the day is a reasonable outcome for a player who reports say wants out.

 

[banana_bus]

What I can see happening as opposed to what many want to see happen.

Baker & Graham to WCE.

Baker nets us a 2024 R2 & 2025 R2 pick. Graham compo is band 3 (currently pick 22)

Bolton requests a trade to Fremantle and we get their 2 best 2024 R1 picks which is currently pick 8 from Pies, and their own 2024 R1 pick which is currently 13. Those picks combined value Bolton at pick 2 in a single trade, which is fair value.

I know everyone wants 3 x R1 picks for Bolton but I don't see it happening. The club will not want to look like pricks by playing hard ball when the request is made on compassionate grounds. If the roles were reversed none of us would be happy seeing us give up 3 R1 picks for 1 player.

Suns will come for Daniel but he will stay close to family with Maurice already at the cub and Maria Rioli likely to join in the AFLW draft.

As far as retirements go I believe we will see announcements shortly for Grimes Martin & Naismith.

I believe we will give 1 year deals to Prestia McIntosh & Pickett to keep some maturity and leadership around. I also believe that we will re-sign Trezise Smith Maurice Lefau Campbell Green Dow Blight & Gray.

That would see the list changes for this off season as:

Retired: Grimes Martin Naismith
Trade/Free Agency: Baker Bolton Graham
Delisted: Colina Coulthard Cumberland

Draft Picks:
1, 8, 13, 21, 22, 23, 36, 39, 41, 54, 57, 63 & 68

Those in Italics available to trade up into R1 and/or R2 picks or 2025 picks.

2025 picks based on the above would be:

R1: Richmond
R2: Richmond and WCE
R3: Richmond
R4: Richmond

If the above was to pan out along those lines I believe we'll have done well, not ideal, but good enough to kick start the rebuild.

Oh and I know richoatthedisco doesn't like this already

Edited due to tigs2010 providing information regarding Fremantle 2025 picks.

If we give away Bolton for 8-10 and 15-18 (prob in the 20s with academy/FS) we may as well just fold. We'd be going back to the 90s and early 2000s when we were a tin-rattling rabble.

We hold the cards here. We gave up 12 and 19 for Taranto ffs and you're saying we should get back similar for Bolton who has 5 years to run on his contract? Come on man.

 

[_RT_]

From what Tiger71 has been saying, Baker won't leave unless we get fairly compensated. A player that is seen to be a captain and leader of the leaving club bumps him up to at minimum 1 First rounder in the 10 - 17 range.

I agree, but the Eagles don't have a pick in that range without splitting pick 3 and I don't see them doing that as they'd be hoping to get Baker and a top 3 rated kid. Getting their 2 R2 picks over the next 2 drafts gives us more flexibility to trade up this year and also next year when point values will be different.

I am not too sure why the Bolton thing is for compassionate grounds? He signed a long term deal with us. There are three options;
1. He honours his contract with Richmond even after we tried to make a deal happen
2. A proper deal is done that nets Richmond what we are looking for and he moves
3. He breaks his contract and the lawyers and AFL decide on what has to be done.

We have a contract that both parties agreed to. Richmond are happy to keep up their end of the deal, us holding him to the contract is not us looking like dicks, it is us holding our ground. If we can't get a proper deal done then tough shit, quit and let the AFL decide what needs to be done. The price for contracted players goes up significantly as well, a 2 First round player would end up as a 2 - 3 Firsts (bridging the gap between a first rounder with other picks). I think we should get all their first round picks and we pay a portion of Bolton's salary for his contract. We need to keep the cap in shape whilst rebuilding so we don't end up like St kilda (Dunstan) having to overpay mid-foot soldiers Jack Riewoldt money just to hit minimum payments.

Bolton signed that deal before he had his first kid and now they're expecting another. I believe the request for heading back home to have family support around them. 2 picks inside the top 15 is a deal both clubs would walk away happy with.

But beyond that your picks in the scenario are
1, 8, 13, 21, 22, 23, 36, 39, 41, 54, 57, 63 & 68

No point trading the later ends for picks next year. The picks next year at that range will be useless with the new rules coming in. Need to strike whilst the iron is hot this year and there is a sellers market.

Clubs need points this year and we'll have plenty. I'm not saying we trade them for the same picks next year, I'm suggesting trading them for better picks next year.

At present, the Lions would have to go into deficit if a high bid for Ashcroft comes in. At the moment with the discount they can only bid around pick 8ish. So;

Richmond: Pick 17
Brisbane: Picks 39, 41, 54, 57, 63, 68

This would give them enough picks to match a bid at pick 4 without too much of a draft deficit for the next year.

Using your above suggestion we trade those picks for the Lions 2025 R1 pick or your below suggestion and get Carltons 2025 R1 pick

Getting better in the draft order. Carlton could be worried about both their boys getting through so we could do
Richmond: 15
Carlton: 23, 36

This would give them 2000 points (after the trade and including total picks) which should more than cover off any bidding for the twins.

If we did those trades we could take 5 picks to the draft this year
1, 8, 13, 21, 22

And in 2025 have

R1: Richmond Carlton Brisbane
R2: Richmond WCE

That gives us 10 picks inside the first 2 rounds across the 2 drafts, spreading the acquisition of talent evenly and not throwing all our eggs in the one basket.

 

[_RT_]

If we give away Bolton for 8-10 and 15-18 (prob in the 20s with academy/FS) we may as well just fold. We'd be going back to the 90s and early 2000s when we were a tin-rattling rabble.

We hold the cards here. We gave up 12 and 19 for Taranto ffs and you're saying we should get back similar for Bolton who has 5 years to run on his contract? Come on man.

Like I've said I'm suggesting what is a possibility of happening at the end of the day. We can all sit here and say we want pick 3 for Baker and 3 R1 picks for Bolton and 2 top 10s for Rioli, but that isn't going to happen IMHO and if it does then erect a statue of Hartley next to Jack Dyer because it'll be the heist of the century.

 

[banana_bus]

Like I've said I'm suggesting what is a possibility of happening at the end of the day. We can all sit here and say we want pick 3 for Baker and 3 R1 picks for Bolton and 2 top 10s for Rioli, but that isn't going to happen IMHO and if it does then erect a statue of Hartley next to Jack Dyer because it'll be the heist of the century.

No one is expecting 3 1sts for Bolton, but a middle of the road 1st and basically a pick in the 20s isn't going to cut it.

 

[Coach_Required]

No one is expecting 3 1sts for Bolton, but a middle of the road 1st and basically a pick in the 20s isn't going to cut it.

We should be asking for Freo's best 1st rounder and 3rd best 1st rounder. We would also love a 1st for Baker but if he chooses the eagles that won't happen. They aren't splitting pick 3 for Baker and if they trade Barrass for a top 10 pick, we aren't getting that either, its wishful thinking.

The way i see it:

Pick 8 (Coll) & 16 (Port) for Bolton from Freo
Pick 23 & F2 for Baker from West Coast
Pick 40 (3rd round compo) for Graham to West Coast.

Go to the Draft with

1,8,16,21,23,36,39,40,41,54,57

Picks 36,39,40,41,54,57 can be partly used to try and trade with someone like Brisbane for their 1st round pick in exchange for them to get Ashcroft F/S. or even future trade some of those later picks for a future 1st.

We could end up with something like 1,8,16,18,21,23. F1 & F2

 

[Cleansweep17]

Like I've said I'm suggesting what is a possibility of happening at the end of the day. We can all sit here and say we want pick 3 for Baker and 3 R1 picks for Bolton and 2 top 10s for Rioli, but that isn't going to happen IMHO and if it does then erect a statue of Hartley next to Jack Dyer because it'll be the heist of the century.

What do you think we’ll get for them? Of the tradeable players I’d say:

Baker: end of 1st rounder

Bolton: A 1st rounder and an end of 1st/start of 2nd rounder

Rioli: Is probably the same as Baker

Graham: end of 3rd rounder

 

[richoatthedisco]

Coleman Jones is 200cm so can't really call him short and in a lot of the draft reports he was always in that top 30 listing. He also made top 10 I believe in June/July of his draft year that got him the invite to the combine.

Dunno where you've been brother, but 200cm is short for a ruckman these days, especially one that can't jump.

Just because the draft reports also got it wrong doesn't mean Clarke didn't.

Higgins is not a failed pick at all.

For us he is. Because he and the bloke we should have picked are playing for other teams. Opportunity cost. Wrong pick. Wrong type. Wrong reasoning. Wrong player. Fail.

If you want to after-time Clarke's picks and say he missed on Taylor etc but this does nothing to reduce his standing amongst the cohort of chief recruiters unless you do an exercise like the one I did for Clarke and compare it to whoever you think has done better. If nobody has clearly done better then his results are up with the best in the AFL.

The recruiters who picked Taylor et al did better. Caruso at GWS, Taylor at Melbourne, Wells at Geelong, the blokes at Freo, Sydney, Brisbane and the Dogs.

Recruiting Bobby Hill in 2018 we would not have even contemplated. As it stood we already had to let a load of small forwards go.

It was very much contemplated. Francis Jackson was pushing for it. Clarke had a hard-on for RCD. Massive fail.

This campaigner inventing nicknames and now wants to play guess who FFS.

Bro, bromeo, broseph, I get tired to.

Higgins. Higlet. Piglet. FFS.

I agree, but the Eagles don't have a pick in that range without splitting pick 3 and I don't see them doing that as they'd be hoping to get Baker and a top 3 rated kid. Getting their 2 R2 picks over the next 2 drafts gives us more flexibility to trade up this year and also next year when point values will be different.


Bolton signed that deal before he had his first kid and now they're expecting another. I believe the request for heading back home to have family support around them. 2 picks inside the top 15 is a deal both clubs would walk away happy with.


Clubs need points this year and we'll have plenty. I'm not saying we trade them for the same picks next year, I'm suggesting trading them for better picks next year.


Using your above suggestion we trade those picks for the Lions 2025 R1 pick or your below suggestion and get Carltons 2025 R1 pick



If we did those trades we could take 5 picks to the draft this year
1, 8, 13, 21, 22

And in 2025 have

R1: Richmond Carlton Brisbane
R2: Richmond WCE

That gives us 10 picks inside the first 2 rounds across the 2 drafts, spreading the acquisition of talent evenly and not throwing all our eggs in the one basket.

Why is Carlton giving us their 2025 pick?

 

[Noidnadroj]

You only achieve that by looking at one tiny segment of his recruiting that amounts to 2 failed draft picks at picks 20 & 21.

No sugar coating is needed. If you look at the recruiting and drafting overall under Clarke, it has been perfectly sound. The only trouble is he couldn't find a strong inside mid. But from the picks he was taking there were very few available. Even the fact he made two attempts at an inside mid with picks around 20 in 2018-19 tells you he understood what the club needed.

If you think other recruiters have done better in the period Clarke was our head of recruiting, then list all their picks and trades and we can compare them. Clarke definitely faced the unique issues only a dynasty club recruiter faces:

1. no early picks meaning any obvious quality mids and key forwards are gone, AND you miss out on some of your own VFL guns D'Ambrosio, Durham, Mannagh.

2. limited opportunity for players to play at AFL level, meaning you lose an absolute stack of half decent and decent players, Chol, Markov, Ellis, Butler, Higgins, CCJ, Stengle.

If he was made chief recruiter at say Carlton or Essendon or even Collingwood during the same period, all other things being equal he doesn't lose a load of talent like that listed above and has about 5 more good best 22 footballers on his list right now. And he also gets access to a number of top 5 & top 10 talents where it is a hell of a lot easier to pick guns.

So same guy, same recruiting acumen, totally different and better result. But from the picks and opportunities and difficulties Clarke faced, he has done a really good job.

Don’t post facts MR, it really annoys the catastrophisers ….who has the best reputation for drafting ..? I’d say the Cats.

Here are their top-25 picks since 2008, a period where they’ve been constantly contending :

2023: Had the chance to draft Caddy … traded the pick to the Bombers and selected tall defender O’Sullivan instead. Early days but concerning as Caddy looks exciting.

2022: #8 Jyhe Clark . Ginbey, Phillipou were taken #9 and #10. Very concerning.

2021: #24 Conway and # 25 Knevitt. Conway looks promising, Knevitt not so much.

2020: #20. Max Holmes. Great pick.

2019: #16. Cooper Stephens. Big bust. #19 SDK. Great pick.

2018: #15 Jordan Clark. Traded for early 20’s pick.

2017 : #22 Fogarty .. bust now at Carlton. #24. Kelly… great pick.

2016: #26 Parfitt… middling pick.

2015: no top-25 pick.

2014: #10 Cockatoo. Big bust.

2013: #16. Lang. Big bust.

2012: #16. Thurlow. Big bust.

2011: no top-25 pick.

2010: #15 Smedts. Big bust. #23 Guthrie.. big tick.

2009: #9. Menzel . Bust due to injury.

2008: #15 M Brown. Big bust.

So is Stephen Wells any good? Not looking at this as shows only 5-6 genuinely successful top-25 picks from 18 selections.

It’s almost like there are more ‘failed’ picks taken beyond 15 than successful ones … funny that.



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[tigs2010]

Don’t post facts MR, it really annoys the catastrophisers ….who has the best reputation for drafting ..? I’d say the Cats.

Here are their top-25 picks since 2008, a period where they’ve been constantly contending :

2023: Had the chance to draft Caddy … traded the pick to the Bombers and selected tall defender O’Sullivan instead. Early days but concerning as Caddy looks exciting.

2022: #8 Jyhe Clark . Ginbey, Phillipou were taken #9 and #10. Very concerning.

2021: #24 Conway and # 25 Knevitt. Conway looks promising, Knevitt not so much.

2020: #20. Max Holmes. Great pick.

2019: #16. Cooper Stephens. Big bust. #19 SDK. Great pick.

2018: #15 Jordan Clark. Traded for early 20’s pick.

2017 : #22 Fogarty .. bust now at Carlton. #24. Kelly… great pick.

2016: #26 Parfitt… middling pick.

2015: no top-25 pick.

2014: #10 Cockatoo. Big bust.

2013: #16. Lang. Big bust.

2012: #16. Thurlow. Big bust.

2011: no top-25 pick.

2010: #15 Smedts. Big bust. #23 Guthrie.. big tick.

2009: #9. Menzel . Bust due to injury.

2008: #15 M Brown. Big bust.

So is Stephen Wells any good? Not looking at this as shows only 5-6 genuinely successful top-25 picks from 18 selections.

It’s almost like there are more ‘failed’ picks taken beyond 15 than successful ones … funny that.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Goes to show how good FJ was. His record is every bit as good and we sacked him just before a flag

Wells nails a lot of late picks though as did FJ.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Don’t post facts MR, it really annoys the catastrophisers …

I'm far from a catastrophiser. I just think Clarke made some poor calls and I'm glad he's gone.

 

[tigerfan1961]

I agree, but the Eagles don't have a pick in that range without splitting pick 3 and I don't see them doing that as they'd be hoping to get Baker and a top 3 rated kid. Getting their 2 R2 picks over the next 2 drafts gives us more flexibility to trade up this year and also next year when point values will be different.


Bolton signed that deal before he had his first kid and now they're expecting another. I believe the request for heading back home to have family support around them. 2 picks inside the top 15 is a deal both clubs would walk away happy with.


Clubs need points this year and we'll have plenty. I'm not saying we trade them for the same picks next year, I'm suggesting trading them for better picks next year.


Using your above suggestion we trade those picks for the Lions 2025 R1 pick or your below suggestion and get Carltons 2025 R1 pick



If we did those trades we could take 5 picks to the draft this year
1, 8, 13, 21, 22

And in 2025 have

R1: Richmond Carlton Brisbane
R2: Richmond WCE

That gives us 10 picks inside the first 2 rounds across the 2 drafts, spreading the acquisition of talent evenly and not throwing all our eggs in the one basket.

But this upcoming draft is super strong according to all the experts. Why not just load up this year and take advantage of a golden opportunity that’s presented itself. Stuff trading into the unknown next year, grab the talent this year if it’s there

 

[Morro]

Yes it was.
However one must realise that Blair was forced to trade for Hopper by Hardwick. He demanded we get him at all costs for one last tilt. This is a well known fact within the club. He ended up with so much power that it was unhealthy. From lost management to match committee decisions. The latter meant we didn’t blood youngsters in our side like we should have.

Hardwick was a savour for the club. But in the last couple of years he was poison.

Also note that it’s Hardwick firmly driving Rioli and Martin’s recruitment to the GC. Expect them to pay whatever it takes if Daniel decides he wants to get up there. He’s been given total control of that club.

This is 100% true. He is desperate for elite speed off HB and Rioli and he are like family.

 

[Profop]

But this upcoming draft is super strong according to all the experts. Why not just load up this year and take advantage of a golden opportunity that’s presented itself. Stuff trading into the unknown next year, grab the talent this year if it’s there

Because you need the list space for all these draftees and we don’t really have the spots at the moment

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

You quoted the version before the edit, where I changed the Bolton deal to Fremantles first 2 picks this year, which at the end of the day is a reasonable outcome for a player who reports say wants out.

Sorry RT but that edited version is way overs.

 

[blaisee]

What I can tell you for sure is the following

If Freo want Shai, they are going to have to bend over, and there will be NO LUBE FOR YOU

 

[tigerfan1961]

Because you need the list space for all these draftees and we don’t really have the spots at the moment

Depend how many selections we are going to make. I’m sure Blair and the team will have that all figured out by now. And if there’s too many selections, then sure, trade them into next years draft

 

[_RT_]

Why is Carlton giving us their 2025 pick?

In the discussion the other poster suggested we trade for their R1 pick this year. I used that trade as a way to suggest we could trade excess picks this year for picks in 2025 given our leverage by holding so many picks this year that we may not need to use

 

[_RT_]

No one is expecting 3 1sts for Bolton, but a middle of the road 1st and basically a pick in the 20s isn't going to cut it.

Seen plenty of suggestions that Bolton is worth 3 R1 picks. The suggestion I've made is a pick in the top-10 and another top 15 as it stands.

 

[richoatthedisco]

In the discussion the other poster suggested we trade for their R1 pick this year. I used that trade as a way to suggest we could trade excess picks this year for picks in 2025 given our leverage by holding so many picks this year that we may not need to use

They won't trade their first this year. Camporeale bids will come after it. Not sure why they'd be motivated to trade next year's first? For what? Our pick 21 or whatever?

 

[_RT_]

What do you think we’ll get for them? Of the tradeable players I’d say:

Baker: end of 1st rounder

Bolton: A 1st rounder and an end of 1st/start of 2nd rounder

Rioli: Is probably the same as Baker

Graham: end of 3rd rounder

As mentioned in the post this morning:

Baker 2024 & 2025 R2 picks from WCE. If he chooses Fremantle then we should be asking for their 3rd R1 pick to go along with 2 R1 picks for Bolton.

Rioli if he goes I'd hope for Suns own R1 pick and pick 20 minimum, but push for their 2 R1 picks.

Graham reports suggest he is getting a deal worth a band 3 pick, which equals pick 22 currently.

 

[_RT_]

They won't trade their first this year. Camporeale bids will come after it. Not sure why they'd be motivated to trade next year's first? For what? Our pick 21 or whatever?

It was along the lines of the other poster suggesting 23 & 36 for their R1 this year. Doesn't have to be Carlton, but any club looking for points this year. Let's see if we can try and get extra R1 picks in 2025 rather than loading up in this draft with 6-7 top 30 picks.