Transgender - Part 2

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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
Do you have an answer or not?
I’m genuinely asking. Who’s still discriminating as we head into 2025?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trolling. Here, I've found an article for you to read and understand.

 
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trolling. Here, I've found an article for you to read and understand.


It’s unbelievable that people put so much time and energy into things that don’t impact them in the slightest. I saw it first hand with the drag queens doing story time at libraries - so many people complaining who don’t even attend.
 

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Alternatively, if we're only talking about 0.9% of the population why is it up to the other 99.1% to change?
Good thinking! And using similar logic, why should we refrain from being racist to non-white people, since most Australians are white? While we're at it, why should left-handed people be accepted by the majority? Their perversion should be kept far away from me and my children!

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, so says Mr Spock.
Oh gosh I just really need to harass and oppress someone who's different. It's a real human need!

For example, 'if you have a penis use the men's toilets, if you don't don't' is not a wildly unreasonable position.
You'll be cool with this bloke walking into the women's toilets then? Since he doesn't have a penis, and all.

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Society managed to cope with that distinction fine for a long time.
Society also shot Aboriginal people for sport, sent children up chimneys, considered rape to be legal within marriage and used electro-shock therapy to "cure" people of the sin of homosexuality. A lot of people managed to cope through that too, but they generally weren't the ones on the receiving end of such discrimination.

In that scenario if trans women (of which there is no distinct definition, can be anything from a post op MTF person or a man in a dress)
There is a distinct definition.

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Alternatively, the Yale School of Medicine's definition is on this page:



want to use women's bathrooms, play women's sports etc. you are effectively asking half the population to be OK with that.
Yes.

Doesn't really impact men that much as not many women trans or otherwise want to go anywhere near a male bathroom or play men's sport.
Trans men do. Why are you leaving them out of this conversation?

How many women 'accept' trans women as women? All of them? 50%? 20%?
Maybe you could google it if you're curious. I've met enough cis women to know that many of them do accept trans women as women and have no issues using the same toilet or change room as them.

Anyone who thinks that people can decide what gender/sex they are and everyone else has to go along with it or "discrimination" needs to get out more.
That's pretty condescending. What if someone thinks that and has got out plenty? What if as part of that getting out, they talked to many trans people, to understand why they're willing to look and act the way they do despite having to brave the disapproval and even belligerence of many people? What if they also talked to people who disapproved of trans people, asked them why they hold the attitude they do, and didn't receive a compelling answer?
 
It’s unbelievable that people put so much time and energy into things that don’t impact them in the slightest. I saw it first hand with the drag queens doing story time at libraries - so many people complaining who don’t even attend.
Religious and political leaders worked out a very long time ago that people can be persuaded to fear or dislike others who are not like them and concepts they are unfamiliar with. Once that's happened, they can be easily persuaded to give their faith, votes and/or money to whichever leaders claim they can protect them from this supposed threat. Trans people, and other gender non-conforming people like drag queens, are simply the latest bogeyman to be used to scare the public, after Asians, Muslims and gay people stopped being feared by large swathes of the nation.

Yes, it is unbelievable that people get annoyed about things that don't affect them and aren't hurting anybody. But this didn't just spontaneously happen. A lot of time and effort has been put in to make these people annoyed, by people who stand to gain from those people being annoyed. They're very persuasive and well-resourced.
 
Alternatively, if we're only talking about 0.9% of the population why is it up to the other 99.1% to change? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, so says Mr Spock.

For example, 'if you have a penis use the men's toilets, if you don't don't' is not a wildly unreasonable position. Society managed to cope with that distinction fine for a long time. In that scenario if trans women (of which there is no distinct definition, can be anything from a post op MTF person or a man in a dress) want to use women's bathrooms, play women's sports etc. you are effectively asking half the population to be OK with that. Doesn't really impact men that much as not many women trans or otherwise want to go anywhere near a male bathroom or play men's sport.

How many women 'accept' trans women as women? All of them? 50%? 20%? In a smaller setting it is different because no minority is even distributed throughout society. A workplace of 50 people might have a trans person or two or none, but it won't have 0.45 of one. And everyone may be accepting and accommodating of that person that they know, but doesn't translate to broader society. Just because your sports team all agree that a trans player should play with them doesn't mean all other teams or the league will.

Anyone who thinks that people can decide what gender/sex they are and everyone else has to go along with it or "discrimination" needs to get out more.
You could ask why so many laws are being passed that directly effect trans people's lives when they're such a small percentage of the population.
 
The small population size is one of the reasons they are going after trans rights.

It makes them an easier target because less people directly know someone who is trans.

It's the tip of the spear the reactionaries love a bit of divide and conquer to roll back rights

The same as they haven't stopped in the US with Roe v Wade they won't stop with legislating against trans people
I agree. The silver lining is, there may be a serious risk of future blowback for any institution that goes after trans people, if they intend to be around for more than a decade. They will always be the subject of disgust for those who are currently young and sympathetic to trans people, and people have long memories.

For example, all the various churches currently have falling numbers of adherents, and I think they'll suffer much harder a decade from now when many homophobes have passed away and the young still remember who was leading the charge against gay people. And politically, maybe the Liberals will find a way to win more votes in future but I think a cliff is coming for them. Actions aren't free from consequences forever.
 
I agree. The silver lining is, there may be a serious risk of future blowback for any institution that goes after trans people, if they intend to be around for more than a decade. They will always be the subject of disgust for those who are currently young and sympathetic to trans people, and people have long memories.

For example, all the various churches currently have falling numbers of adherents, and I think they'll suffer much harder a decade from now when many homophobes have passed away and the young still remember who was leading the charge against gay people. And politically, maybe the Liberals will find a way to win more votes in future but I think a cliff is coming for them. Actions aren't free from consequences forever.
It's easy to think homophobia is going away but it isn't and it's not just older people

There's a concerted effort from those with these views to keep them going the same as there is with racism and misogyny

Thinking we just have to wait out the bigots dying isn't it.

Churches might have lower congregations but the gathering is happening elsewhere and there's plenty of money involved as well.

There's been so much push back in the last 20-30 years on all the progress made and it's not getting any easier
 
Good thinking! And using similar logic, why should we refrain from being racist to non-white people, since most Australians are white? While we're at it, why should left-handed people be accepted by the majority? Their perversion should be kept far away from me and my children!

Yep, totally the same thing. Why not just argue that trans people are subjected to Jim Crow laws and anyone who disagrees is literally Hitler? That's how silly the above is.

Segregating by sex isn't discrimination, and trans people don't live in leper colonies nor are they second class citizens. The only "discrimination" is people arguing that you don't get to just choose your sex. That's how how biology works. Absolutely you can change your sex, and absolutely you can choose to identify as whatever you like - but that doesn't elevate your chosen identity.

The difference between me and a "person who was registered male at birth but lives and identifies as a woman" walking into the hospital for women and babies is that if they tell me to go away it's common sense and if they tell the other person the same thing it's discrimination. It's a silly state of affairs.

You could ask why so many laws are being passed that directly effect trans people's lives when they're such a small percentage of the population.

Laws like this?


The bill, passed in Queensland Parliament tonight, means transgender people will no longer be required to undergo gender affirming surgery to update their gender on their birth certificate.

Instead, they will provide a supporting statement from someone who has known them for 12 months or more. The bill also gives people greater say over their gender descriptors, including non-binary recognition.  


10 years ago no one was talking about any of this stuff. Lawmakers are playing catch-up.
 
Alternatively, if we're only talking about 0.9% of the population why is it up to the other 99.1% to change? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, so says Mr Spock.

For example, 'if you have a penis use the men's toilets, if you don't don't' is not a wildly unreasonable position. Society managed to cope with that distinction fine for a long time. In that scenario if trans women (of which there is no distinct definition, can be anything from a post op MTF person or a man in a dress) want to use women's bathrooms, play women's sports etc. you are effectively asking half the population to be OK with that. Doesn't really impact men that much as not many women trans or otherwise want to go anywhere near a male bathroom or play men's sport.

How many women 'accept' trans women as women? All of them? 50%? 20%? In a smaller setting it is different because no minority is even distributed throughout society. A workplace of 50 people might have a trans person or two or none, but it won't have 0.45 of one. And everyone may be accepting and accommodating of that person that they know, but doesn't translate to broader society. Just because your sports team all agree that a trans player should play with them doesn't mean all other teams or the league will.

Anyone who thinks that people can decide what gender/sex they are and everyone else has to go along with it or "discrimination" needs to get out more.
Just to add to the wonderful response by Johnny Bananas, how do you think a trans woman (with a penis) would be treated if she went into the men’s toilets at a pub or club and started fixing her hair and make-up? Blokes might not realise this is as an important a function of a ladies room at a venue as relieving oneself (often to the irritation of someone like myself who has little interest in fixing hair and makeup and just wants to get to a sink so I can wash my hands - but I accept others are different).

Do you think she would be respected? Or ridiculed?

And I don’t understand the question about why the majority should have to change? In what way do we have to change? How are my needs of using a public ladies’ restroom impacted by a trans woman using the same facilities?

The issue of trans women in sport is more complex and best left to those with expertise to set rules based on the sport, the individual (eg time/stage of transition) and the level of participation (eg community vs elite).
 
Just to add to the wonderful response by Johnny Bananas, how do you think a trans woman (with a penis) would be treated if she went into the men’s toilets at a pub or club and started fixing her hair and make-up? Blokes might not realise this is as an important a function of a ladies room at a venue as relieving oneself (often to the irritation of someone like myself who has little interest in fixing hair and makeup and just wants to get to a sink so I can wash my hands - but I accept others are different).

Do you think she would be respected? Or ridiculed?

And I don’t understand the question about why the majority should have to change? In what way do we have to change? How are my needs of using a public ladies’ restroom impacted by a trans woman using the same facilities?

The issue of trans women in sport is more complex and best left to those with expertise to set rules based on the sport, the individual (eg time/stage of transition) and the level of participation (eg community vs elite).
Most if not all pubs are required to have a third bathroom available which suits a majority of transgender's needs. Non-binary and transgender have mental health issues at alarmingly disproportionate rates ranging from anxiety to outright suicidal tendencies. 93% of people LGBTQ+ people surveyed by Life of Mind that didn't fit into the LGB categories reported to having a mental disorder. 73.6% reported to having self-harmed in their lifetimes. The current sway towards recognising transgenderism is enabling behaviour and allowing sick but treatable people to wallow further in their afflictions. Recognising it as a mental illness is the first step towards treading the affected.
 
Most if not all pubs are required to have a third bathroom available which suits a majority of transgender's needs. Non-binary and transgender have mental health issues at alarmingly disproportionate rates ranging from anxiety to outright suicidal tendencies. 93% of people LGBTQ+ people surveyed by Life of Mind that didn't fit into the LGB categories reported to having a mental disorder. 73.6% reported to having self-harmed in their lifetimes. The current sway towards recognising transgenderism is enabling behaviour and allowing sick but treatable people to wallow further in their afflictions. Recognising it as a mental illness is the first step towards treading the affected.
Are you suggesting that gender dysphoria is a mental illness in itself? The way homosexuality used to be categorised as a mental disorder?

I can believe that people with gender dysphoria suffer from anxiety and depression at higher rates than those without such dysphoria. But is that not likely attributable to society’s acceptance of them, as well as self-acceptance? How does denying their dysphoria alleviate their anxiety or depression? How does insisting they use public toilets according to biological sex alleviate any mental challenges they face?
 

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Yep, totally the same thing. Why not just argue that trans people are subjected to Jim Crow laws and anyone who disagrees is literally Hitler? That's how silly the above is.
I didn't argue they were the same thing. I was using these things called hyperbole and satire to demonstrate that catering to the majority in a way that makes minorities suffer is not a good thing. Understand?

Segregating by sex isn't discrimination,
How can people tell whether someone went to the right side of the segregation or not? Is it based on outwards looks? Or what genitalia they have?

and trans people don't live in leper colonies nor are they second class citizens.
I posted an article in response to adogsfan5 about the violence trans people face. Did you read it? If not, I suggest doing so and then re-evaluating how they're treated by large parts of society.

The only "discrimination" is people arguing that you don't get to just choose your sex. That's how how biology works.
No, people are conflating gender and sex. Gender isn't biology, it's a social construct of expected behaviours, attitudes and appearances that was assigned to people at their birth. Why shouldn't that be able to be changed if people don't feel comfortable with the one they were assigned?

Absolutely you can change your sex, and absolutely you can choose to identify as whatever you like - but that doesn't elevate your chosen identity.
What do you mean by "elevate"?

The difference between me and a "person who was registered male at birth but lives and identifies as a woman" walking into the hospital for women and babies is that if they tell me to go away it's common sense and if they tell the other person the same thing it's discrimination. It's a silly state of affairs.
Why is it silly? If they're there to treat women and they refuse to treat a woman, how is it not discrimination? I find it hard to believe that every doctor and nurse in the building specialises in obstetrics only, and even then they are all trained in basic medical knowledge.

Can you please answer the questions I asked above?

1. Are you cool with the bloke in the picture I posted walking into a women's toilet?

2. Why are you leaving trans men out of this conversation? They exist too.
 
Most if not all pubs are required to have a third bathroom available which suits a majority of transgender's needs. Non-binary and transgender have mental health issues at alarmingly disproportionate rates ranging from anxiety to outright suicidal tendencies. 93% of people LGBTQ+ people surveyed by Life of Mind that didn't fit into the LGB categories reported to having a mental disorder. 73.6% reported to having self-harmed in their lifetimes. The current sway towards recognising transgenderism is enabling behaviour and allowing sick but treatable people to wallow further in their afflictions. Recognising it as a mental illness is the first step towards treading the affected.
https://www.gilmorehealth.com/augus...a-in-transsexual-people-has-biological-basis/
 
No, people are conflating gender and sex. Gender isn't biology, it's a social construct of expected behaviours, attitudes and appearances that was assigned to people at their birth. Why shouldn't that be able to be changed if people don't feel comfortable with the one they were assigned?
This is pseudointellectual horseshit that is given way too much air time. Men's toilets have urinals. Women's clothing shops sell bras. Male bathrooms don't have tampons in them. After primary school age boys and girls don't play sport against each other. This has nothing to do with gender and people need to stop pretending it does. If you want to wear a dress wear a dress. If you aren't happy that the dresses on offer are designed for women take it up with dress makers.

No one 'assigns behaviours' at birth. Who talks like this? Doctors look at babies and tick a box based on whether it's an outie or an innie. And on rare occasions it is not that black and white.

What do you mean by "elevate"?
I mean you do you, be whatever version of yourself you want to be - but that has nothing to do with me or anyone else. Everyone has their own identity and that's great. If you want to call yourself non-binary and choose your own pronouns then do it, but remember it is more important to you than it is to others. Identity is personal. That is how a free society is supposed to work. I am not stopping you from making up words or taking hormones or having reassignment surgeries or anything like that. But if one day you decide that you are non-binary and are going to be outraged every time someone doesn't instinctively just not use language conventions that everyone has been fine with for hundreds of years I don't have to validate it. It isn't mean spirited or discriminatory. There are 8 billion people and therefore 8 billion identities. Most people can't even remember where they left their keys.

Why is it silly? If they're there to treat women and they refuse to treat a woman, how is it not discrimination? I find it hard to believe that every doctor and nurse in the building specialises in obstetrics only, and even then they are all trained in basic medical knowledge.

Why not go to a psychiatrist instead of a GP then? They have "basic medical knowledge". It's silly because everyone knows why maternity hospitals exist and coming up with terms like 'birth parent' doesn't change that fact. Monty Python's Life of Brian needs to be compulsory viewing for some people.

Can you please answer the questions I asked above?

1. Are you cool with the bloke in the picture I posted walking into a women's toilet?

2. Why are you leaving trans men out of this conversation? They exist too.

1. Does not bother me at all. I don't go into women's bathrooms. Are you cool with me walking into a women's toilet? If people want to do away with sex/gender segregation altogether than by all means mount an argument for it. I've been to enough festivals where the line for the ladies is 10x what is for the gents, and I can tell you no woman in the gents would be there if the alternative wasn't lining up for half an hour. There is also no checkpoint on any bathroom. Next time I go to the pub I can walk straight into the women's bathroom and if no one notices or asks me to get out then nothing happens. It's a philosophical argument. Do you want a women's bathroom to be for women, or anyone who feels like using it?

2. What of them? Who said they don't exist? I know a trans man and he's not trying to do anything that makes others uncomfortable. Yeah he's different to most people but a lot of people are different. I would have an issue if after a couple of years of transitioning he decided he still wanted to play women's sports though.
 
2. What of them? Who said they don't exist? I know a trans man and he's not trying to do anything that makes others uncomfortable. Yeah he's different to most people but a lot of people are different. I would have an issue if after a couple of years of transitioning he decided he still wanted to play women's sports though.
So trans women aren't allowed to use the womens bathroom or play womens sport and trans men also are not allowed to se the womens bathroom and play womens sport?
 
It's a philosophical argument. Do you want a women's bathroom to be for women, or anyone who feels like using it?

Same principle. If you can't decide what a woman/man is how can you determine what you think a woman/man can and can't do? Or more accurately should or should not be permitted to do.

I would suggest that someone that was born male and has been through puberty probably shouldn't be playing women's sports. Same goes for someone that was born female and has had reassignment surgery, is taking testosterone etc. There is a reason that sports governing bodies, doctors etc. don't just blindly say "yep that's fine gender is a social construct".
 
Same principle. If you can't decide what a woman/man is how can you determine what you think a woman/man can and can't do? Or more accurately should or should not be permitted to do.
so because you can't work it out your answer is ban them all
I would suggest that someone that was born male and has been through puberty probably shouldn't be playing women's sports. Same goes for someone that was born female and has had reassignment surgery, is taking testosterone etc. There is a reason that sports governing bodies, doctors etc. don't just blindly say "yep that's fine gender is a social construct".
again because you can't work it out ban them all

i thought you were all live and let live Scotty seems that wasn't actually the case
 
so because you can't work it out your answer is ban them all

again because you can't work it out ban them all

i thought you were all live and let live Scotty seems that wasn't actually the case

:rolleyes:

No one is banned from anything. Show me the public conveniences that trans people are banned from. Either you have sex segregation or you don't. I really don't care if you want to do way with women's bathrooms, women's sports etc. altogether. Knock yourself out, but I think you'll find most people don't want that. That live and let live enough for ya? I am from the 90s, Ally McBeal had this covered a long time ago.

I am not one who thinks that someone is a man one day and a woman the next (or vice versa) because they feel like it. This is really not controversial. If you can't answer very simple, straightforward questions why are you trying to be clever? Do you think a women's bathroom should be for anyone who feels like using it? Do you think women's sport should be for anyone who feels like playing it? Pick a lane m8.
 
I am not one who thinks that someone is a man one day and a woman the next (or vice versa) because they feel like it. This is really not controversial. If you can't answer very simple, straightforward questions why are you trying to be clever? Do you think a women's bathroom should be for anyone who feels like using it? Do you think women's sport should be for anyone who feels like playing it? Pick a lane m8.

This is really not a representation of the experiences trans people have.

They don't flip flop where one day they're a boy, one day they're a girl, and another day they're a cat.

It's a pretty long-term thing, in a society that's not very good at accomodating people outside the norm (where the norm probably isn't actually fully representative of most people anyway).

Kids today are far better at accommodating those who are 'different' than people were a generation ago, let alone a couple of generations ago, so over time it'll be less of an issue - which is why you're seeing higher rates of LGTBTIQ+ identification in younger people - as people aren't forced to fit in to a box to exist. But there's little doubt as a society we can do and be better at allowing people to be whoever they need to be, without judgement. There's a lot of people with <something> that doesn't fit neatly in to the 'majority' so it's not just about transgender people making up ~ 1% of the population, but about a society that works for everyone no matter what box you don't quite fit in to; disability, sexuality, gender, mental health.
 
Are you suggesting that gender dysphoria is a mental illness in itself? The way homosexuality used to be categorised as a mental disorder?

I can believe that people with gender dysphoria suffer from anxiety and depression at higher rates than those without such dysphoria. But is that not likely attributable to society’s acceptance of them, as well as self-acceptance? How does denying their dysphoria alleviate their anxiety or depression?

Trans people have higher rates of major depressive episode, anxiety disorder, autism spectrum, multiple personalities than the general population. To help those individuals you need to be looking at the whole mental health picture. It could be that their gender dysphoria is not the underlying cause of their issues but part of a more general dissociative disorder. If so, changing gender is not going to alleviate their problems.

But it has become prevalent by educators, psychologists and social workers to accept people identifying as transgender at face value and even to take pride in it. When the system is rigged like this there's a lack of informed choice. They might be encouraged to identify as trans as a way of dealing with mental health issues that are not driven by gender identity.
 

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Transgender - Part 2

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