Roast Ty-ragic Tyrone

[CoggaRules]

How 'bout some Tucky love while you're feeling generous Wally?

This 'show something' business can be pretty subjective.

On 2nd viewing, a lot of Derickx's contests on the weekend were against Casboult and Keeffe...a pick #44 in the rookie draft and a pick #92 in the ND - each three years younger than Derickx. Both seriously out-rucked him at times, he out-marked and out-bodied both around the ground, as you'd hope he would.

Based on this he 'showed something.' People aren't even waiting until he plays a full senior game against genuine AFL opponents before they promote him.

Vickery on the other hand, has had games where he took 18 hitouts off Ryder and Maric head to head (he lost to both but competed very well for his age).

But hasn't 'shown something?' To my mind he's had infinitely harder opponents, been thrown to the wolves against them and done as well as could be expected.

He's shown he's a great kick for a ruckman, he's shown his handball is really good in traffic and he makes good decisions, he's shown he's a long way from hopeless for a ruckman as a marking forward target, he's agile enough to be laying plenty of tackles for a gangly kid, he's had a couple of mid-teen possession games with very few errors, there really is plenty to like about him.

He's barely turned 20, has played only 23 games and is a long way from full grown...I really don't know what more people want to see from him.

try this one on for size erayzoread, how about something more in game 23 than what was shown in game 1. I mean he isnt fully grown, yeah, but he surely has grown between game 1 and game 23.

 

[Dr Tigris]

TV has lots of genuine excuses for not being a star yet, but he also hasn't shown enough to label him as more than just another player. He has shown at times genuine speed, skill and smarts - and he has shown a lot of nothing as well.

Like i said before his first two years were played against the monsters of the AFL - ruckmen. Unless you have the natural physique of a gorrila and/or the ability to jump over the big guys you spend the day running into brick walls. Even the club in their player review said he lost confidence last year. I reckon the penny dropped (for the football department) then that he just isn't physically ready to be an AFL ruck. I felt that since he came in. Right guy (I hope) wrong way to develop him.

We'll see if he comes along. I agree with Rayzor's view on what TV has done. But so what? He still isn't AFL class. I personally don't think we should be expecting him to be there yet. He should have had maybe 10-15 games in the AFL, and the rest at Coburg against guys he can physically compete with.

We know from history that most ruckmen only come good around 25+. I am more upset about the footy department than TV. Do the people trashing TV reckon that the club have developed him well? Or is it all his fault that he isn't extraordinary?

 

[TIAGRA]

I want to retract my negative statement about Vickery.
He's a kid and is having a crack and he's probably a good boy too.

I'm still frustrated by him and want to smack him around the head but will once again TRY to refrain from baggin anyone under 22.

Watch out 22 and over,u ****ing hacks!

 

[Cathal Brugha]

The elephant in the room that no-one has identified yet is that he is 'timid' (to be polite). He refuses to put his body on the line. Too young, not quick, undersized, lacks football smarts - they are all excuses.

 

[Indian boy]

Hopefully it is just a matter of giving him some time but he definitely has not shown anything to indicate that he should be playing in the seniors. Most kids are made to earn their position in the side but Ty seems to be gifted a position regardless of his form.

Send him back to Coburg until he earns his place...

its this last line that concerns me.. how many times do we say this about a player.. and the player rarely makes it..

 

[its game on]

I posted earlier about his 2008 season (U18's) and that one great game for Vic Metro in that year.

He did overcome the ACL and credit should go to the young man for that. My theory is that he has had an AFL silver spoon upbring with his scholarship, his dad's connection at Richmond and the Sandy Dragon's manager having a big role in his football upbringing. Kevin Sheehan also pumped up his tyres beyond his rating. Tom Lynch's (Sandy teammate) dad was his footy coach at Haileybury.The whole scenario meant that it has almost been like a guaranteed preselection for a very safe electorate, where future PM's and ministers are expected and are given on breeding and background rather than the rank and file battles that some footballers endure.

Tom Lynch BTW who was St Kilda's first round pick in 2008 has been given one game by Ross Lyon and sent back to the VFL to work his arse off.

He is talented, I've seen him show that, and he has been thrown in at the deepend somewhat, but he needs to do an apprenticeship at Coburg and convince the punters he's worthy of a game in the senior team.

 

[Vitriol]

Can anyone tell me how good Jolly was after his 2nd year?

Statswise at the same age he was a lot worse than Vickery.

Funnily enough the likes of Jamar, Hille, Cox and Gardiner were all worse or about the same as Vickery.

Sandilands, Brogan and Hudson hadn't even played a game by 20.

But Ty hasn't "shown anything" so he's obviously just a dud

 

[Dr Tigris]

To some extent this is what I have been on about. Is he timid? Or has he leant that he can't compete body on body with guys 10-20 kgs more than him?
If the first he is in TROUBLE. If the second his development has been screwed up. Then he should play in the Burgers or in the forward line where he doesn't get so monstered.

On your last points, he is quick and has football smarts (in some ways, not a genius though). But when I have watched him I see a guy trying to play man on man with guys who he simply cannot move. If that just means he isn't ready for AFL yet then great. If it means he doesn't have the smarts to play to his strengths then he is in trouble. Time will tell, but he is 2-3 years off being AFL ready given the usual tiem it takes for a big guy to develop. I hope they get rid of the magic carpet ride he has been on so far (as others have said he's gotten). He should not be gifted a spot and if he has to play 20 games in the 2's, so be it. Maybe then he'll come back next year at 100kgs with fire in his belly. I reckon he has real talent, but whether that translates to the AFL is something we haven't seen yet.

The elephant in the room that no-one has identified yet is that he is 'timid' (to be polite). He refuses to put his body on the line. Too young, not quick, undersized, lacks football smarts - they are all excuses.

 

[RECORDS!]

Statswise at the same age he was a lot worse than Vickery.

Funnily enough the likes of Jamar, Hille, Cox and Gardiner were all worse or about the same as Vickery.

Sandilands, Brogan and Hudson hadn't even played a game by 20.

But Ty hasn't "shown anything" so he's obviously just a dud

Dont know about Gardner, but you make excellent points. The only issue here is that maybe we are wasting such a high pick on a slow developer, we shoud be letting someone else draft them and poach them when they are on the cusp of doing any good when the club that drafted them is frustrated as sh!t with them

 

[_RT_]

A pack mark would be nice for a start, Rayz.
Failing that, a contest that brings smaller crumbers into play would be reasonable.
Some body-on-body action in a ruck contest would be decent also.
He's OK when he's on his own as he shows some reasonable skill, but that's not what he was drafted for. Kel Moore was drafted for that and has become OK but he was rookie listed.
I would have preferred Ziebell at No 8.
The type of player he is and what he has shown, has been no more than a 4th round pick.
He is the last great **** up of the Wallace era.

This post is going to go 2 ways for you Tugga, either it will prove to be prophetic or its going to come back and bite you on the arse, when someone bumps it should Vickery actually fulfil his potential.

As a fellow Tigers man, I'm guessing you'll happily wear one for the team.

 

[Dustin Credible]

at no 8 pick they are not suppose to take time to show something. Alot here dont get it. Here we have a no 8 pick showing less than an rookie would in their initial 3 years....i repeat 3 ****ing years..Now we can wait for something to happen...just like we did with Paddy Steinfort, Jay Burton and Simon Eastaugh...we waited and waited and waited for them to "develop" like shit.

As the claws and a few others suggest, he plays 2s and until we see consistent dominant performances in that lower grade, and until then we dont see him in the 1s. Then you and all the rest can keep waiting forever...he might yet break Simon Eastughs record of 200 ressie games.

Culture change alert. Dont try and justify the pick to save face, just cut your losses and be don with it and move on...the end.
I am not cutting him yet, but we are at the point where IMO the exit door looms in the distance. Its up to him and the dev crew to distance TY from that door. And lets get ****ing real about what he has shown. He might have shown us 1/2 of something in 1 piece of play the other night. They talk about being starved in our FL. I am talking about the first half of the first game when the ball was in heading our way for the most part. We wouldnet even go near him because he aint up to it.

Can anyone tell me how good Jolly was after his 2nd year?

On the main board there is a thread about "kids you made the wrong call on". It's surprising how many of them are ruckmen (crap first few years much better later on). Personally I'll be giving him until he's 23 (season 2013/14) as by then the should have a sufficently developed body and enough experience. Certainly wouldn't be cutting him tomorrow.

Just one point, there seems a well published trend towards teams having a genuine ruckman and a forward/second ruck (cf. the Leigh Brown role). In my view we have 3 1st rucks (Graham, Browne, Derickx) and 2 second rucks (Vickery and Post). If with the interchange rules this becomes the standard way to set up a side, then the development of his forward skills will be as if not more important than his ruckwork.

 

[TheProwler]

Okay I think we can all identify that Vicks is no superstar at 20. What he is at 30 is entirely up to him and the coaching group. He could be a decent ruck in a premiership team or working the drive through at maccas.

Given the rapid evolution of the modern game their is no place for a lumbering colt like vicks who seems to a bit confused on the park as to what he should be doing. Watching him he seems to be on the back foot a fair bit and doesn't present or attack the pill with any great endeavour, this can be easily remedied.

Yes he is only 20 but I don't really care if he stays on the list for another five years as long as he isn't wasting the spot another ruck could fill. Keep him on a very base wage and play him at coburg until he warrants otherwise. In a few years time if another kid comes along that deserves vicks spot then adios vicks.

 

[santa claws]

Statswise at the same age he was a lot worse than Vickery.

Funnily enough the likes of Jamar, Hille, Cox and Gardiner were all worse or about the same as Vickery.

Sandilands, Brogan and Hudson hadn't even played a game by 20.

But Ty hasn't "shown anything" so he's obviously just a dud

just goes to show you should not read to much into stats.

for the record jolly has never ever been big on stats.while his stats have improved i think in his best season he averaged around 12 possesions a game.
what jolly showed early on was a propensity for the contest he did what you expect from the type of ruckman he is.
he gave a stern contest he blocked he threw his weight around he shepherded he did a lot of the little things that few ruckmen get credit for. most of all hed have a red hot dip. one thing you could never accuse jolly of was being timid.

as for playing games are you seriously saying because hes played 23 games and other ruckmen had to wait that hes a better performed player.

im in the camp of its silly to be writing him off and we need to be patient but im not one who thinks he should be playing seniors. hes done absolutely nothing even at coburg. gifting games to blokes who are not ready is a nonsense.
yes people should have concerns about him and in an ideal world he would not have been playing seniors apart from perhaps a taste of it for experience.
he has been very ordinary at the level. its now time for him work his arse of at coburg and show he can at least cope with that level.

 

[Rayzorwire]

A pack mark would be nice for a start, Rayz.
Failing that, a contest that brings smaller crumbers into play would be reasonable.

He may well have improved in these areas tug - we might have found out if the ball went up there more often.

Some body-on-body action in a ruck contest would be decent also.

He weighed 89kg last season, he would have quite literally got killed playing any style other than the one he did. I'd suggest that one of the reasons there's a big disparity between how he's rated here and how the coaching staff rate him, is because they've specifically instructed him to ruck and contest in a way that limits the possibility he'll get snapped in half. They're focusing on developing his tap work, disposal, where he moves, how he interacts with our mids, his tackling etc. - not whether or not he's physically dominating against blokes 10-30kg heavier.

He's OK when he's on his own as he shows some reasonable skill, but that's not what he was drafted for.

At his current body size, all we would have expected to see so far is reasonable skill - which I might add, is not common in blokes 200cm+. You can't make them grow to authentic ruck size quicker than their body type allows, but you can make sure they have an intimate knowledge of the game plan and have worked a lot on the skills and execution side of their game. That's what we're doing to fast track him, it's all we can do.

I would have preferred Ziebell at No 8.
The type of player he is and what he has shown, has been no more than a 4th round pick.
He is the last great **** up of the Wallace era.

I wasn't happy with the pick myself, said so at the time. I really thought we should have gone hard at a mature player like Mumford and I'd love to have one of Sidebottom or Ziebell, but the pick's done, I haven't seen anything to suggest it was a waste yet, we won't really be able to judge it fairly until 2013-14.

I will say that the fact the recruiting team took a ruckman who was never going to add a thing to the 2009 mix with our first rounder shows that even at that late stage, while we were adding a couple of 'ready-made' players, we were still using our early picks on talent for the distant future. A Ziebell would have helped way more for 2009 than Vickery, they were obviously prioritising getting the best for the future over the best for the now.

A bad joke... possibly. But reckon there's more on here agreeing with me than not. Dont count my mate Rayzorwire as someone on your side, seriously, ole Rayzor is still telling us how good Hally was. He lost a lot of credibility a long-time ago and has been trying to recover ever since.

I've been thinking a nice Transylvanian buggy ride holiday for me and the family at the completion of our Jackson bet would be an appropriate gentlemen's gesture Wally...should we get some more on the go in the meantime?

How many more games will Vickery play mate?

I know you're itching to make one on Tuck...

Who else is tripping out your impeccable dud radar?

 

[Truetiger]

Yeah it's pretty laughable
If he did this in another 2 years then I'd understand, but only at Tigerland would you get this type of backlash

Could very well turn out to be another dud that we have wasted time on. Like others have said he has shown very little in his time with the club. Others in front of him no problems. Another of Madtigers top players

 

[TJTIGER]

He shows some good speed and doesn't seem over awed by whats going on arund him. I did notice that he has trouble in the ruck against bigger bodies. Thats the same with any player in any position, most would have trouble against a bigger body. I think we tend to notice it alot more with rucks because it's just 2 going at it. I'm happy to wait and see because we all know the big guys take longer. At least another 2-3 yrs or until he beefs up a bit more.

 

[TFLUA-Tiger]

Ty's one of those kids who was always going to take time because we wanted to modify his body - when you do that it takes a while to get your pace/mobility back, get used to the game at a new size.

He hasn't made it yet - but big kids take time.

You'd want him to develop a bit of mongrel - and those really strong hands that were present in U/18's - you want them back now.

 

[TigerTime88]

Needs more time as stated, however at this point I am not confident in him ever living up to pick 8 because he hasn't really shown anything even in one passage of play that suggest otherwise. Should still develop into our first ruckman though, because our ruck division is atrocious.

This year Derickx and Graham or Derickx and Post should do the ruck work imo.

 

[Greggy]

I watched him closely during last season and the recent NAB cup and have realised why he doesn't yet have an impact, he judges the ball badly in flight, plus he chooses to chest mark the majority of the time, allowing defenders to spoil. If you watch one bit of play in NAB1 against Collingwood (I think it's about the 20 min mark) Ty and his opponent are running back with the flight of the ball along the outside wing, Ty's got the sit, all he has to do is turn and attack the mark and catch it at it's peak, but he chooses to keep running with the flight to try and take a chest mark and Tarrant jumps 3rd man up and spoils from behind. It's just a small incident and he then recovered the spoiled ball at ground level, which is a positive aspect of his game, but it really highlighted to me that ATM he not only lacks aggression towards his opponents but the ball aswell.

I really don't want to bash him, he just needs some agro, maybe this will come as he matures, but he might be kind of soft by nature.

Just calling it as I see it now. He might, and will probably show his worth at some point.

 

[TJTIGER]

I agree with those saying he lacks aggression at the ball, but its a bit hard to throw your weight around when you don't really have any yet.

 

[Greggy]

I agree with those saying he lacks aggression at the ball, but its a bit hard to throw your weight around when you don't really have any yet.

Richo was doing it when he was a rake.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Personally, as I've said before, I reckon he should have spent more time in the VFL where his lack of size wouldn't matter so much. And then get the development guys to teach him to be aggressive and play the foward/ruck role. They played him against the monsters - ruck is physically the most demanding role in footy! he isn't ready now and he is heavier than he was.

What he has is good skills and speed, as well as height. I think he has a good footy brain, but not genius. Very few 2 metre tall players have those traits. So if the club can get him to the right physique and playing to his size he could be very good. I'm frustrated because i see him - I don't want to see him at AFL level until he is ready. We should have had someone similar to Dx earlier. Then leave TV and Browne in the 2s to develop. He has been played since drafted against guys that can ignore his physical presence. That would crush almost anyones spirit when they have to play body on body. Ruck is body on body above all, and he hasn't got the body. I can see why they took him at 8, but I think it was a speculative pick for top 10. Still, if he can make it we are a much stronger side. But right now, leave him to learn the roles and get stronger.

 

[TJTIGER]

Richo was doing it when he was a rake.

Point taken Greggy but how many Richos are there playing or past? I'm hoping with T.V that an increase in desire comes with his knowledge that he can throw his weight around and not get injured. If not I don't think Dimma will tolerate that from any players.

 

[SleepingGiant]

Always have rated him. You fools will be proven wrong. He will take time but has shown some passages of play that are promising. He is doing better than most ruckman that were at the same age.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

Always have rated him. You fools will be proven wrong. He will take time but has shown some passages of play that are promising. He is doing better than most ruckman that were at the same age.

Fair call... Mrs Vickery