Roast Ty-ragic Tyrone

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Its funny enough when the uneducated write off Kpp 3 years in.. Writing off a ruckman is even funnier... how silly
 
Tas said:
Luenberg and Kruezer go okay, NickNat looks promising, we took McIntosh with our first pick.
All those have limited impact comparing to where they were picked in the draft... All have had injuries at some point.... and all will take time to develop, with no guarantees of success.
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But, a lot of good ruckman can be taken a lot later in the draft as it can be a 3-5 year development process and starring as a junior doesn't always mean you will star at AFL level and sucking as a junior doesn't always mean you will suck at AFL once you get that development.
EXACTLY.... been saying it for years on here and it seems people are starting to realise that you dont pay heavily for a ruckman via the draft.
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We got Goldstein with a 3rd rounder from memory, guys like Cox and Sandilands were off the radar. I think it is good to take some roughies that you can try to turn into stars but you also have to look at some talented guys, a lot of ruckman these days in the juniors also spend a fair bit of time as a key forward.
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At the moment Graham, Browne (both rookies) and The X (pick 63) look to be all ahead of Vickory and cost virtually nothing....
 
dean putt?? 2 years in and got the boot...

a good eye can see whether someone will cut it or not, as idgaf said, he has not shown a glimpse thus far, not even a passage of play thats made everyone go...whoa...im prepared for him to sit on our list 2 more seasons, maybe even a third but that would be it for me
 

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I'm in TVs camp, but think he is taking quite a time to move up a level. The thing that has bothered me since he got drafted was that he was played in the ruck against guys just too big for him. I watched him outmanouver them (I thought), then push them and make no impression. He simply isn't the athletic, jump over the opposition type ruck. So as a young player he can't play AFL ruck, like Nic Nat or what's his name at Carlton.

But I have seen him use his afterburners a few times. In the draft camp he did 2.9 something 20 meters. He has genuine speed. He also shows some good skills the few times he has the ball. So I look at him and think when he gets to 100 kg I'll start to pay attention. I reckon he should have played Coburg, and learnt to crunch guys that aren't AFL size and standard. I think this might be one case of fast tracking setting a guy back. He has been too skinny to deal with opponents, so has become timid. He has the footy brain (IMHO) and athletiscism and skill to be a good AFL player. I hope he plays Coburg and learns to be what he can be. If he ends up as nearly but not quite its a real pity, cause he has talent for his size.
 
nut said:
At the moment Graham, Browne (both rookies) and The X (pick 63) look to be all ahead of Vickory and cost virtually nothing....
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The X is 23, 3 years older than Vickery. In the ruck, maturity means a lot, it is not like most other positions where if you aren't having a great game there are many other positions for you to play and in many cases your opponent is well developed physically and has a lot of experience.

These guys are really the last of the one-on-one players.

When you talk about 3 years, early on that is a massive difference even if the other guy has only been playing amateur level footy. There would probably be quite a few VFL ruckman that could make a passable ruckman at AFL but have no real upside in terms of potential.

Goldstein for us was a bit of a freak, but he had a massive frame even as a kid so it hasn't been a shock to his system to develop physically for AFL level and he has had no major injury setbacks, even then it was at 21 years of age that he shows some good signs and at 22 when he really commanded and earned his spot in the side (last year).
 
I'm going to put Vickery down in the basket of many other high draft picks. If he doesn't make it it will be because of poor development not poor recruiting.

Go and read through the old phantoms, on bigfooty, from the media, match reports from his days at Sandrigham, his reports from Vic Metro, and the comments from commentators of the TAC cup. Whether it was us or not, Vickery was always going to be a highish first round pick. At one stage he was touted top 5 material. I don't begrudge the recruiters for selecting him.

Like it or not he'l still be here in 2012, the coaching staff will not delist a 21 year old ruckman who's still only at 95 kilos. Let's just wait it out.
 
I'll take a Josh Fraser-type player for Vickery right now. In his 3rd year, Fraser kicked 37 goals and averaged 10 disposals and 4 marks. 3 goals in the 2002 GF. He was one of Collingwood's best in the 2003 GF as well.

I'm not sure why Fraser dropped off, but he was a gun in years 2-4. I don't think he fitted in with the Collingwood game plan. I think he will do better than expected at GC.
 
CoggaRules said:
naa dude, the deadset imbecile is you...see, those who you suggest are turning or have turned on him are only suggesting he show them something that might turn them...as for the level of your stupidity it shines through with the comparison to a Josh Fraser.
I mean here you are telling dudes they are imbeciles because they are turning on him or turned on him and just before you do that you offer this classic piece of shit..."too small to compete as a ruckman and too tall to make it as a forward. And I know he's 200cm + but he doesn't play tall...at least not yet".

So according to you he is to small to be a ruckman and to tall to be a forward..and he doesnt play tall, at least not yet...so in essence you are suggesting he is nowhere and there isnt a position for him on the ground...but of course you arent turning or havent turned on him yet yeah? You stupid fool...when you want to offer some input to your argument, make it so it backs up your argument instead of backing up someone else's. ;)
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The point I was trying to make is that right at this point in time, he's not going to compete on a weekly basis with mature ruckmen and he will be found out as permanent forward. I do believe that at this stage in his development (which is still early days), he is not a ruckman per se...at least not in the seniors. Playing him as a ruck in the seniors will cost us plenty of games this year. At the same time, as others have rightly pointed out, Vickery is not a permanent forward. He may be able to pinch hit as a forward but will not cut it there on a full time basis. Again, TV playing as a full time forward will cost us plenty of games this year.

Having said that, if Hardwick and co. make the call to get plenty of games into him this year regardless of how his form is, then I'm comfortable with that. It may cost us this year but can only benefit TV and the team in years to come. We'll all just have to put up with the constant dribble about him from certain posters!

And yes I do believe he will end up being more of Josh Fraser type ruckman. That's not good for us because we did take him at #8 but it's not TV's fault that we did that. And actually, the way todays game is played, having him as a 2nd ruck with pinch hitting ability as a forward is extremely valuable. Again, you wouldn't pay #8 pick for that role but to sound like a broken record, it wasn't TV's fault he was taken at 8.

Unlike others on here, I'm prepared however to give him a go and not take a crack after 1 preseason game. Way too early to be slamming him as useless.
 
Dr Tigris said:
I'm in TVs camp, but think he is taking quite a time to move up a level. The thing that has bothered me since he got drafted was that he was played in the ruck against guys just too big for him. I watched him outmanouver them (I thought), then push them and make no impression. He simply isn't the athletic, jump over the opposition type ruck. So as a young player he can't play AFL ruck, like Nic Nat or what's his name at Carlton.

But I have seen him use his afterburners a few times. In the draft camp he did 2.9 something 20 meters. He has genuine speed. He also shows some good skills the few times he has the ball. So I look at him and think when he gets to 100 kg I'll start to pay attention. I reckon he should have played Coburg, and learnt to crunch guys that aren't AFL size and standard. I think this might be one case of fast tracking setting a guy back. He has been too skinny to deal with opponents, so has become timid. He has the footy brain (IMHO) and athletiscism and skill to be a good AFL player. I hope he plays Coburg and learns to be what he can be. If he ends up as nearly but not quite its a real pity, cause he has talent for his size.
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...now thats a well reasoned fair call on where tyrone is at...:thumbsu:...

...unlike some of the hysterical chicken little comments that have been posted so far...:thumbsdown:...

....let derickx be fast tracked into a competitive ruckman that richmond so needs...he has the size and willingness....buying time for tyrone's development...i am willing and quiet happy to see him at tigerland for the next three years honing his ruck craft...minimum...
 
Except for the 1st quarter against Carlton, did the ball even go in our forward 50?

Ridiculous to call it after that. The kid definitely needs a rocket up his clacker,and i dare say with Derriirickcckkcxx (spelling?) he is getting one right now.

Ty will struggle to get game time up against Graham & Derriirickcckkcxx (spelling?), and that will certainly give him a wake up call. If Browne also surpasses him in the VFL, then the club should be seriously talking to him about his future and making him realize that nothing is certain when it comes to an AFL career.

I think ruckman are probably one of those things you are better off trading a first round pick for than selecting one. They take too long to develop , and seem a massive risk for a top 10 selection. If we traded that pick 8 for a ruckman, we would have gotten a pretty high quality one ready to go.
 

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I didnt bother to read any of yous guys rubbish. Ty is going to play forward all year and ruck to give our 1st ruck a rest. Ty is not expected to reach his peak until 2013 or 2014 so get off his back. Mark Lee wasnt always a gun he took time to. If you knew what you were talking about you would not have even started this post.
 
tugga said:
Takes a big man to admit he was wrong.:thumbsu:
Have never seen anything in him that remotely resembles an AFL player.
He and Rance are hopeless and I would rather see Grimes and Gourdis in...at least they have ticker (OK, so Rance has ticker, but not much else).
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:eek:

Jesus, this thread grew some legs. Half expected vitriol coming back at me, but glad to see that others find his as useless as a **** full of cold water.

Anyhow... yep, l'll pay for my Jackson remark, but l like to think l get more right than wrong. I dont think l've seen anyone admit to being incorrect on here. I fought my corner well... and although l'm still not sure about him, he's not our worst by a long way.

Vickery on the other hand... shits me to tears. Would he have been selected had he's father not been so close to the club and that he did that scholarship crap before drafting with us?? Nepotism at its best. :thumbsdown:

Reckon the club drafted him out of fear that if he came good, we'd look like ****wits because he was in our own backyard... never mind that he had no talent.

;)
 
Dustin Credible said:
Vickery will come along fine, he's just going to take time. He will have some good games up forward this year.
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at no 8 pick they are not suppose to take time to show something. Alot here dont get it. Here we have a no 8 pick showing less than an rookie would in their initial 3 years....i repeat 3 ****ing years..Now we can wait for something to happen...just like we did with Paddy Steinfort, Jay Burton and Simon Eastaugh...we waited and waited and waited for them to "develop" like shit.

As the claws and a few others suggest, he plays 2s and until we see consistent dominant performances in that lower grade, and until then we dont see him in the 1s. Then you and all the rest can keep waiting forever...he might yet break Simon Eastughs record of 200 ressie games.

Culture change alert. Dont try and justify the pick to save face, just cut your losses and be don with it and move on...the end.
I am not cutting him yet, but we are at the point where IMO the exit door looms in the distance. Its up to him and the dev crew to distance TY from that door. And lets get ****ing real about what he has shown. He might have shown us 1/2 of something in 1 piece of play the other night. They talk about being starved in our FL. I am talking about the first half of the first game when the ball was in heading our way for the most part. We wouldnet even go near him because he aint up to it. ;)
 
Watching him in the NAB 18's championships there wasnt much at all that excited me, he just seemed like an average tall and nowhere near a top 10 pick. Roughead was the standout for mine.
Still, he deserves time.
 
Wally Matera said:
Anyhow... yep, l'll pay for my Jackson remark, but l like to think l get more right than wrong. I dont think l've seen anyone admit to being incorrect on here. I fought my corner well... and although l'm still not sure about him, he's not our worst by a long way.
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How 'bout some Tucky love while you're feeling generous Wally? :p

This 'show something' business can be pretty subjective.

On 2nd viewing, a lot of Derickx's contests on the weekend were against Casboult and Keeffe...a pick #44 in the rookie draft and a pick #92 in the ND - each three years younger than Derickx. Both seriously out-rucked him at times, he out-marked and out-bodied both around the ground, as you'd hope he would.

Based on this he 'showed something.' People aren't even waiting until he plays a full senior game against genuine AFL opponents before they promote him.

Vickery on the other hand, has had games where he took 18 hitouts off Ryder and Maric head to head (he lost to both but competed very well for his age).

But hasn't 'shown something?' To my mind he's had infinitely harder opponents, been thrown to the wolves against them and done as well as could be expected.

He's shown he's a great kick for a ruckman, he's shown his handball is really good in traffic and he makes good decisions, he's shown he's a long way from hopeless for a ruckman as a marking forward target, he's agile enough to be laying plenty of tackles for a gangly kid, he's had a couple of mid-teen possession games with very few errors, there really is plenty to like about him.

He's barely turned 20, has played only 23 games and is a long way from full grown...I really don't know what more people want to see from him.
 
Rayzorwire said:
How 'bout some Tucky love while you're feeling generous Wally? :p

This 'show something' business can be pretty subjective.

On 2nd viewing, a lot of Derickx's contests on the weekend were against Casboult and Keeffe...a pick #44 in the rookie draft and a pick #92 in the ND - each three years younger than Derickx. Both seriously out-rucked him at times, he out-marked and out-bodied both around the ground, as you'd hope he would.

Based on this he 'showed something.' People aren't even waiting until he plays a full senior game against genuine AFL opponents before they promote him.

Vickery on the other hand, has had games where he took 18 hitouts off Ryder and Maric head to head (he lost to both but competed very well for his age).

But hasn't 'shown something?' To my mind he's had infinitely harder opponents, been thrown to the wolves against them and done as well as could be expected.

He's shown he's a great kick for a ruckman, he's shown his handball is really good in traffic and he makes good decisions, he's shown he's a long way from hopeless for a ruckman as a marking forward target, he's agile enough to be laying plenty of tackles for a gangly kid, he's had a couple of mid-teen possession games with very few errors, there really is plenty to like about him.

He's barely turned 20, has played only 23 games and is a long way from full grown...I really don't know what more people want to see from him.
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A pack mark would be nice for a start, Rayz.
Failing that, a contest that brings smaller crumbers into play would be reasonable.
Some body-on-body action in a ruck contest would be decent also.
He's OK when he's on his own as he shows some reasonable skill, but that's not what he was drafted for. Kel Moore was drafted for that and has become OK but he was rookie listed.
I would have preferred Ziebell at No 8.
The type of player he is and what he has shown, has been no more than a 4th round pick.
He is the last great **** up of the Wallace era.
 
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