VFL VFL team, Sandringham alignment & player development

[Defacto]

As I implied earlier, if we go with the last listed best 22 we end up with players like
Roberton, Simpkin, Gilbert, Curren, Longer, Minchington, Saunders, Shenton, Saad, Lee, Sippos, Schneider not playing AFL.
( personally I'd have them there but the argument remains valid as others drop back ).

That's 12 players and many of them, Simpkin, Curren , Minchington, Shenton, have contributed enormously to Sandringham in the past.
So do we drop one of those 12 to reserves?
If not we are left with the likes of Wright, McKenzie, Goddard, Saunders, Murdoch, McCartin, Holmes, Markworth, and Lonie battling for a spot in the VFL seniors.

I could see StKilda making players like Gilbert and Shenton unavailable just to get games into some of the others.
My question remains, can Sandringham override their own rule in the interest in making the Zebra's a stronger team?

spot on mate!!! that is my worry as well.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

spot on mate!!! that is my worry as well.

And the inevitable result of talented young players ( or even older GOP's ) not even getting a game in the VFL seniors is..................

 

[Defacto]

And the inevitable result of talented young players ( or even older GOP's ) not even getting a game in the VFL seniors is..................

well they end up shitty and disillusioned. end up off the pace. its the same problem sandi were having. players were unhappy because they were playing in the dev side when they thought they should be playing seniors in place of AFL listed players they thought werent much chop. but thats what happens when you have an alignment. but i havent seen AFL players over here get dropped solely based on a cap so they can nurture the state league talent

dont get me wrong i have no problems with them spending time in the dev leagues if the coaches think it will help them, but if they want them playing senior football and they cant because of this rule, thats a problem!!!

 

[sonnywalters]

heres my best 22, VFL side and dev squad given the 13 cap (i think its actually 12, but nevermind)

AFL
B Geary Delaney Fisher
HB Dempster Bruce Webster
C Montagna Armitage Ray
HF Savage Riewoldt Membrey
F Billings Lee Hickey
R Longer Dunstan Steven
I/C Gilbert Newnes Templeton
SUB Saunders

VFL (not sure of the VFL players but took a stab at it)
B Wright Roberton Simpkin
HB Shakallis* Le Grice* Shenton
C Banfield* Ross Cook*
HF Hyphen* Brown* Schneider
F Saad White Pierce
R Holmes Cockie* Jones*
I/C Ong* Weller Acres Murdoch *Noone

VFL Development
B BP Goddard Baker-Thomas
HB HBF CHF HBF
C McKenzie CTR Markworth
HF Sinclair CHF HFF
F Lonie McCartin Payne
R RUCK Minchington Curren
I/C

LTI: Siposs

that means we have minchington, curren, markworth all 3 years plus playing in the dev squad which is utter bullshit. no matter what you do you will have seasoned players playing in the dev squad. whilst we also probably want the likes on mckenzie and sinclair playing VFL seniors round 1. mccartin, goddard and lonie we probably want in there too, probably in patches. lonie the more likely of the three

so you can see pretty quickly that the rule will do us a dis-service in terms of development if we have a close to fully fit side

Especially when Curren has a VFL B&F to his name.
I guess injuries will come into it as well . But yep - a standalone VFL side would be nice when u look at it with a full squad available. Looks very hard to manage as it stands. I mean the VFL development league is really a waste of time.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Makes you wonder about longevity and contracts, etc.

It's one thing for a player to feel hard done by when they can't crack the seniors. But how will they feel if they can't even crack the seconds? This could very quickly lead to some players asking to be traded, much like Membrey just did.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Exactly. We have 30 on our lists who are currently under 24yo and obviously they won't all be getting regular games, so I dare say they won't all want to stick around to play VFL.

 

[Defacto]

Great points perse and arr. Will only be amplified as our younger players age a bit further and we bring in more young talent and places in both sides fluctuate based on form.

No way do you stick around if your playing devs because of a cap. You'd be livid. It does you no good

 

[crasha301]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of both? I would just go with whichever advantages the club the most.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Great points perse and arr. Will only be amplified as our younger players age a bit further and we bring in more young talent and places in both sides fluctuate based on form.

No way do you stick around if your playing devs because of a cap. You'd be livid. It does you no good

Yeah its going to make things interesting towards the end of the year.

 

[sonnywalters]

I guess for me Im not so worried about the trade fear. There wont be much demand from other clubs for guys playing VFL dev league. But for the players development. They need to be playing at least VFL to improve. As someone said - Membrey is a classic example. Will be interested to see how GWS manage it in the next few years as well. They have already had guys leave - Bruce, Jaksch, Whiley, O'Rourke, Giles who couldnt crack AFL and were stuck in the NEAFL.

 

[Defacto]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of both? I would just go with whichever advantages the club the most.

Well going standalone has many more advantages basically you have complete control over the setup of your reserves side. Using an affiliate means you have to manage another relationship and a group of stakeholders that can have different priorities to ours. Like any relationship it means compromise and give and take, which can be in conflict with our wants and needs, goals and objectives.

The one negative with going standalone is that it costs more money. You need to find additional players as well. Having said that, the doggies posted a healthy profit from their VFL side. So I'm not sure it's an entirely valid point. Especially since most sides now are boosting their development regardless of their VFL setup. So I think we have taken on quite a bit of this cost on already

The lease on Morrabin is very cheap also so it's not like we'll be hit hard on the facilities side of things

If we do it right and given the nostalgia of moorabin I don't see a reason why it can't be a money maker. Young families are more likely to attend VFL games where there's open spaces for the kids than they are to attend AFL games. The money from food and drink also goes straight into the clubs pocket. Sponsorship wise it gives us more exposure and a stronger link to the community

 

[crasha301]

Well going standalone has many more advantages basically you have complete control over the setup of your reserves side. Using an affiliate means you have to manage another relationship and a group of stakeholders that can have different priorities to ours. Like any relationship it means compromise and give and take, which can be in conflict with our wants and needs, goals and objectives.

The one negative with going standalone is that it costs more money. You need to find additional players as well. Having said that, the doggies posted a healthy profit from their VFL side. So I'm not sure it's an entirely valid point. Especially since most sides now are boosting their development regardless of their VFL setup. So I think we have taken on quite a bit of this cost on already

The lease on Morrabin is very cheap also so it's not like we'll be hit hard on the facilities side of things

If we do it right and given the nostalgia of moorabin I don't see a reason why it can't be a money maker. Young families are more likely to attend VFL games where there's open spaces for the kids than they are to attend AFL games. The money from food and drink also goes straight into the clubs pocket. Sponsorship wise it gives us more exposure and a stronger link to the community

Sounds great!

So basically if we have a standalone side we control everything.

I like being able to find our own players. Say we liked a player that didnt get drafted we could offer him a spot and work with them ect.

Perhaps could have even been able to keep gwilt around if we had a standalone side already.

 

[sonnywalters]

This issue is certainly amplified in January. By June we might be wondering where on earth we are going to find 22 players for the senior AFL side

But seriously - when you have a heap of youngsters under 23 like we will over the next few years - a stand alone side is clearly preferable for their development.
As many have mentioned - the alignment is very difficult. Some Sandy players get peeved and think some Saints listed players are no good and the whole environment can spiral downwards easily.
Overall - we just want to a win a flag. I grew up near Beach Rd Oval - so i like the Zebs - but for the Saints trying to win a flag in the next five-six years- the arrangement (any arrangement) is troublesome.

 

[Big Mart]

Vital that our draftees come into a professional outfit, a winning culture and experience finals success IMO

We ignored Sandy and Casey at our peril for years...
Players did not develop there at elite standards with elite expectations... It was treated as unimportant.
Players played like individuals... Lyon, Thomas and Watters shunned the Sandy and Casey organisations with pure arrogance
Players fed off that

A strong VFL team is essential for a developing senior team

 

[holllywood]

Hawthorn showed AFL teams can bend the rules to suit their interests, so we should do the same.

If the situation arises where we may have to play a player or two in the Development squad, just ask for 'special consideration' to play them in the VFL seniors team and we should be granted an exception.

 

[Defacto]

Sounds great!

So basically if we have a standalone side we control everything.

I like being able to find our own players. Say we liked a player that didnt get drafted we could offer him a spot and work with them ect.

Perhaps could have even been able to keep gwilt around if we had a standalone side already.

well said. on the player thing its a great point and something we have been doing for sandi (even if their supporters seem to forget it) essentially we've been doing that with the likes of cockie, dowler and now tdl and jones. those are just the ones that have come to mind. i'm sure there are others i am neglecting to mention

even just the past players would be nice, whilst we couldnt keep jones on as an AFL player there'd be something good about him still playing for the saints even if its the VFL. i wonder if we could have convinced other retirees to stay on, if we had our own VFL side. maybe lure them in with the captaincy

 

[Defacto]

This issue is certainly amplified in January. By June we might be wondering where on earth we are going to find 22 players for the senior AFL side

But seriously - when you have a heap of youngsters under 23 like we will over the next few years - a stand alone side is clearly preferable for their development.
As many have mentioned - the alignment is very difficult. Some Sandy players get peeved and think some Saints listed players are no good and the whole environment can spiral downwards easily.
Overall - we just want to a win a flag. I grew up near Beach Rd Oval - so i like the Zebs - but for the Saints trying to win a flag in the next five-six years- the arrangement (any arrangement) is troublesome.

well summed up!

 

[Defacto]

I guess for me Im not so worried about the trade fear. There wont be much demand from other clubs for guys playing VFL dev league. But for the players development. They need to be playing at least VFL to improve. As someone said - Membrey is a classic example. Will be interested to see how GWS manage it in the next few years as well. They have already had guys leave - Bruce, Jaksch, Whiley, O'Rourke, Giles who couldnt crack AFL and were stuck in the NEAFL.

maybe for mids that have a shorter time span to work out what theyre made of, but for talls its a different story. after 2 years a tall, given the cap, could have spent the majority of his time in the dev leagues. he may look at another club that doesnt have the cap and think it might be more desirable to go to a team where he can be guaranteed at a minimum senior VFL time

so potentially/hypothetically you could have a pierce, holmes, mccartin, white, goddard etc leave after their initial 2 years of finding themselves more often than not in the dev league. the likes of goddard and mccartin would still be sought after and have value after 2 years, even if its spent in the dev league

 

[gringo2011]

Well going standalone has many more advantages basically you have complete control over the setup of your reserves side. Using an affiliate means you have to manage another relationship and a group of stakeholders that can have different priorities to ours. Like any relationship it means compromise and give and take, which can be in conflict with our wants and needs, goals and objectives.

The one negative with going standalone is that it costs more money. You need to find additional players as well. Having said that, the doggies posted a healthy profit from their VFL side. So I'm not sure it's an entirely valid point. Especially since most sides now are boosting their development regardless of their VFL setup. So I think we have taken on quite a bit of this cost on already

The lease on Morrabin is very cheap also so it's not like we'll be hit hard on the facilities side of things

If we do it right and given the nostalgia of moorabin I don't see a reason why it can't be a money maker. Young families are more likely to attend VFL games where there's open spaces for the kids than they are to attend AFL games. The money from food and drink also goes straight into the clubs pocket. Sponsorship wise it gives us more exposure and a stronger link to the community

Moorabin struggles to hold a training session these days. The old parking area in front of the staff parking is planted with trees and the whole of the seating except the concrete stand are gone. There isn't even a fence to stop people walking up. I can't imagine how much it would cost just for fencing but I imagine
$60 000 on mates rates would be cheap. Seating would be in the hundreds of thousands. Parking is never going to get better.

 

[Periphery]

Moorabin struggles to hold a training session these days. The old parking area in front of the staff parking is planted with trees and the whole of the seating except the concrete stand are gone. There isn't even a fence to stop people walking up. I can't imagine how much it would cost just for fencing but I imagine
$60 000 on mates rates would be cheap. Seating would be in the hundreds of thousands. Parking is never going to get better.

Moorabbin is being redeveloped to the tune of $11m. I think it'd be safe to assume they have parking and fencing planned and budgeted for.

 

[Defacto]

Moorabin struggles to hold a training session these days. The old parking area in front of the staff parking is planted with trees and the whole of the seating except the concrete stand are gone. There isn't even a fence to stop people walking up. I can't imagine how much it would cost just for fencing but I imagine
$60 000 on mates rates would be cheap. Seating would be in the hundreds of thousands. Parking is never going to get better.

the place will be redeveloped and ready for us to host games there in 2017

 

[Nutsngum]

Hawthorn showed AFL teams can bend the rules to suit their interests, so we should do the same.

If the situation arises where we may have to play a player or two in the Development squad, just ask for 'special consideration' to play them in the VFL seniors team and we should be granted an exception.

I dont really agree with twisting the Zebras' arm about stuff though. The box hill hawks might as well be Hawthorn reserves but Sandringham is not the Sandringham Saints. We will have to make do for the time being but two years and we will be watching our boys play from moorabbin and all will be good.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Moorabin struggles to hold a training session these days. The old parking area in front of the staff parking is planted with trees and the whole of the seating except the concrete stand are gone. There isn't even a fence to stop people walking up. I can't imagine how much it would cost just for fencing but I imagine
$60 000 on mates rates would be cheap. Seating would be in the hundreds of thousands. Parking is never going to get better.

I go to a few Werribee VFL games. There is stuff all seats there. just a very small stand. The whole rest of the ground is a standing area. As most of the suburban VFL grounds are. Geelong being a exception of course.
Seats arent a big priority for the VFL. Just a fence. It wont break the bank just to put a wire fence around the Moorabbin ground.
Once the novelty of the first few home games wears off. The average VFL game crowd is very small.

 

[Periphery]

I go to a few Werribee VFL games. There is stuff all seats there. just a very small stand. The whole rest of the ground is a standing area. As most of the suburban VFL grounds are. Geelong being a exception of course.
Seats arent a big priority for the VFL. Just a fence. It wont break the bank just to put a wire fence around the Moorabbin ground.
Once the novelty of the first few home games wears off. The average VFL game crowd is very small.

I think the Huggins stand is getting a face lift with the redevelopment so there should be some seats available if we do pull some bigger crowds or people just want to be lazy and sit down.

I hope the club try to make the Saints VFL games played there a bit of an event. Decent food and drinks, some stuff for kids, merch and whatever else they can think of. If they can make it a good family friendly day out then people will go to it and the club could make some real coin while helping to build club loyalty and support. If the social club is staying (I think it is but I can't find any confirmation of that) and also getting a face lift then all this will help that make more money as well.

 

[Nutsngum]

I think the Huggins stand is getting a face lift with the redevelopment so there should be some seats available if we do pull some bigger crowds or people just want to be lazy and sit down.

I hope the club try to make the Saints VFL games played there a bit of an event. Decent food and drinks, some stuff for kids, merch and whatever else they can think of. If they can make it a good family friendly day out then people will go to it and the club could make some real coin while helping to build club loyalty and support. If the social club is staying (I think it is but I can't find any confirmation of that) and also getting a face lift then all this will help that make more money as well.

I think just the starting point of it being at Moorabbin and accessible is a massive bonus. Trevor Barker oval is a great oval but the parking there is just awful with the council restrictions, forcing you to park a reasonable walk away. Makes it harder for families with small kids etc and no public transport there is the nail in the coffin.

Moorabbin could be turned into a proper community hub as you say and be a REAL alternative to a day at the zoo or whatever for a Saints family. Proper facilities and stands are going to make it a much nicer experience for people to think "hey the footy is on, lets go down for a couple of hours". Also community outreaching to let people know that the VFL is still here and StKilda is here for you. Advertising around the area should be paramount. First few homegames should be completely free for everyone in my opinion, get people through and have a good experience.