VFL VFL team, Sandringham alignment & player development

[Defacto]

He was gifted game after game on back of 1-2 possession performances.

I don't doubt that. His performance were hardly stellar, I recall the frustration. My point was that dropping him back to the development squad didn't fix the issue and even if they had done it more it wouldn't have changed the outcome

Perhaps a smaller contract length would have changed the dynamic some what and maybe instilled a sense of urgency. At the very least it would have avoided the messy ending

In any case, his performance were not that great at Claremont either and was probably gifted games too. My point was Claremont obviously saw something because they didn't drop him much at all. Played 2 foxtel cup games, a semi and petty much a full season in the seniors

So there must be a reason why Claremont and Sandi gifted him games and I dare say it was due to doing the best thing by him in terms of his development as opposed to sending him to the reserves or development league which may have been seen as detrimental to his development

 

[Persevering Saint]

Ultimately, while I take your point, DF, about Winmar - the fact is, he had inherent attitudinal problems that nothing was going to fix - I don't think that detracts from Thunda's overall point.

For the most part last year, the Dev Squad was actually used by the Saints as a useful tool, rather than seen as a problem. It was primarily used for three purposes, all of them beneficial to the player specifically and to the club at large.

1. For players returning from injury, as a handy midway point between training and a VFL game. For players like Fish coming back from a long time on the sidelines, he probably needed to be eased into it without any pressure, and so allowing him to do that via the Dev squad was very useful. I might add, it was a useful tool that would have been unavailable to us if we had a standalone team.
2. For international development nominees, who are understandably not ready for VFL, let alone AFL. Heck, players like JBT aren't even rookies on our list yet. In an ideal world, they'd be playing some kind of TAC in preparation for their becoming rookies. Dev squad is good enough for now.
3. As a serious kick up the pants to players who are not fulfilling the coaches' requirements. Shame can be a powerful punishment, and if a player isn't returning from injury or an international, then they will probably find being relegated to the Dev squad very humiliating. I suspect any such action is done with a full knowledge of the player's specific psychological profile, as some players would find that so disheartening that they'd give up, while others would use it as motivation to mend their ways.

Finally, I recognise what I've already said: "for the most part". There were times (Holmes being a good example) where players had to play Dev squad when the club didn't want them to. But still, these were rather few and far between. Overall, the club used Dev squad as an extremely useful and effective tool - and the proof is in the pudding. The best example of the injury one is Fisher, and the best example of the discipline one is Spencaaa : both played well in our final few games, when we wouldn't have expected them to play at all earlier in the year. Perhaps their stints in the Dev squad actually helped that change come about.

 

[Defacto]

Ultimately, while I take your point, DF, about Winmar - the fact is, he had inherent attitudinal problems that nothing was going to fix - I don't think that detracts from Thunda's overall point.

For the most part last year, the Dev Squad was actually used by the Saints as a useful tool, rather than seen as a problem. It was primarily used for three purposes, all of them beneficial to the player specifically and to the club at large.

1. For players returning from injury, as a handy midway point between training and a VFL game. For players like Fish coming back from a long time on the sidelines, he probably needed to be eased into it without any pressure, and so allowing him to do that via the Dev squad was very useful. I might add, it was a useful tool that would have been unavailable to us if we had a standalone team.
2. For international development nominees, who are understandably not ready for VFL, let alone AFL. Heck, players like JBT aren't even rookies on our list yet. In an ideal world, they'd be playing some kind of TAC in preparation for their becoming rookies. Dev squad is good enough for now.
3. As a serious kick up the pants to players who are not fulfilling the coaches' requirements. Shame can be a powerful punishment, and if a player isn't returning from injury or an international, then they will probably find being relegated to the Dev squad very humiliating. I suspect any such action is done with a full knowledge of the player's specific psychological profile, as some players would find that so disheartening that they'd give up, while others would use it as motivation to mend their ways.

Finally, I recognise what I've already said: "for the most part". There were times (Holmes being a good example) where players had to play Dev squad when the club didn't want them to. But still, these were rather few and far between. Overall, the club used Dev squad as an extremely useful and effective tool - and the proof is in the pudding. The best example of the injury one is Fisher, and the best example of the discipline one is Spencaaa : both played well in our final few games, when we wouldn't have expected them to play at all earlier in the year. Perhaps their stints in the Dev squad actually helped that change come about.

well worded and i'd agree with all of that. my concern is that it will happen (i.e. a player is relegated to the devs) when we dont want it to happen. i dont want it forced on us. i want the coaches to be able to do what ever they want, if they think that is the best course of action to get the best out of our players.

if theres even 1 case of the above happening, then that is not good enough IMO and is a valid cause for concern, be it the best young player on our list or someone like JBT who is not even on the rookie or senior list yet

it will be interesting tracking this over the next two years to see how many player in the development team vs the seniors

 

[Periphery]

I really don't see it as that big a deal.

The coaches are more than capable of adjusting a players training for that week to account for any loss from playing in the dev squad. One game in the dev squad isn't going to derail a players entire career or significantly hurt their development.

 

[Big Mart]

Question if we had our own set up?

What if it gets to mid year and we have typical 8-10 players unavailable

That leaves 34/35 players playing?
That leaves 12 or 13 in the stand-alone seconds?

Where does the rest of the team come from?

The answer may be

We have a core of non-listed senior players in the team (ie/ nic lower at the dogs)

Another question
How's many (6/8/10)?

If we have few injuries
We who misses? The unlisted senior players who are most likely better that drafted kids and will help the team win, or drafted kids who will stall in development.
A) the non listed senior players
Then another question... Which older players would be willing to step aside when needed to to accommodate worse players?
Or
The kids miss... Causing bigger problems

If we have a glut of injuries... Then what?

Afaic there will never be a perfect solution .... And injury numbers are unpredictable

We went away from the old supplementary list years ago... Do we return to that?

 

[Mindtraveller]

Dont see a problem. We havent had that many available before. Wonder what the kids got out from okaying along side fish and schneider. If they need to be dropped they should. If they the 16th best saint for sandy and sandy dont want them, I hope it makes them work harder.

 

[ike2112]

When it comes time for standalone, there's a much more shallow VFL squad. Collingwood VFL were struggling to even get a team together by season end.
I doubt that really matters when you're standalone, as your primary aim is not winning games. But that poses a further sports science/dev question - should you be trying to win games? On the basis that a positive winning culture and playing in a well-functioning team have both been proven across various sports to be better for player development?

I haven't done a rake of investigation on this, but I do know Box Hill got good before Hawthorn did and whether there were specific reasons for it, I am sure it helps to be winning at VFL and getting lots of touches etc, when you then have to make the step up.

 

[Defacto]

When it comes time for standalone, there's a much more shallow VFL squad. Collingwood VFL were struggling to even get a team together by season end.
I doubt that really matters when you're standalone, as your primary aim is not winning games. But that poses a further sports science/dev question - should you be trying to win games? On the basis that a positive winning culture and playing in a well-functioning team have both been proven across various sports to be better for player development?

I haven't done a rake of investigation on this, but I do know Box Hill got good before Hawthorn did and whether there were specific reasons for it, I am sure it helps to be winning at VFL and getting lots of touches etc, when you then have to make the step up.

well it depends...if you're winning because of the impact of your VFL players rather than your AFL players then you'd question the value, wouldnt you?

 

[Defacto]

Question if we had our own set up?

What if it gets to mid year and we have typical 8-10 players unavailable

That leaves 34/35 players playing?
That leaves 12 or 13 in the stand-alone seconds?

Where does the rest of the team come from?

The answer may be

We have a core of non-listed senior players in the team (ie/ nic lower at the dogs)

Another question
How's many (6/8/10)?

If we have few injuries
We who misses? The unlisted senior players who are most likely better that drafted kids and will help the team win, or drafted kids who will stall in development.
A) the non listed senior players
Then another question... Which older players would be willing to step aside when needed to to accommodate worse players?
Or
The kids miss... Causing bigger problems

If we have a glut of injuries... Then what?

Afaic there will never be a perfect solution .... And injury numbers are unpredictable

We went away from the old supplementary list years ago... Do we return to that?

were'nt you one in favor of going standalone and calling for it a season or two ago?

 

[Nutsngum]

We would likely have a list of 10ish VFL players who will train with us or part of a partnership with a high end local football team.

Seriously, finding players to fill in the gaps will not be that difficult with a good relationship with some local clubs who will have some good talent available.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

I liken the current Sandringham / St Kilda arrangement, to that of a shared rental house, versus living in a property you own yourself.

The shared rental house is cheaper, but comes with a large number of compromises. Living there whilst it can be satisfying, has to accommodate the needs of all others in the house. Whereas in our own property, we not only can do as we want, we can make changes to the menu, social activities, house structure / layout, landscaping, etc.

The shared rental house served a purpose at a certain stage of our lives, but the purchase of our own property, whilst at a greater cost and increased responsibility, gives us so many more options going forward. Its more than time, that the Saints stopped sharing and controlled their own destiny. Roll on our own standalone team at Moorabbin.

 

[Big Mart]

No

I wasn't

I wasn't even on bigfooty a year or two ago

If affordable, viable, the model works and it's well resourced.... Yes a team out of Moorabbin would be good. But we ATM are better off to make an alignment work until facilities and finances are up to scratch
It's not a priority

Remember
A reserves side is actually a step backwards and there is a reason sides moved away from that in 2000/2001

 

[Big Mart]

Local clubs are always thrilled about having there best players in and out of the team and being unsettled.

It happens ATM with MPNFL team with Frankston Development team often requiring players from local teams or sending back players to local teams

It gives the teams the Tom ****

Ie/ This year a player played local finals having played one game in the regular season.

Q) which 'top end' local comp?

I would suggest

If we are going to partner the Southern FL (a poor comp)
Encourage some left over TAC Cup kids to play there and some senior non listed players nominate clubs to play for in case they don't get a game in our twos
It strengthens their comp whilst assisting us

 

[Defacto]

No

I wasn't

I wasn't even on bigfooty a year or two ago

If affordable, viable, the model works and it's well resourced.... Yes a team out of Moorabbin would be good. But we ATM are better off to make an alignment work until facilities and finances are up to scratch
It's not a priority

Remember
A reserves side is actually a step backwards and there is a reason sides moved away from that in 2000/2001

yeah you were:

Lots of people live in two houses??

I think you could change that to 'a few' Rather than 'lots'

A few very rich people who have a home in Brighton, and perhaps another in sorrento, and have a 7 figure salary.....most of us normal people just live in the one (of we are lucky enough to be in the market)

Cant use The holiday home analogy either, that doesn't stick, we are talking two facilities in operational use.... not a community camp we go to once a year.

We are not a wealthy club and surely cannot sustain two facilities.

My idea would involve restructuring the afl reserves and the VFL

And possibly separating training facilities and home bases/grounds.

I have never liked the VFL alignment competition, it has never been fully supported by either league and both have just taken what they need from each other.... Whilst its been symbiotic in its needs....there has always Been the us/them problem....friction and issues with mechanics.

The AFL development league should involve the Victorian clubs in the AFL

Their home grounds should/could be traditional grounds. The majority of supplementary players should be under 21 from sister clubs who get paid per game and they could nominate a couple of vetrans outside the list for leadership purposes, whom are paid by the club.

Teams in a 10 team competition
Carlton......Princes Park......
Collingwood...... Vic Park.......training base, Lexus Centre
Essendon ........ Windy Hill......training base at tullamarine
Footscray......... Whitten Oval.....
Geelong.......... Kardinya park
Hawthorn.........glenferie oval or box hill oval (shared) training base at waverly
Melbourne.......Casey fields (shared) training base....unknown
North Melb....... Arden street (or princess park shared)
Richmond....... Punt Rd Oval
Stkilda........... Moorabbin ........ Training base at Seaford

I think there would be a lot of interest in such a competition. The home grounds would require some upgrade as far as undercover grandstand to accommodate at least a couple of thousand with a change room and canteen. Some benching and grassed areas for sitting...much like Vic Park is currently and some toilet facilities. The money for this upgrading could be a combination of AFL funding/concil funding/club funding/sponsership...

Casey Fields facilities are about the right size and spend. I reckon you wouldget a couple of thou to each game. Sharing of grounds facilities could occur between some clubs either within the same league or other leagues.

The VFL should be a separate 10 team competition and a still viewed as a pathway for recruiting for mature age players.... And should have a sister club to provide supplementary players to AFL development league if need or receive excess afl listed players. Players would need to be nominated.

Traditional clubs
Port Melbourne.
Box Hill
Frankston
Werribee
Williamstown
Sandringham
Coburg
North Ballarat
Casey
Bendigo

Possibly a costly exercise initially, but in the long run would beneficial. The VFL would get its identity back, and should perhaps return to the VFA name....and still play the TFL/WAFL/SANFL annually
The AFL clubs would get control of development back.... Also appropriate size grounds for developing players to play on
Traditional home grounds would again be functional within the community.....
Income could be generated through gate costs/memberships/maybe TV exposure for games. Sponsorship would increase due to second tier team getting more exposure.
A big cost of clubs for income purposes is player payments....well, afl players get paid anyway by clubs so implementing this league would only be facilities and running costs. Even if this ran at a cost of an extra Millioner club... That is nothing for clubs who turn over between 50-100million annuall and the AFL could sink money into the league to make it viable.

Talk about flooding the market.... As the AFL want to do
To have the Second tier in the market place would also would be a feather in their cap.

Anyways

i guess thats a different bigmart

 

[Big Mart]

Was that post a couple of years ago?
No date on it....

That is a comment on the wider comp as a whole.... It has inherent problems and an uneven playing field wrt to a lot of things

And that is ideal world stuff... Not realistic

But as it sits... We have an alignment.
We need to make the best of it.

 

[ike2112]

I don't really see many people being really hard done by.

With Siposs and Spencer, attitude has been mentioned either in a veiled comment or outright, by Richo and McPhee/Hudson over the last two seasons. White doesn't hold any form, people have said he looks disinterested at VFL level and that he might be one of those players who will raise their game to the occasion; i.e. would play better in AFL. But that's not good enough in my view.
With Lee he had similar comments about 2 seasons ago (when he really had his big chance as Kosi was obviously done and Wilkes/Maister not great), then he got a chance and was just ok, then he had some very poor games (was it vs Geelong when he was awful?). We haven't helped him by messing him around (seriously, have you ever seen anyone more out of place in the ruck) but he has to shoulder much of the responsibility. I also felt players don't tend to kick to him. Yet they'll happily kick to Bruce, Membrey and they were even kicking to Simpkin when he was up there. If they're holding onto it though or kicking to a double-teamed Roo instead of Lee, you have to think there is a reason his teammates don't seem to back him.

Saunders is really the only one I think who has a legitimate shout at not getting a fair crack, as even with midfielders out Richo has played a utility type. That said, his VFL form is all over the place so he's not exactly knocking the door down.
Also think Curren is misused - he ought to be a ball-winner and nothing more. Yes he can tag or play defensively, but the problem then is when he gets the ball he himself is under pressure, and often in or near the forward 50 where it's a promising chance, but his skill level sees him fail more often than succeed. Put him in the middle and just let him collect and boot it forwards, I believe he's AFL level at that, but not at any other aspects of the game.
Also we've stuffed Murdoch over by moving him around all the time - was even mentioned again by Hudson this week that he was unfortunate to have to play to cover others, that's been the story of his career. Again though if he was just a bit better of a player, it wouldn't happen.

 

[gringo2011]

I don't really see many people being really hard done by.

With Siposs and Spencer, attitude has been mentioned either in a veiled comment or outright, by Richo and McPhee/Hudson over the last two seasons. White doesn't hold any form, people have said he looks disinterested at VFL level and that he might be one of those players who will raise their game to the occasion; i.e. would play better in AFL. But that's not good enough in my view.
With Lee he had similar comments about 2 seasons ago (when he really had his big chance as Kosi was obviously done and Wilkes/Maister not great), then he got a chance and was just ok, then he had some very poor games (was it vs Geelong when he was awful?). We haven't helped him by messing him around (seriously, have you ever seen anyone more out of place in the ruck) but he has to shoulder much of the responsibility. I also felt players don't tend to kick to him. Yet they'll happily kick to Bruce, Membrey and they were even kicking to Simpkin when he was up there. If they're holding onto it though or kicking to a double-teamed Roo instead of Lee, you have to think there is a reason his teammates don't seem to back him.

Saunders is really the only one I think who has a legitimate shout at not getting a fair crack, as even with midfielders out Richo has played a utility type. That said, his VFL form is all over the place so he's not exactly knocking the door down.
Also think Curren is misused - he ought to be a ball-winner and nothing more. Yes he can tag or play defensively, but the problem then is when he gets the ball he himself is under pressure, and often in or near the forward 50 where it's a promising chance, but his skill level sees him fail more often than succeed. Put him in the middle and just let him collect and boot it forwards, I believe he's AFL level at that, but not at any other aspects of the game.
Also we've stuffed Murdoch over by moving him around all the time - was even mentioned again by Hudson this week that he was unfortunate to have to play to cover others, that's been the story of his career. Again though if he was just a bit better of a player, it wouldn't happen.

I have never heard anyone say anything bad about Siposs' attitude. Spencer a lot of is is assumption and innuendo from fans making excuses to justify why he isn't getting a go. I would say his papers are stamped and he probably knows it. Somehow he needs to over come an injury then rush back to go flat out at a spot.
Lee was very good in his first season coming in and scoring goals. He then went backwards due to injury and opportunity. Members gets 5 games for one goal and not a lot of disposal yet is obviously highly rated, Lee did more and is written off never to play again. The fans back the team over the individual and claim it's all due to their lazy attitude.

 

[Mowman]

I hear ya and I've thought the same thing. Some players are given less opportunity, Richo certainly has his favourites.

Cant agree with this, the only reason a player wont get a game is because Richo and match committee don't think the player is meeting his KPI just have a look a Whites VFL stats not that impressive, I would rather him earn his spot then him be gifted a game. Didn't we say these things about Ledger how is he going ? If Spencer is cracking the shits instead of putting his head down and working his ass off get rid him. Only had to watch the young kids against the Bombers to see that the coaches message is getting through

 

[Mowman]

Does he have Favourites ? or is he rewarding the ones that are doing what is required to be an AFL player

 

[ike2112]

I have never heard anyone say anything bad about Siposs' attitude. Spencer a lot of is is assumption and innuendo from fans making excuses to justify why he isn't getting a go. I would say his papers are stamped and he probably knows it. Somehow he needs to over come an injury then rush back to go flat out at a spot.
Lee was very good in his first season coming in and scoring goals. He then went backwards due to injury and opportunity. Members gets 5 games for one goal and not a lot of disposal yet is obviously highly rated, Lee did more and is written off never to play again. The fans back the team over the individual and claim it's all due to their lazy attitude.

I was referring only to comments from Saints coaches, Sandringham game reports, and someone I know who is a Sandy fan (pre-alignment).
Siposs was getting called out by coaches for not providing enough pressure. The comments were actually quite harsh in tone - not "needs to apply more defensive pressure", it was "knows that his efforts on the defensive side are not up to standard, and he knows this must improve".
On White, he was playing dev squad at the start of last year, because frankly he was carrying extra timber, that was before his injury.

However I also think fans are overreacting a little - when drafted people said White will take longer than normal, and even then for tall forwards the normal development takes a while. It was "give him 5 years and he could be like Buddy". We've given him 2 and a bit. Now the only way that is fair, is if he is not meeting targets along the way, and/or that his effort and conditioning and learning is not up to scratch.

 

[Defacto]

hopefully SEN upload the audio with richo from today but there was some very very interesting comments in regards to stand alone vs alignment, especially in regards to control, coaching and also the seniors/cap debate we had on here earlier in the year

after i copped it earlier in the year and was told there would not be a player playing development squad due to the cap/that didnt deserve it, well its going to happen this weekend. spencer white, at no fault of his own, will be forced to play in the development squad. richo has had to go out of his way to make sure whites confidence is not affected by it and elaborated in detail how its not great and you need young players playing against VFL seniors and other AFL listed players. also elaborated on how theres more to winning for your VFL side that your AFL listed players play in, he cited the boxhill 2008 side as an example

so if i wasnt angry enough after hearing that

he then went on to talk about gilbert and how they were not happy that gilbert in the development squad was not played as per the clubs instruction. gilbert apparently was thrown into the ruck after having such a long lay off. this was an example of how in a standalone side you just wouldnt have this occur as you have your own coaches

so not only are we sacrificing the development of our younger player we've also had an injury prone senior player after such a long rehabilitation thrown into a risky scenario so a development side has a better chance of winning a game. a development side! not even a senior VFL side

our most important asset is our players especially our younger ones and their development. we've invested millions into their development, it is probably THE primary focus of our football department, yet we currently have a system/arrangement that means their development is less than optimal.

what a joke

 

[bird_man]

By the sounds of it Richo had nothing to do with White playing dev squad, quite the opposite, he sounded pissed off about it.

Richo actually said that White could only be a couple of weeks off a senior game.

As for Richo having favourites... Come off it.

 

[bird_man]

hopefully SEN upload the audio with richo from today but there was some very very interesting comments in regards to stand alone vs alignment, especially in regards to control, coaching and also the seniors/cap debate we had on here earlier in the year

after i copped it earlier in the year and was told there would not be a player playing development squad due to the cap/that didnt deserve it, well its going to happen this weekend. spencer white, at no fault of his own, will be forced to play in the development squad. richo has had to go out of his way to make sure whites confidence is not affected by it and elaborated in detail how its not great and you need young players playing against VFL seniors and other AFL listed players. also elaborated on how theres more to winning for your VFL side that your AFL listed players play in, he cited the boxhill 2008 side as an example

so if i wasnt angry enough after hearing that

he then went on to talk about gilbert and how they were not happy that gilbert in the development squad was not played as per the clubs instruction. gilbert apparently was thrown into the ruck after having such a long lay off. this was an example of how in a standalone side you just wouldnt have this occur as you have your own coaches

so not only are we sacrificing the development of our younger player we've also had an injury prone senior player after such a long rehabilitation thrown into a risky scenario so a development side has a better chance of winning a game. a development side! not even a senior VFL side

our most important asset is our players especially our younger ones and their development. we've invested millions into their development, it is probably THE primary focus of our football department, yet we currently have a system/arrangement that means their development is less than optimal.

what a joke

Unfortunately we have no one to blame but ourselves by not having a stand alone side yet. Very disappointing.

I still don't understand even with the cap how White doesn't make the best side though? Had a pretty good game last week by all reports.

 

[SK_MD_#7]

By the sounds of it Richo had nothing to do with White playing dev squad, quite the opposite, he sounded pissed off about it.

Richo actually said that White could only be a couple of weeks off a senior game.

As for Richo having favourites... Come off it.

Yep. People are quick to write Spence off because of him being sent to the reserves.

They weren't going to drop their own Brown to the reserves.

Weren't dropping Paddy. Could you imagine the media if he got sent there?

Membrey just dropped from the AFL side so don't think he was ever going straight to the reserves.

Those reasons are why White is back there. Good to hear Richo say he is very important to the team.

 

[Defacto]

By the sounds of it Richo had nothing to do with White playing dev squad, quite the opposite, he sounded pissed off about it.

Richo actually said that White could only be a couple of weeks off a senior game.

As for Richo having favourites... Come off it.

thats how i took it as well

sounded like the ABSOLUTE last thing he wanted to happen. sounded like he was worried about whites confidence which to me suggests thats one of the challenges they have with him

i am seriously pissed off