Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[doppleganger]

So what?

That was my reaction to you talking about Brisbane's "dire" 5 year period.

Poor Brisbane had a short poor period (where fans dropped away) bookended by sustained dominance - 8 top4 finishes, 6 GFs and 4 flags.

Meanwhile, the AFL lets those "VICBiased" advantaged Melbourne based clubs spend 20+ years without even making a PF or winning a final...let alone talking GFs and flags.

 

[Freomaniac]

That was my reaction to you talking about Brisbane's "dire" 5 year period.

Poor Brisbane had a short poor period (where fans dropped away) bookended by sustained dominance - 8 top4 finishes, 6 GFs and 4 flags.

Meanwhile, the AFL lets those "VICBiased" advantaged Melbourne based clubs spend 20+ years without even making a PF or winning a final...let alone talking GFs and flags.

Brisbane didnt make a grand final for 19 years.

So the Collingwood magpies won the 2023 flag against the odds?

 

[doppleganger]

I dont think The Docklands tenants are the lowest on the list. If you wanna know why, Just look at the 2016 AFL grand final. Most Neutrals wanted the Bulldogs to win over the Swans.

Is that your evidence!?

Team A - The Dogs

The Dogs were a team that had only ever made two GFs in their history to that point (1954 and 1961).

The Dogs were the cinderella team, who came from 7th, had to win 3 away finals to even make it.

Team B - The Swans

Sydney were a team that had played in 4 of the previous 11 GFs, winning 2 of them.

The Swans were the minor premier, who had already lost a home final.

Of course neutrals are going to fecking go for the underdog battler.

That is the point...Marvel tenants are the battlers, everyone knows it (apparently except for some deluded WA wowsers).

Given the choice and I want your honest opinion... If its a North Melbourne vs Adelaide grand final, who would you want to see win?

A nil all draw, both are irrelevant clubs for mine.

Both aint won anything since the 90s, so no real drought breaker narrative to go for.

It would be purely based on player / coach affinity. Currently North have Clarko who I dislike and L.McDonald as a meh captain, so rather see Nicks and Dawson holding up the cup if that the only choice.

 

[Freomaniac]

That was my reaction to you talking about Brisbane's "dire" 5 year period.

Poor Brisbane had a short poor period (where fans dropped away) bookended by sustained dominance - 8 top4 finishes, 6 GFs and 4 flags.

Meanwhile, the AFL lets those "VICBiased" advantaged Melbourne based clubs spend 20+ years without even making a PF or winning a final...let alone talking GFs and flags.

Again... Brisbane didnt make a grand final after 2004 until 2023.

You club has made As much grand finals as Brisbane since 1990

 

[Freomaniac]

The WA whinging and SA sooking really should be directed at the teams who get the leg up from the AFL.

Not sure how anybody can think the AFL is looking after StK, North, Melbourne or WBulldogs?

If the AFL were that nasty, They would let the saints, dogs and Kangaroos rot. Or even worse, force them to Merge like Brisbane and Fitzroy did in 1996 or Relocate like the South Melbourne did in 1982 or worse, fold them.

 

[doppleganger]

Brisbane didnt make a grand final for 19 years.

A cute gap compared to droughts experienced by the battler Melbourne teams.

So the Collingwood magpies won the 2023 flag against the odds?

Are you also poor at probability?

Pies best team all year.
Pies minor premier.
Pies playing at home.
Pies were the favourite.

But all the neutrals were going for Brisbane...which is a key tenant and "evidence" of advantage. So yes Collingwood had to overcome the neutrals rooting for Brisbane.

 

[doppleganger]

Again... Brisbane didnt make a grand final after 2004 until 2023.

You club has made As much grand finals as Brisbane since 1990

I repeatedly acknowledge that Collingwood isnt disadvantaged like the other Melbourne based clubs...because Eddie was smart enough to use our people power as leverage to negotiate some favourable commercial deals.

So we are able to at least compete with the favoured non Melbourne clubs.

 

[Freomaniac]

Geelong's advantage is that the VIC Govt built them a new stadium, so they get a much better stadium deal than ALL Melbourne based teams.

They also have the geographical benefit from the one team, one town (well really entire surf coast) which is attractive to many players from that area.

Ah Yes the Geelong bashing bit

Oh look Bailey Smith is out of contract. We can get him for free. Offer him a 3 million dollars over 5 or 6 years. Pay him $600,000 a year for 5 years or $500,000 a year for 6 years.

WHen his contract is up, he can retire and give him a (dope or cocaine or weed) farm as a gift. lol

 

[Freomaniac]

Yep, Eddie getting us the good commercial deal that locked in 14 MCG home games. It was a brilliant move.

Back in the 2000s, Richmond had some years where they only had 9 MCG games...the good old VICBias coming through again.

So Collingwood getting 14 MCG home games is fine.... ok

 

[Freomaniac]

Yep, Eddie getting us the good commercial deal that locked in 14 MCG home games. It was a brilliant move.

Back in the 2000s, Richmond had some years where they only had 9 MCG games...the good old VICBias coming through again.


Yes.

Adelaide and Port both play 13 games at AO, only the Saints get similar volume of games at Marvel.

Adelaide and Port both play "home" finals at AO, no Marvel tenant gets "home" finals at Marvel.

Adelaide and Port both play 10 games outside of Adelaide, in 2024 North played 11 games outside of Melbourne.

Thur/Fri night games - Adelaide had 7 and Port had 6, WB had 6, StK had 4, North just 1

How are Marvel clubs getting better treatment?

So.... Magpies getting 14 home games at the MCG is fine...


But its an outrage that Port and crows get 13 home games At adelaide oval because of Gather round?


As far as Friday night games are concerned, How many friday night games have the dockers had from 2017 onwards?

And at the Same time, you are Crying about North bias!

 

[Freomaniac]

Try reading. Non-Melbourne.

It is only lazy SA sooks that run with VICBias trying to pretend all VIC teams are the same.

It is the Melbourne based teams that were shafted by AFL House policy.

Geelong and Tassie Hawks (the successful VIC clubs) fixtures are much closer to Port and Sydney than it is to Carlton, Ess or Coll.

The fixture clearly favours teams who have a home ground advantage, aka the non-Melbourne based teams.

Its North Bias now.... You started this madness now suffer the consequences LoL

 

[Freomaniac]

Yeesh, don’t we all….

It's North bias now...

As a saints fan, allow me to tell you where you are on the pecking order when it comes to the AFL order of which teams that they prefer to win flags every year.....


1. Northern states of Queensland (Brisbane and gold coast) and NSW GWS and Sydney). Mainly for decent tv ratings for finals and AFL Grand finals.

2. Vic teams that play home by games at MCG (Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Richmond, Melbourne, Hawthorn).

3. Geelong.... Cats make more money getting 35,000 to 40,000 at Kardinia than 55,000 at Docklands.

4. Vic sides that play at Docklands. (Saints, dogs and Kangaroos). Docklands tenants getting 15-20,000 vs non Vic sides won't be looked favourably to the AFL.

5. WA clubs. AFL are happy with west coast getting 50,000 a game at $60 a ticket

6. SA teams. If the people that Run the AFL saw the sa poo fight threads on bay 13, the AFL will do everything in their power to prevent either SA club making another grand final.

 

[Freomaniac]

We removed the vicbias from the grand final and played a team from Sydney and flogged them. Imagine if the GF was played at a neutral venue #VICBIAS #premiershipswithan*

It's not vicbias any more.

It's Northbias LoL

 

[doppleganger]

So Collingwood getting 14 MCG home games is fine.... ok

So.... Magpies getting 14 home games at the MCG is fine...

You are repeating yourself.
The point which you continue to miss is that it is ONLY Collingwood who get 14 MCG games

Hawthorn, Essendon and Carlton get just 8 or 9 games at the G.

But its an outrage that Port and crows get 13 home games At adelaide oval because of Gather round?

You are saying it is an outrage.

I am just pointing out how SA teams are better off than the small Melbourne teams.

You are yet to inform why you rank SA teams lower than the Marvel tenants.

And at the Same time, you are Crying about North bias!

Yeah because the WA wowsers amd SA sooks dont complain about Brisbane with their 8th top4 finish, 6th GF and 4 premiership but lock in on teams like NM and Carlton...who have combined to not even play in a GF in the 21st century.

The AFL wants to win over Sydney and Brisbane.

Northernbias is real.

 

[kranky al]

So you say NorthBias or Northen Bias is real eh?

So The WA and SA clubs are the sloppy 3rds in The AFL bedroom?

So According to you and the AFL, This is the rankings on which sides the AFL treats well...

1. North Bias: So Queensland (Brisbane and Gold Coast) and NSW clubs (Sydney and GWS).

2. Vic Bias (the 10 victorian) clubs

3. The WA and SA bias.

Mind you I think the AFL have seen the Toxic Bay 13 poo threads between the SA clubs and have tried everything to prevent the SA clubs in winning a flag.

I am curious on how Tassie will be in this ranking.

If you disagree Dopple ganger, please rank in your View which group of sides the AFL want to see become successful. I am alway curious with your thoughts.

I’d take it further and separate the clubs that play regular games at the g and those that don’t.

 

[Atomboy]

It's North bias now...

As a saints fan, allow me to tell you where you are on the pecking order when it comes to the AFL order of which teams that they prefer to win flags every year.....


1. Northern states of Queensland (Brisbane and gold coast) and NSW GWS and Sydney). Mainly for decent tv ratings for finals and AFL Grand finals.

2. Vic teams that play home by games at MCG (Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Richmond, Melbourne, Hawthorn).

3. Geelong.... Cats make more money getting 35,000 to 40,000 at Kardinia than 55,000 at Docklands.

4. Vic sides that play at Docklands. (Saints, dogs and Kangaroos). Docklands tenants getting 15-20,000 vs non Vic sides won't be looked favourably to the AFL.

5. WA clubs. AFL are happy with west coast getting 50,000 a game at $60 a ticket

6. SA teams. If the people that Run the AFL saw the sa poo fight threads on bay 13, the AFL will do everything in their power to prevent either SA club making another grand final.

Probably about right

 

[Outtatym]

So..... you Think The small Melboune based clubs are the lowest on the list?

The AFL would rather have one of the Saints or North Melbourne win a flag over Port or Crows or Dockers or eagles.

Come on FM. This is rubbish and you know it.

 

[sr36]

Ok.... this reply deserves its own spot.... Mainly because you brought up the Victorian clubs.

But you listed 7 Specific Victorian clubs and we are gonna go through all of them.... this is gonna be a long post.

Saying that, you specifically chose certain Victorian sides.

Carlton: Well lets start off with them... Why didnt they play finals from 2002-08 and 2014-22? Carlton struggled in 2002-7 due to 2 reasons.

1. Over reliance on the Old dudes from their 1995 and 1999 grand final sides. They didnt draft well or draft many kids in 1997-2001. Carlton won the spoon in 2002. They had their 1st round picks of 2002, 2003 and 2004 taken away due to salary cap breaches in 1998-2001. Yet the crows in 2012 got done with salary cap breaches with a Dodgy Kurt tippet contract. Only difference was the Crows drafted well in 2007-09, which is suprising as they made finals each year from 2007, 2008 and 2009.

Why Carlton didnt make finals in 2014-22? Because they made finals in 2009-11. They didnt make finals in 2012 and sacked Brett Ratten. Carlton board thought... Mick Malthouse is Available, he is a successful and experienced coach, he can take us to the next step. Carlton made finals in 2013, Malthouse got sacked in 2015 after no finals in 2014 and 2015.

It took a while for Carlton to become decent. But yeah, Carlton shot them selves on the foot in certain years. Carlton has had money but spend it unwisely on the wrong players and wrong staff members.

North Melbourne: In the 1990s, they were great. Some of those key players from 1988 were 18 or 19 or 20 year olds. 8 years later, they won the flag in 1996 as 26 or 27 or 28 year olds. North Melbourne are not a Consistent force over a 60 or 80 or 100 year period Like Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon or Hawthorn.

They Made a grand final in 1950 and lost. They made 5 grand finals in a row from 1974 to 1978. They won 1975 and 1977 and lost the other 3. They then made grand finals in 1996, 1998 and 1999... they won 1996 and 1999. They made a prelim final in 2000, missed out on finals in 2001, made an elim final in 2002 and then Dennis Pagan left at the end of 2002.

From 2003 onwards, they never really had an honest shot at the flag. 2007 was the legit last time they made a prelim final the normal way of finishing in the top 4 at the end of regular season then made a prelim final. Yes North made prelim finals in 2014 and 2015. but both years they finished out side the top 4 and won 2 finals to make a prelim.

North Melbournes lack of Success comes down to 2 reasons.

1. Its North Melbourne. They are not Collingwood or Carlton or hawks. A powerhouse club with lots of money.

2. North Melbournes recruiting and drafting since 2009 has been terrible. Again... North dont have a lot of money to get elite coaches and scouts. If they did, they would of won another flag from 2000 onwards.

Melbourne: Well they made a grand final in 2000. Missed out on finals in 2001, made finals in 2002. Missed out on finals in 2003, Made finals in 2004-6. Missed out on finals in 2007 and then Sacked Neale Daniher. They had the rebuild. Demons had Dean Bailey as coach from 2008 to 2011. Dean Bailey tried to build up the demons side. He put all his eggs in one basket and tried to get the demons to finals in 2011, he didnt and was sacked. He claimed he did what was best for the demons, in a way he indirectly said the demons tanked in his early years at the demons.

Demons didnt play one final from 2007-2017. They made finals in 2018 under Simon Goodwin. They eventually won a flag in 2021 under Simon Goodwin. Yeah they won the 2021 grand final out side the MCG, in WA to be exact but it was a long drought going back to 1964.

Demons lack of success from 2001-2017 was basically, they fielded some good sides but not a top side to win. Their 2007-17 period was tough, Similar to Brisbanes dire 2010-18 period. But both teams eventually got a flag in the end after a long period of no finals.

Essendon: They won a flag in 2000. Then made another grand final in 2001. They were still good. won elim finals vs West coast in 2002, Dockers in 2003 and Demons in 2004. They have not won a final since beating the demons in 2004. They have made a fair bit of elim finals Since 2004 but sadly not won one.

Essendon have suffered a similar fate to Carlton. Both have won 16 flags each. Both have big supporter bases and lots of money. But sadly wasted money on the wrong players and staff members.


Western Bulldogs: Made a fair few prelim finals since 1990: 1992, 1997, 1998, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2016, 2021. The Dogs have Been punching above their weight Since 2000. They made prelim finals for 3 years in a row from 2008 to 2010. Dogs were one of the top sides but they were never the best side in the comp in that period. Saints, cats and other clubs were just better than the dogs in that period..

Dogs did win a flag in 2016. Mind you they finished 7th a drought going back to 1954. They were not the best side but were the best performing side in september. They had a home ground advantage vs the Swans in that Grand final.

Dogs Made another grand final in 2021 outside the top 4. But they got smashed by the demons after half time.

Saint Kilda: Like the dogs and North Melbourne, they are a docklands Tenant but not a consistent victorian power house. Saying that, The saints had a few chances for a flag. Saints have had their fair share of finals since 2000. Yeah they made a grand final in 1997 and finals again in 1998. But had to rebuild from 1999 to 2003. Made finals in 2004-6. They had chances to make a grand final in 2004 and 2005.


in 2004, The saints narrowly lost to Port in 2004 by 6 points. In 2005, they lead by 2 or 3 goals vs the swans at 3 quater time but lost. The saints sacked Grant Thomas at the end of 2006. Ross Lyon is brought in. He was saints coach from 2007 to 2011. Saints had made grand finals in 2009 and 2010. But fell short in both those years. They could of won one or possibly both but didnt. they made finals in 2011, didnt make finals from 2012 to 2019. Made finals in 2020, missed out in 2021 and 2022, made an elim final in 2023 and missed out on finals in 2024.


The weird thing about the saints is, they could of won a flag between 2004-2010. Had the saints won the premiership in etheir 2004 or 2005, then I dont think Ross Lyon would be coaching the saints in 2007.

Richmond: They have had their fair share of tough times. From 1983-2012. they only made finals in 2 of those 30 years. That is 1995 and 2001. But talking about 2001 onwards. They made finals in 2001, didnt play finals again until 2013.

Richmond made finals in 2013-5. Missed out on finals in 2016. They then had that 2017 to 2020 run. They won a flag in 2017, made a prelim in 2018 , won flags in 2019 and 2020. Yes the 2020 grand final vs Geelong was in Queensland. It as a "Neutral" grand final because both sides had no home ground advantage. Same with the 2024 grand final. Tigers missed out on finals in 2021, made finals again in 2022 but missed out of finals in 2023 and 2024.

Richmond had their struggles but they did some Important thing at the end of 2009 in Getting Brendon Gale as CEO, Hardwick as coach and Dusty martin in the 2009 draft.

I dont personally hate Richmond or their (Bigfooty) fans. But no one complained when Richmond were horrible from 1983 to 2012. But when they won 3 flags in 2017, 2019 and 2020, teams and posters cry foul.


At the end of the day.... All those teams struggled due to a combination of things. Its down to a few reasons... Its either over estimation of the playing squad, Bad Recruiting/ trading, bad umpiring decisions, bad coaching, bad development, club is poorly run, club is unlucky or a mixture of a lot of things.


We Talk about fairness and eveness and Equalization....

Doppleganger, Your magpies have won the 1990, 2010 and 2023 flags. Had your team added and won the 2002, 2003 and 2011 flags on the list, would you really be moaning? thats 6 flags Since 1990 or 5 flags won since 2000.

My theory about recent Vic dominance of flags.

Vic produces and drafts the most footballers. Players prefer to move to good teams. Player movement results in the best Vic teams becoming very good and the worst Vic teams becoming very bad. Flags and spoons go to Victoria.

However, academy advantage has been over-cooked and is only just beginning to kick in. Thus the Vic era is over and it's the time for the North.

 

[sr36]

If the AFL were that nasty, They would let the saints, dogs and Kangaroos rot. Or even worse, force them to Merge like Brisbane and Fitzroy did in 1996 or Relocate like the South Melbourne did in 1982 or worse, fold them.

The AFL tried to do these things - they weren't able to. They can't actually force mergers or clubs to relocate or fold, plus these days the AFL is funded by huge tv deals built around a comp with lots of teams, so they have no interest in it anymore.

 

[Freomaniac]

Come on FM. This is rubbish and you know it.

Well doppleganger might have a point.

Don't get wrong , you want North Melbourne to win another flag. But is North winning the flag gonna grow the game for the AFL?

Victorian tv ratings won't get higher. It's not gonna attract a lot of New Victorian fans.

Crows or Port winning a flag isn't gonna increase the presence the AFL already has in SA either.


AFL has got all of Victoria won over with those 6.5 million fans.

The AFL were happy with a Brisbane vs Sydney grand final.

There is 5 or 6 million people in Queensland and 8 million in NSW.

AFL is obsessed in getting more fans in the Northern states.

 

[Freomaniac]

Probably about right

Yep....

So saints are behind the 2 NSW clubs, the 2 Queensland clubs, the 6 Vic sides that play home games at the MCG and Geelong.

So according to the AFL there would be 11 AFL sides they want to see win a flag over the saints.

The NSW and Queensland sides due to more tv ratings up North.

The MCG tenants as The AFL would rather have Richmond get 80,000 at the MCG than saints getting 40,000 at Docklands.

And there is Geelong.... They can make more money getting 40,000 at Kardinia Park than saints getting 55,000 at Docklands.

 

[The Feeder Club]

The AFL tried to do these things - they weren't able to. They can't actually force mergers or clubs to relocate or fold, plus these days the AFL is funded by huge tv deals built around a comp with lots of teams, so they have no interest in it anymore.

The first bit is not 100% accurate. They can't force mergers or relocations but they can withdraw a license with a vote of the commission. The club won't technically fold, but it won't be playing in the AFL. Faced with such a prospect a club may choose to merge or relocate if that leads to some form of survival.
The second bit is accurate, the have no appetite to do it so we're stuck with a seriously flawed sporting competition as those running it are overwhelmingly driven by commercial considerations at the expense a fairer competition

 

[JackOutback]

Come on FM. This is rubbish and you know it.

I actually don't think it is. The AFL were ecstatic when the Bulldogs and Melbourne won their grand finals, fairytales come true. They would love the Saints to win one and break their drought, far more than Port winning one.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The first bit is not 100% accurate. They can't force mergers or relocations but they can withdraw a license with a vote of the commission.

Not sure that is correct, such a move (withdraw licence) would have to go to a vote of all clubs, who would probably have to consult their members. Not likely to get up. Unlikely HQ are able to just withdraw a licence at their whim.

The second bit is accurate, the have no appetite to do it so we're stuck with a seriously flawed sporting competition as those running it are overwhelmingly driven by commercial considerations at the expense a fairer competition

Correct, so now what?

 

[Carringbush2010]

They would love the Saints to win one and break their drought, far more than Port winning one.

This is opinion not fact, based on a vibe.