Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[peetoo]

There's probably half a million paying fans and members at the time.

We've seen the failed merger proposal with the dees in 96, punch ons and all out war between pro and opposing merger proponents at the times.

If you'd wanna see these clubs move to other leagues, this would've been the way to do it.

Even if you could get a symbolically equal merger, if less than half of each club membership approve/vote for it, the new club has less supporters than the bigger of the two clubs goung in

 

[Carringbush2010]

Even if you could get a symbolically equal merger, if less than half of each club membership approve/vote for it, the new club has less supporters than the bigger of the two clubs goung in

True dat, fact is mergers aren't accepted by fans, has been proven with your mob and the dees in 96. Was emphatically rejected in the end.

 

[peetoo]

kranky al , ep2018 , matthew_s and Keys , and Forward Press , the Victorians are suffering. They think the AFL gives preferential treatment to the Queensland and NSW clubs. The Northern states of you will.

The Victorians admit that the Northbias is real. LoL

And still Sydney poo the bed

 

[doppleganger]

They think the AFL gives preferential treatment to the Queensland and NSW clubs. The Northern states of you will.

There is no think.

It is a fact that the AFL has a strategic priority to grow the game in non-traditional football markets New South Wales and Quuensland.

Northernbias is real.

The AFL wants Sydney to be successful, so is anybody surprised that Sydney have made finals in 20 of the 24 seasons in the 21st century (the most of any club), and played in 7 GFs (the most GFs of any clubs).

But WA wowsers think North, StK and Melbourne are advantaged by some imaginary VICBias

 

[Freomaniac]

And still Sydney poo the bed

Xtreme we have all been sadly influenced by Vince McMahon.... Especially the poo jokes. lol

 

[Freomaniac]

Laughs at you in fluent port…


Also laughs at you in fluent, you can come 8th and never leave the mcg for finals….

You might have a Point about this....

I am suprised a Victorian Side hasnt finished out side the top 4 and not won the flag... Acutally the dogs did it in 2016.

Ok more specific. I am suprised in a way That a collingwood or Hawthorn or Richmond side hasnt won a flag finishing 5th or 6th or 7th or 8th, then plays 4 finals in a row at the MCG vs a Victorian club.

 

[Freomaniac]

There is no think.

It is a fact that the AFL has a strategic priority to grow the game in non-traditional football markets New South Wales and Queensland.

Northernbias is real.

The AFL wants Sydney to be successful, so is anybody surprised that Sydney have made finals in 20 of the 24 seasons in the 21st century (the most of any club), and played in 7 GFs (the most GFs of any clubs).

But WA wowsers think North, StK and Melbourne are advantaged by some imaginary VICBias

So you say NorthBias or Northen Bias is real eh?

So The WA and SA clubs are the sloppy 3rds in The AFL bedroom?

So According to you and the AFL, This is the rankings on which sides the AFL treats well...

1. North Bias: So Queensland (Brisbane and Gold Coast) and NSW clubs (Sydney and GWS).

2. Vic Bias (the 10 victorian) clubs

3. The WA and SA bias.

Mind you I think the AFL have seen the Toxic Bay 13 poo threads between the SA clubs and have tried everything to prevent the SA clubs in winning a flag.

I am curious on how Tassie will be in this ranking.

If you disagree Dopple ganger, please rank in your View which group of sides the AFL want to see become successful. I am alway curious with your thoughts.

 

[Xtreme]

Xtreme we have all been sadly influenced by Vince McMahon.... Especially the poo jokes. lol

Indeed!!

 

[Freomaniac]

AFL would have been filthy that a small Melbourne team ruined things back then too.

Although I think the late 90s was when North had dropped North Melbourne and were "The Kangaroos" and playing games in NSW and ACT.

this might take a while to quote some of your posts.....

In a way Yes.... But North Melbourne in the 1990s, Specifically from 1994-99 when they at least made prelim finals, were a good side.

LOL at fair share

Sydney have played in the most GFs of any club in the 21st century.

AFL wants them to be successful.

Well the Sydney swans making a few grand finals since 1996 is a testament to how good they are. I do envy them being run well. Same with Port Adelaide under coach Ken Hinkley from 2013 onwards.

Saying that the SA clubs , The WA clubs and Victorian clubs have good local state leagues. SA has the SANFL, WA has WAFL, Victoria has, despite having 10 Vic Clubs, can get local talent in the VFL and TAC cup or under 18s cup (the Vic country league). You can complain about NSW and Queensland academy camps all you want. But persuade the AFL to invest money in NSW and Queensland state league to produce AFL draftees.

For a non vic side to make finals spot in the top 8 back in the 1990s and 2000s, They just need to win 12 games. So.... 8 or 9 or 10 games at home and 2 or 3 or 4 away games vs bottom 4 or bottom 6 sides.

I agree with that.

If Port stopped losing home finals they also would have featured in more GFs.

But another supporter base that complains loudly.

I agree on your view on Port Adelaide. We can go into a different conversation on Port and their violent and toxic hatred towards Ken Hinkley, but thats off topic.

But since you mentioned it. Yep Port finished 2nd in 2024. Got belted in that Qualifying final vs the cats.

Port could of and should of made that 2020 AFL grand final. Won the Qualifying final vs the cats, lost narrowly in the home prelim vs the tigers.

We can add 2021 as well. Again, won the QF vs the cats then got belted in a home prelim vs the dogs.

 

[HotelBastardos]

The whole thing seems moot when The AFL literally stole Gaz Jnr from geelong, a Vic team to prop them up, possibly costing geelong more flags. Was an unheard of ,off the books offer, definately not Vic Bias. And yeah they will probably do it again for Tassie.

 

[Freomaniac]

6 GFs and 4premierships more than offsets some time at the bottom.

The 7 Melbourne based teams are the teams who struggle

Carlton have had 0 MCG GFs and 5 spoons
North 0 MCG GFs and 2 spoons
Melb 0 MCG GFs and 2 spoons
Essendon 1 MCG GF (for a loss) and 1 spoon
WBulldogs 1 MCG GF (a win) and 1 spoon
StK 2 MCG GFs (both losses) and 1 spoon
Rich 2 MCG GFs (both wins) and 3 spoons

They have combined for just 6 GF appearances, for 3 flags (less than Brisbane) but have combined for 15 spoons.

Northernbias is real

Ok.... this reply deserves its own spot.... Mainly because you brought up the Victorian clubs.

But you listed 7 Specific Victorian clubs and we are gonna go through all of them.... this is gonna be a long post.

Saying that, you specifically chose certain Victorian sides.

Carlton: Well lets start off with them... Why didnt they play finals from 2002-08 and 2014-22? Carlton struggled in 2002-7 due to 2 reasons.

1. Over reliance on the Old dudes from their 1995 and 1999 grand final sides. They didnt draft well or draft many kids in 1997-2001. Carlton won the spoon in 2002. They had their 1st round picks of 2002, 2003 and 2004 taken away due to salary cap breaches in 1998-2001. Yet the crows in 2012 got done with salary cap breaches with a Dodgy Kurt tippet contract. Only difference was the Crows drafted well in 2007-09, which is suprising as they made finals each year from 2007, 2008 and 2009.

Why Carlton didnt make finals in 2014-22? Because they made finals in 2009-11. They didnt make finals in 2012 and sacked Brett Ratten. Carlton board thought... Mick Malthouse is Available, he is a successful and experienced coach, he can take us to the next step. Carlton made finals in 2013, Malthouse got sacked in 2015 after no finals in 2014 and 2015.

It took a while for Carlton to become decent. But yeah, Carlton shot them selves on the foot in certain years. Carlton has had money but spend it unwisely on the wrong players and wrong staff members.

North Melbourne: In the 1990s, they were great. Some of those key players from 1988 were 18 or 19 or 20 year olds. 8 years later, they won the flag in 1996 as 26 or 27 or 28 year olds. North Melbourne are not a Consistent force over a 60 or 80 or 100 year period Like Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon or Hawthorn.

They Made a grand final in 1950 and lost. They made 5 grand finals in a row from 1974 to 1978. They won 1975 and 1977 and lost the other 3. They then made grand finals in 1996, 1998 and 1999... they won 1996 and 1999. They made a prelim final in 2000, missed out on finals in 2001, made an elim final in 2002 and then Dennis Pagan left at the end of 2002.

From 2003 onwards, they never really had an honest shot at the flag. 2007 was the legit last time they made a prelim final the normal way of finishing in the top 4 at the end of regular season then made a prelim final. Yes North made prelim finals in 2014 and 2015. but both years they finished out side the top 4 and won 2 finals to make a prelim.

North Melbournes lack of Success comes down to 2 reasons.

1. Its North Melbourne. They are not Collingwood or Carlton or hawks. A powerhouse club with lots of money.

2. North Melbournes recruiting and drafting since 2009 has been terrible. Again... North dont have a lot of money to get elite coaches and scouts. If they did, they would of won another flag from 2000 onwards.

Melbourne: Well they made a grand final in 2000. Missed out on finals in 2001, made finals in 2002. Missed out on finals in 2003, Made finals in 2004-6. Missed out on finals in 2007 and then Sacked Neale Daniher. They had the rebuild. Demons had Dean Bailey as coach from 2008 to 2011. Dean Bailey tried to build up the demons side. He put all his eggs in one basket and tried to get the demons to finals in 2011, he didnt and was sacked. He claimed he did what was best for the demons, in a way he indirectly said the demons tanked in his early years at the demons.

Demons didnt play one final from 2007-2017. They made finals in 2018 under Simon Goodwin. They eventually won a flag in 2021 under Simon Goodwin. Yeah they won the 2021 grand final out side the MCG, in WA to be exact but it was a long drought going back to 1964.

Demons lack of success from 2001-2017 was basically, they fielded some good sides but not a top side to win. Their 2007-17 period was tough, Similar to Brisbanes dire 2010-18 period. But both teams eventually got a flag in the end after a long period of no finals.

Essendon: They won a flag in 2000. Then made another grand final in 2001. They were still good. won elim finals vs West coast in 2002, Dockers in 2003 and Demons in 2004. They have not won a final since beating the demons in 2004. They have made a fair bit of elim finals Since 2004 but sadly not won one.

Essendon have suffered a similar fate to Carlton. Both have won 16 flags each. Both have big supporter bases and lots of money. But sadly wasted money on the wrong players and staff members.


Western Bulldogs: Made a fair few prelim finals since 1990: 1992, 1997, 1998, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2016, 2021. The Dogs have Been punching above their weight Since 2000. They made prelim finals for 3 years in a row from 2008 to 2010. Dogs were one of the top sides but they were never the best side in the comp in that period. Saints, cats and other clubs were just better than the dogs in that period..

Dogs did win a flag in 2016. Mind you they finished 7th a drought going back to 1954. They were not the best side but were the best performing side in september. They had a home ground advantage vs the Swans in that Grand final.

Dogs Made another grand final in 2021 outside the top 4. But they got smashed by the demons after half time.

Saint Kilda: Like the dogs and North Melbourne, they are a docklands Tenant but not a consistent victorian power house. Saying that, The saints had a few chances for a flag. Saints have had their fair share of finals since 2000. Yeah they made a grand final in 1997 and finals again in 1998. But had to rebuild from 1999 to 2003. Made finals in 2004-6. They had chances to make a grand final in 2004 and 2005.


in 2004, The saints narrowly lost to Port in 2004 by 6 points. In 2005, they lead by 2 or 3 goals vs the swans at 3 quater time but lost. The saints sacked Grant Thomas at the end of 2006. Ross Lyon is brought in. He was saints coach from 2007 to 2011. Saints had made grand finals in 2009 and 2010. But fell short in both those years. They could of won one or possibly both but didnt. they made finals in 2011, didnt make finals from 2012 to 2019. Made finals in 2020, missed out in 2021 and 2022, made an elim final in 2023 and missed out on finals in 2024.


The weird thing about the saints is, they could of won a flag between 2004-2010. Had the saints won the premiership in etheir 2004 or 2005, then I dont think Ross Lyon would be coaching the saints in 2007.

Richmond: They have had their fair share of tough times. From 1983-2012. they only made finals in 2 of those 30 years. That is 1995 and 2001. But talking about 2001 onwards. They made finals in 2001, didnt play finals again until 2013.

Richmond made finals in 2013-5. Missed out on finals in 2016. They then had that 2017 to 2020 run. They won a flag in 2017, made a prelim in 2018 , won flags in 2019 and 2020. Yes the 2020 grand final vs Geelong was in Queensland. It as a "Neutral" grand final because both sides had no home ground advantage. Same with the 2024 grand final. Tigers missed out on finals in 2021, made finals again in 2022 but missed out of finals in 2023 and 2024.

Richmond had their struggles but they did some Important thing at the end of 2009 in Getting Brendon Gale as CEO, Hardwick as coach and Dusty martin in the 2009 draft.

I dont personally hate Richmond or their (Bigfooty) fans. But no one complained when Richmond were horrible from 1983 to 2012. But when they won 3 flags in 2017, 2019 and 2020, teams and posters cry foul.


At the end of the day.... All those teams struggled due to a combination of things. Its down to a few reasons... Its either over estimation of the playing squad, Bad Recruiting/ trading, bad umpiring decisions, bad coaching, bad development, club is poorly run, club is unlucky or a mixture of a lot of things.


We Talk about fairness and eveness and Equalization....

Doppleganger, Your magpies have won the 1990, 2010 and 2023 flags. Had your team added and won the 2002, 2003 and 2011 flags on the list, would you really be moaning? thats 6 flags Since 1990 or 5 flags won since 2000.

 

[Freomaniac]

The whole thing seems moot when The AFL literally stole Gaz Jnr from geelong, a Vic team to prop them up, possibly costing geelong more flags. Was an unheard of ,off the books offer, definately not Vic Bias. And yeah they will probably do it again for Tassie.

Funny that......

AFL didnt steal Gary Ablett Jnr from Geelong to Prop them up at the end of 2010. Gary Ablett was offered 1.5 million a year for 5 seasons. Mind you the suns needed a few experienced players to fill their salary cap.

Also the cats won a flag in 2011.

Buddy franklin was a free agent at the end of 2013. Most of us Predicted Buddy franklin to take the GWS offer which was like 2 million a year for 5 or 6 years. Not bad. But the Sydney Swans offered 10 million over 9 seasons or 1.1 million a year.

I thought it was 9 million over 8 seasons at $1,125,000 a year.

Hawks still won a flag in 2014 and 2015.

Would of been interesting if Buddy franklin went to GWS for 5 or 6 seasons from 2014 until 2018 or 2019. GWS might of won a flag.

 

[Freomaniac]

Interesting as zero of my friends and family wanted Geelong to win v Brisbane, so Nova not really representative of anything.

Well Victorian fans such as Magpies fans like doppleganger are not crying out Vic Bias. They are crying out NorthBias (biased towards NSW and Queensland clubs) might be the trend now.

 

[doppleganger]

So you say NorthBias or Northen Bias is real eh?

AFL have a strategic desire to grow the game and win over NSW and QLD.

The best way to do that is ensure the teams are strong and consistently winning and going deep in September.

So The WA and SA clubs are the sloppy 3rds in The AFL bedroom?

That is just the WA wowser position.

So According to you and the AFL, This is the rankings on which sides the AFL treats well...

1. North Bias: So Queensland (Brisbane and Gold Coast) and NSW clubs (Sydney and GWS).

2. Vic Bias (the 10 victorian) clubs

3. The WA and SA bias.

Mind you I think the AFL have seen the Toxic Bay 13 poo threads between the SA clubs and have tried everything to prevent the SA clubs in winning a flag.

I am curious on how Tassie will be in this ranking.

They are your rankings.

Anybody who groups all 10 VIC clubs as one entity gives themselves away as

If you disagree Dopple ganger, please rank in your View which group of sides the AFL want to see become successful. I am alway curious with your thoughts.

It is commercially driven

The AFL want to win over NSW and QLD as that will bring in more revenue.

Syd, Bris, GWS and GC are the clubs the league wants to be successful.

The lowest on the list are obviously the small Melbourne based clubs.

 

[Freomaniac]

They are your rankings.

Anybody who groups all 10 VIC clubs as one entity gives themselves away as

So If you are running the AFL, What would be your order in prefered teams for success?

In my opinion, this is what I think..... buy specifically naming groups of clubs.

1. Northern sides of the Queensland (Brisbane and Gold Coast) and NSW (Sydney and GWS) clubs.

2. Teams that play home games in the MCG (Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Hawthorn, Richmond and Melbourne)

3. Geelong

4. Teams that play home games at docklands (Saints, Dogs and Kangaroos)

5. WA Clubs.

6. SA clubs.

 

[Freomaniac]

AFL have a strategic desire to grow the game and win over NSW and QLD.

The best way to do that is ensure the teams are strong and consistently winning and going deep in September.

This is true....

The AFL wont have Issues having gold coast and GWS filling out their 25,000 seat stadiums.

I remember Brisbanes 1999 to 2004 finals run. When the Brisbane side won the 2001 flag, they packed out the gabba in 2002 and 2003 and 2004. Gabba held only 37,500 seats.

Go look at how dire Brisbane was from 2014 to 2018 when they were bottom 4 for 5 seasons in a row. Getting 15,000 at the 40,000 seat gabba was a terrible look, especially for a night game.

 

[doppleganger]

Ok.... this reply deserves its own spot.... Mainly because you brought up the Victorian clubs.

The thread is a moronic whinge about Vic Bias...

But you listed 7 Specific Victorian clubs and we are gonna go through all of them.... this is gonna be a long post.

The 3 clubs not included with the 7 Melbourne clubs.

1 Geelong - they aren't from Melbourne, they have their own advantages.

2 Hawthorn - they have Tassie as their secondary base, they play just as many games outside of Melbourne as the SA teams do.

3 Collingwood - the big Melbourne club who plays at the G who does get a good run every year primarily because Eddie set us up so well commercially.

But yet you still have the "VICBias" morons who group StK, WB, Melb etc. with Geelong and Collingwood

 

[Freomaniac]

It is commercially driven

The AFL want to win over NSW and QLD as that will bring in more revenue.

Syd, Bris, GWS and GC are the clubs the league wants to be successful.

The lowest on the list are obviously the small Melbourne based clubs.

So..... you Think The small Melboune based clubs are the lowest on the list?

The AFL would rather have one of the Saints or North Melbourne win a flag over Port or Crows or Dockers or eagles.

 

[Freomaniac]

The thread is a moronic whinge about Vic Bias...

Its Not Vic Bias anymore. Its North Bias, you created it.

The thread is a moronic whinge about Vic Bias...

The 3 clubs not included with the 7 Melbourne clubs.

1 Geelong - they aren't from Melbourne, they have their own advantages.

2 Hawthorn - they have Tassie as their secondary base, they play just as many games outside of Melbourne as the SA teams do.

3 Collingwood - the big Melbourne club who plays at the G who does get a good run every year primarily because Eddie set us up so well commercially.

But yet you still have the "VICBias" morons who group StK, WB, Melb etc. with Geelong and Collingwood

Fair enough on this post.

AFL want Geelong to fill out their home ground reagardless if they are in Melbourne or not.

Hawthorn does play home games at Tassie. But will they play home games at Tassie when the Tasmanian state as a team in the AFL? North Melbourne play home games in Tassie for Fiancial reasons too.

Collingwood plays home games at the MCG and the occasional home game at Docklands.


Again..... you think the SA and WA Clubs get "better" treatment compared to the Dockland tenants?

 

[Freomaniac]

Lol. Twaddle. Only 1 year since the Royal Commission has the top 4 been dominated by non Vic sides, 3 of the top 4 in 2015 were Non Victorian clubs, and guess what, the MCG Tennant ended up winning the Premiership.

When it comes to the AFL that which team wants to succeed in order....

In my opinion, this is what I think..... by specifically naming groups of clubs.

1. Northern sides of the Queensland (Brisbane and Gold Coast) and NSW (Sydney and GWS) clubs.

2. Teams that play home games in the MCG (Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Hawthorn, Richmond and Melbourne)

3. Geelong

4. Teams that play home games at docklands (Saints, Dogs and Kangaroos)

5. WA Clubs.

6. SA clubs.

 

[doppleganger]

This is true....

The AFL wont have Issues having gold coast and GWS filling out their 25,000 seat stadiums.

I remember Brisbanes 1999 to 2004 finals run. When the Brisbane side won the 2001 flag, they packed out the gabba in 2002 and 2003 and 2004. Gabba held only 37,500 seats.

Go look at how dire Brisbane was from 2014 to 2018 when they were bottom 4 for 5 seasons in a row. Getting 15,000 at the 40,000 seat gabba was a terrible look, especially for a night game.

If you think 15k in a 40k seater is a bad look...go watch some Melbourne, Hawthorn or Richmond games from early 2000s when they get 15-20k at the G.

People forget how dire Richmond has been for the majority of the 21st century, they used to sell home games to QLD (playing home games in QLD against the QLD teams) for fecks sake.

 

[doppleganger]

So..... you Think The small Melboune based clubs are the lowest on the list?

Yes.

The AFL would rather have one of the Saints or North Melbourne win a flag over Port or Crows or Dockers or eagles.

Why?

 

[Freomaniac]

If you think 15k in a 40k seater is a bad look...go watch some Melbourne, Hawthorn or Richmond games from early 2000s when they get 15-20k at the G.

People forget how dire Richmond has been for the majority of the 21st century, they used to sell home games to QLD (playing home games in QLD against the QLD teams) for fecks sake.

So what? Look at the dockers back in 2001 when they went 0-17 and ended up 2 and 20?

Struggle to get 15,000 in some games.

Richmond were dire on field for most of 2000-2016. They had drawn massive crowds at the MCG from 2000 to 2016 before that 2017 flag.

Demons were never the biggest vic club after 1964. the Bandwagon fans left as they didnt make finals from 1965 to 1986.


Hawks? well they had a massive band wagon base too. They dropped off after the 1991 flag and nearly merged in 1996.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yes.

Why?

I dont think The Docklands tenants are the lowest on the list. If you wanna know why, Just look at the 2016 AFL grand final. Most Neutrals wanted the Bulldogs to win over the Swans.

Also...

Given the choice and I want your honest opinion... If its a North Melbourne vs Adelaide grand final, who would you want to see win?

 

[doppleganger]

Its Not Vic Bias anymore. Its North Bias, you created it.

The WA whinging and SA sooking really should be directed at the teams who get the leg up from the AFL.

Not sure how anybody can think the AFL is looking after StK, North, Melbourne or WBulldogs?

AFL want Geelong to fill out their home ground reagardless if they are in Melbourne or not.

Geelong's advantage is that the VIC Govt built them a new stadium, so they get a much better stadium deal than ALL Melbourne based teams.

They also have the geographical benefit from the one team, one town (well really entire surf coast) which is attractive to many players from that area.

Hawthorn does play home games at Tassie. But will they play home games at Tassie when the Tasmanian state as a team in the AFL? North Melbourne play home games in Tassie for Fiancial reasons too.

Hawthorn properly embraced Tassie, North never really did. It provided them a unique advantage...despite travelling and playing away from Melbourne 10 times per season.

Once Tassie are introduced, they may find themselves dudded back at Marvel.

Collingwood plays home games at the MCG and the occasional home game at Docklands.

Yep, Eddie getting us the good commercial deal that locked in 14 MCG home games. It was a brilliant move.

Back in the 2000s, Richmond had some years where they only had 9 MCG games...the good old VICBias coming through again.

Again..... you think the SA and WA Clubs get "better" treatment compared to the Dockland tenants?

Yes.

Adelaide and Port both play 13 games at AO, only the Saints get similar volume of games at Marvel.

Adelaide and Port both play "home" finals at AO, no Marvel tenant gets "home" finals at Marvel.

Adelaide and Port both play 10 games outside of Adelaide, in 2024 North played 11 games outside of Melbourne.

Thur/Fri night games - Adelaide had 7 and Port had 6, WB had 6, StK had 4, North just 1

How are Marvel clubs getting better treatment?