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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?
- Thread starter VineyIsLORD
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Lethality
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- #3,705
Your post was in response to a discussion on taking the law into your own hands. Assuming your analogy was remotely accurate, that would be what you were referring to.
To be fair, if you want to use a wildly misleading and deliberately inflammatory bumper-sticker message to represent a complex and nuanced issue, you should expect to be immediately dismissed and - even worse - find that you've galvanised people against your position even more.
So many significant movements shoot themselves in the foot like this. #believeallwomen #acab #defundthepolice etc. All with something significant to say, but communicate it in the absolute worst possible way. If I was conspiratorial, I would assume bad actors have subverted these campaigns from the beginning!
Chief
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- #3,707
#lockherup seemed to work very well.
Was that a complex issue being misrepresented by an obtuse hashtag? Or was it the rallying cry of some rednecks frothing at the mouth for a change that they deserved?
Gralin
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- #3,709
ACAB is over 100 years old, it's not wildly misleading it is deliberately inflammatory, if you think we need to be polite you're just saying that being nice is more important than being on the right side of an issue
oh those Nazi's are so polite, they can't be that bad....
I mean the co opting of the language of the oppressed to subvert their message and campaigns isn't anything new
the current obsession with being polite to people that are trying to kill you is a great little example of how support and ally ship is always conditional though
This has got to be one of the most inappropriately-quoted (and poorly conceived) cartoons.
Popper never advocated suppressing those who have views that are seen as intolerant. He explicitly said that it would be unwise to do so, and that intolerant speech should first be kept in check by rational argument. Popper's claim was that we should be prepared to treat those who preach an intolerance that incites some form of persecution as criminal. Like we do right now...
ACAB could be as old as time itself but the overwhelming majority of people have no idea what its history is (and neither do many of its proponents in my experience) - which reinforces exactly what I said about shithouse messaging strategies being counter-productive.
Of course allyship is conditional. If your ally start doing some crazy shit, you don't honour it.
Regardless, the issue with ACAB and the other examples I gave has little to nothing to do with being polite. It's about accurately communicating a message. Without knowing the history, the message 'All Cops Are Bastards' communicates one thing - "I'm a whiny dickhead." (Individual interpretations may vary. Batteries sold separately.)
Chief
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- #3,712
Well, yes.
Did it set people against the MAGA foamers? Yes.
So it fails on the criteria you are setting anyway. But it worked. Same as "build the wall".
Is ACAB a ralying cry for people who need change? I don't think it's a big one but yes. Same as Black Lives Matter, which was much more succesful.
I mean, if you're going to trash the very idea of taglines and catch-cries, talk to the entire marketing and PR industry and explain to them how they are all wrong.
#spendlessoncopsandmoreonsocialservicesandmentalhealth doesn't have the same ring to it.
No, it was not a complex issue in the same sense as police reform and systemic injustice for female victims of assault. Not even close.
It certainly did set people against the MAGA foamers. That's what I am saying - shit, inflammatory hashtag = further polarising the people.
Could certainly argue ACAB is more about the in-group solidarity than trying to convince others to be aware of an issue. Certainly works a lot better that way. But again, if your catch-cry puts the neutral or unknowing bystander off 9/10 times, it's not an effective recruitment tool.
I'm not trashing the idea of taglines at all. Not sure where I said anything to suggest as much.
And if you can come up with such an impactful hashtag, I am sure it's possible to come up with an accurate one too. #ReformPolice. There. That was easy.
I think you give them too much credit if you're saying a notable amount of that crowd actually cared about the infosec...
Gralin
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- #3,716
ACAB is very clear, as is defund the police, something else you took issue with
the reality is that people will find anything they can to attack in a message they don't like or agree with
yes of course it is, but if your line in the sand is they aren't polite enough you were never really an ally on the issue at all
nah man its about controlling how people try and make change happen, and its generally done by people that don't want the change to happen
The message behind ACAB is absolutely not clear to people who don't know. You're deluded if you think otherwise.
As for the rest, I don't really agree or disagree with any of that strongly, but it would be interesting to think about your last two responses and how they reconcile with each other.
Gralin
Super Moderator
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- #3,718
I didn't bring ACAB into this thread to begin with.
It's not that ACAB isn't clear, it's very clear, it's that people don't want to believe it's true.
Copaganda is a massive issue, they've been waging a PR war for decades with the help of media and Hollywood and people have this idea that the purpose of cops is to protect and server, that they are the good guys.
They run out the just a few bad apples defense like they do with racism because ultimately it's easier for them to do that than think about what the alternative means
I'm not deluded at all, but thanks for acting like ACAB is the problem, its a description of the problem.
As to my last two responses
If you need people being oppressed to be polite for you to help them, then their oppression doesn't really bother you does it.
If your response to someone who is angry about an injustice is to tell them off for being angry are you really bothered by the injustice?
We see it all the time. The good victim narrative. The idea that people who have a right to be angry can't show that anger or they are suddenly not deserving of support.
Who does peaceful protest benefit? Not the oppressed, the oppressor.
Do you think peacefully protesting Nazi's is going to get them to stop?
Do you think debating them politely is going to change their hearts and minds?
Will please save you if they get in power?
Gethelred
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I can quite keenly remember two things from my childhood concerning police.
One: my mother, who was terrified of losing me and my siblings, got us to remember our landline phone number, address and to seek out police if we were ever lost. Good advice, even for poor people in Australia.
Two: at my primary school - once my family had moved to the Peninsula, into quite a wealthy area even if my family weren't that at all - the local constabulary used to have a session once a week with a local police officer. He'd been doing it for years, was a lovely fellow; he also collected all of our fingerprints, made sure to counter the mythic status of a figure like Ned Kelly with the 'copkiller' badge, and inculcated into the classroom a specific set of attitudes towards authority and policing.
I hadn't heard of ACAB until very, very recently, even if I'd studied criminology at university level (albeit, round 10 years or so ago). I'm sympathetic to the desire to develop more community policing models, less retributive and more restorative models, but I also question the degree to which it was necessary for a police officer to walk into a Grade 6 classroom and collect fingerprints. Yes, it might've (probably) been a joke, but even as a joke it's in poor taste; you're using fear of the law to compell future behaviour; if it isn't a joke that police station and any database has my fingerprints, before I can even be charged, before I've even considered offending.
And I'm left with the embedded respect for the police those interactions were supposed to inculcate.
So, it's not an uncomplicated area.
One: my mother, who was terrified of losing me and my siblings, got us to remember our landline phone number, address and to seek out police if we were ever lost. Good advice, even for poor people in Australia.
Two: at my primary school - once my family had moved to the Peninsula, into quite a wealthy area even if my family weren't that at all - the local constabulary used to have a session once a week with a local police officer. He'd been doing it for years, was a lovely fellow; he also collected all of our fingerprints, made sure to counter the mythic status of a figure like Ned Kelly with the 'copkiller' badge, and inculcated into the classroom a specific set of attitudes towards authority and policing.
I hadn't heard of ACAB until very, very recently, even if I'd studied criminology at university level (albeit, round 10 years or so ago). I'm sympathetic to the desire to develop more community policing models, less retributive and more restorative models, but I also question the degree to which it was necessary for a police officer to walk into a Grade 6 classroom and collect fingerprints. Yes, it might've (probably) been a joke, but even as a joke it's in poor taste; you're using fear of the law to compell future behaviour; if it isn't a joke that police station and any database has my fingerprints, before I can even be charged, before I've even considered offending.
And I'm left with the embedded respect for the police those interactions were supposed to inculcate.
So, it's not an uncomplicated area.
ExcitementMachine
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Oh **** me,
I can see most police officers are knobs and I've had some bad experiences with them courtesy of fines etc - but when shit hits the fan, and shit hits the fan out there - you need cops to step in when no one else will.
There are reasons why people want to get to this nation. One of those is the rule of law.
It can get better - but there's a bad smell in this thread whereby people are too eager to bag out everything about the society/country we live in.
Look there's a lot of shit things about this country but some posters are delusional.
I can see most police officers are knobs and I've had some bad experiences with them courtesy of fines etc - but when shit hits the fan, and shit hits the fan out there - you need cops to step in when no one else will.
There are reasons why people want to get to this nation. One of those is the rule of law.
It can get better - but there's a bad smell in this thread whereby people are too eager to bag out everything about the society/country we live in.
Look there's a lot of shit things about this country but some posters are delusional.
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ExcitementMachine
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I've come around to the conclusion that you're a dangerous/unhinged person.
