Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

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the_interloper said:
I believe it’s not for you, but I think there is a “look at me” aspect for a lot of protestors, making sure people know they’re against something as opposed to actually trying to effect something.

This goes double for the slacktivists who wouldn’t even go to a protest and just post about stuff on social media.
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A little earlier, a post of a nazi belting a comedian at one of their shows was posted because of a joke (made in poor taste) on Twitter. I question how safe your slacktivists are in an age where doxing and stalking has never been easier.

I also would question the degree to which you can readily assess someone's input into or sincerity towards any given cause from the other side of the internet, Interloper. You don't see their tax returns to know they don't give to charity; you don't see their voting patterns to know whether their rhetoric matches their actions; you don't know they attend what protests they can or the degree to which they care or don't.

Is this whole thing boiling down to you having absorbed the notion of virtue signalling uncritically, despite its meaninglessness?
 
Gethelred said:
A little earlier, a post of a nazi belting a comedian at one of their shows was posted because of a joke (made in poor taste) on Twitter. I question how safe your slacktivists are in an age where doxing and stalking has never been easier.

I also would question the degree to which you can readily assess someone's input into or sincerity towards any given cause from the other side of the internet, Interloper. You don't see their tax returns to know they don't give to charity; you don't see their voting patterns to know whether their rhetoric matches their actions; you don't know they attend what protests they can or the degree to which they care or don't.

Is this whole thing boiling down to you having absorbed the notion of virtue signalling uncritically, despite its meaninglessness?
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Eh, maybe social media has made me question the seemingly virtuous intentions of a lot of people.

Also the blind following of an ideology too, I mean there are many issues that you don’t even need to ask people what their view is if they swing either left or right.
 
Gethelred said:
That's the point: they're only overt when there's a critical mass of them.

Take Posie Parker's antitrans rallies. She had no issue with there being nazis at her events; they can be overt, because there's no danger to them of being kicked out from the movement. They get to market and recruit as they like.

Parker's position on their presence varies based on who she's talking to; she'll condemn them to keep her feminist support, but be perfectly okay with their presence when the chips are down.

This is what they do to social movements they're a part of: they infiltrate, their methods earn those groups power and position because that's how fascism operates, and that movement gets tilted away from their initial cause and into specifically nazi goals.

I'm not asking you to punch someone you suspect of being a nazi. I'm asking you to shun and deride those whose mask comes off.

This feels like the conversation I had with ExcitementMachine a year or so ago.

The problem with Nazis is not just that they're fascists or extremists or fundamentalists, although some of them would be all of those things. The problem is that nazis - as in, the actual German version under Adolf Hitler - did everything you apportion blame towards in each of the groups you would despise. It's not just the Holocaust - which is the most systematic, cold blooded genocide in history - that made them evil.

They used eugenics at a society wide level, up to and including castrating - chemically and physically - those with undesirable traits.
They employed child soldiers, and encouraged children to spy on their parents and vice versa.
Their despite against Jews was borne in no small part from Lutheran antisemitism.
They purged their own movement of those they considered undesirable once their political use had been expended.

These are the people neo-nazis seek to emulate; this specific kind of societal infiltration and manipulation that results in them achieving power.

To compare them to other groups as 'just as bad' ignores the fact that whatever that group does, the Nazis probably did it first. Female circumcision? Reducing women to chattel or breeding stock?

I get that you don't want to punch a Nazi, evolved. But if it's a choice between punching a Nazi or seeing the social movements you'd support being suborned to their ends?

Do you think they'd let you get away unscathed?
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I understand that Nazism is worse than other political groups and ideals I oppose, though I don't see it as the same level of threat because of their lack of numbers.

Of course they wouldn't let me get away unscathed. At the same time, I wouldn't get away unscathed in many Islamic countries.

The infiltration and acceptance of Nazis in anti-trans groups is cause for concern, and I agree with you they should be kicked out. As someone who doesn't generally involve myself in protests of any kind, I'm in no position to do much about that.

I think it's great if you or others are actioning against Nazis in practical ways, but the punching rhetoric isn't particularly helpful.
 

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evolved2 said:
I understand that Nazism is worse than other political groups and ideals I oppose, though I don't see it as the same level of threat because of their lack of numbers.

Of course they wouldn't let me get away unscathed. At the same time, I wouldn't get away unscathed in many Islamic countries.

The infiltration and acceptance of Nazis in anti-trans groups is cause for concern, and I agree with you they should be kicked out. As someone who doesn't generally involve myself in protests of any kind, I'm in no position to do much about that.

I think it's great if you or others are actioning against Nazis in practical ways, but the punching rhetoric isn't particularly helpful.
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Fascism and Nazism are insidious. They attach themselves to other movements and slowly integrate with them. Then they take over the movement and it becomes a part of their overall reach. All it takes is for a couple of insiders of the movement to make impassioned speeches for the inclusion of right wing groups, and that movement is done.

As for the punching rhetoric, it's very helpful. Look at Richard Spencer, the pepe meme guy who got punched in the head and became a meme himself. Since he got punched in the head, he hasn't been a massive force for the right wing because he ran off and sooked.

And if you're a Jew, you would get away unscathed in Middle Eastern Islamic countries. They allowed the Jews back into Jerusalem after they'd been banned from the city after Jewish Zealots tried to rebel against the Romans. They called Jews and Christians brothers of the book and they were protected.
 
evolved2 said:
The infiltration and acceptance of Nazis in anti-trans groups
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They get into many groups. They create their own groups under the guise of soft patriotism and nationalism and then move people through their "great replacement" stuff, which many people even in here (yes! The SRP!) repeat with a straight face. Then it's family barbecue events and ... bomb making gear found at group leaders houses.

They're not huge right now because they get called out and are sent packing many times.

Stop calling them out, stop thinking they are a potential threat and they come scurrying back out from behind the skirting boards.
 
evolved2 said:
Nazism is rarely socially acceptable in modern Australia. I'd suggest you're more likely to court social disapproval by accepting Nazism.
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I can introduce you to a few blokes that'd change your mind lol
 
Engimal v3 said:
I can introduce you to a few blokes that'd change your mind lol
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giphy.webp
 

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Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

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