Voss in 2013 (aka 'the Voss megathread')

[Quigley]

Voss has been at the Lions for 5 years, yet hasn't developed any game plan at all. McKenna has been just into his 3rd, with a younger list, and you can clearly see a dedicated game plan. Voss has to go I don't give a shit if he was a club legend, he is not head coach. He would make a great development coach.

McKenna has been there for 5 years. The AFL has also gifted them a premiership level group of youngsters and the best player of the current generation. FFS you would have to be a complete noob not to have them being competitive at this stage. You could probably walk in there and they would be winning as many games. I take Voss over McKenna every day of the week.

Voss has had to rebuild at a time when the guts has been ripped out of draft by the AFL. We should be more consistent than we are but we a not far away and whoever is coaching next year whether it is Voss or not will be very grateful to Voss for doing the hard yards in the development of this group.

I disagree with a lot of the decisions Voss has made and his pigheadedness on some players. To think though that getting someone else in is going to be the magic tonic that fixes all our ills is moronic. The players more than the coach souks be copping the flack.

 

[dlanod]

Also bearing in mind that Voss was the GC's preferred choice over McKenna as well.

 

[Panthera]

Voss, during his day as a midfielder, didn't have many ahead of him. With all the ins/outs over the past couple of years, I feel he is trying to make our players perfect instead of simply using players' strengths well and having them work on their weaknesses (ala Ross Lyon @ St.Kilda and now Freo). Most players he has had are 7/10 players, with a sprinkling of superstars. But those 7/10 players complete the task they've been give 95% of the time as they are given tasks that compliment their strengths. Usually it's only 3-4 things they do well, but the sum of those 3-4 things per player = plenty of wins

 

[notliondown]

Impossible to tell but I think Woewodin could bring something different.

The real question could be... What role has Woewodin played in our midfield and clearance issues? As our dedicated midfield coach I have to wonder what level of responsibility falls on his and the other assistant coaches?

I had a feeling this thread would surge to life after Friday night... Its as predictable as it is political. How any credible argument can manage to link a team with 9 of its best players out with the coach is beyond me... And even some of the more educated commentators who actually know where the city of Brisbane is agree.

Fridays game was as helpful in predicting our future given the way we played, as a crystal ball is in predicting lotto numbers. I really hoped we were going to get a glimpse of the future... Instead we saw a group of players buckle under their own expectations... And as hard as it is to watch it's just part of supporting a developing team.

Like I'm sure the players and the club will agree, the sooner that game is put behind us, and the lessons learned from it for the young guys locked in the better.

As pissed as Voss was after the game by all accounts, it'll be done dusted and gone. I'm taking the same view.

 

[luthor]

The major concern I have about Voss is his "win your own ball" mantra.

Seems that everyone has to be able to "win their own ball", whether or not they are suited to the task.

I heard Tom Rockliff interviewed on SEN yesterday and (I think) it was Robbo who asked him if he could state in one succint sentence what Voss' "game plan" was, to which Tommy replied that "winning contested possession" and "run and spread" were the focus.

A bit of a stock answer, I suppose but a bit of a worry nonetheless.

Hasn't the thinking about "contested possessions" changed in the last season and a half?...and haven't teams like Geelong demonstrated that "contested" possessions and even clearances aren't the be-all and end-all of winning games of AFLfooty?

 

[Bert Man]

Scotty West is supposedly an excellent clearance coach. It could be a pipe dream, but if we want to improve our clearances we should find out if he will make the move up north.

 

[western royboy]

The major concern I have about Voss is his "win your own ball" mantra.

Seems that everyone has to be able to "win their own ball", whether or not they are suited to the task.

I heard Tom Rockliff interviewed on SEN yesterday and (I think) it was Robbo who asked him if he could state in one succint sentence what Voss' "game plan" was, to which Tommy replied that "winning contested possession" and "run and spread" were the focus.

A bit of a stock answer, I suppose but a bit of a worry nonetheless.

Hasn't the thinking about "contested possessions" changed in the last season and a half?...and haven't teams like Geelong demonstrated that "contested" possessions and even clearances aren't the be-all and end-all of winning games of AFLfooty?

Yep the "metrics" keep changing, I think tackles and turnovers are king atm, but it's constantly evolving and you need to stay ahead of the game. Even MM, now realises that the plan he had in his head for Carlton, now has to change. That's been one of the main knocks on Neeld, by the time he got into the chair with MM's plan it was already 3 years old and wouldn't necessarily fit the side he had.

 

[Skoob]

The real question could be... What role has Woewodin played in our midfield and clearance issues? As our dedicated midfield coach I have to wonder what level of responsibility falls on his and the other assistant coaches?
.

Told ya we shoulda got Ratten.

 

[SizeMatters]

Watching the Demons/Hawks games and Bruce McAvaney says the very first job of a coach is to work out who his best 22 are and that Voss hasn't done this in 5 years at the Lions. Fair call?

Agree, he is swapping and changing willy-nilly far too often. Cornelius/Lisle/Karnezis/Green are great examples of Voss and co. dropping them after 1 poor game, with the funny thing being that they play forward roles... FFS going to be hard to play a good game up forward if your midfield can't perform. Fix the midfield Lions... We need players that are willing to win contested possessions and clearances to allow Hanley and co on the outside to work their magic.

 

[dlanod]

Voss, during his day as a midfielder, didn't have many ahead of him. With all the ins/outs over the past couple of years, I feel he is trying to make our players perfect instead of simply using players' strengths well and having them work on their weaknesses (ala Ross Lyon @ St.Kilda and now Freo). Most players he has had are 7/10 players, with a sprinkling of superstars. But those 7/10 players complete the task they've been give 95% of the time as they are given tasks that compliment their strengths. Usually it's only 3-4 things they do well, but the sum of those 3-4 things per player = plenty of wins

This is one of my main concerns. Do we have the players able to execute Voss's game plan? Are we able to develop the players we currently have with the abilities able to execute Voss's game plan? Or are we trying to hard to push square pegs into round holes? Should then we obtain other players? Or should Voss's game plan should be re-evaluated?

 

[Skoob]

Agree, he is swapping and changing willy-nilly far too often. Cornelius/Lisle/Karnezis/Green are great examples of Voss and co. dropping them after 1 poor game, with the funny thing being that they play forward roles... FFS going to be hard to play a good game up forward if your midfield can't perform. Fix the midfield Lions... We need players that are willing to win contested possessions and clearances to allow Hanley and co on the outside to work their magic.

So on one hand we have "willy-nilly" and on the other we need more change in the midfield.
Too much change, not enough, I can't keep up.
(Nice use of "WILLY-NILLY" BTW. You don't see that much anymore).

 

[SizeMatters]

This is one of my main concerns. Do we have the players able to execute Voss's game plan? Are we able to develop the players we currently have with the abilities able to execute Voss's game plan? Or are we trying to hard to push square pegs into round holes? Should then we obtain other players? Or should Voss's game plan should be re-evaluated?

We have no problems getting the ball rebounding from defence, but the main concern for mine is that our gameplan at this stage leaves us exposed to scoring from turnovers. We do not have the cattle to execute a free flowing corridor based game plan at this stage. We are probably one of the worst teams for turnovers and having the ball in the corridor allows opposition to score against us at ease. It's the first kick out of defence and the kick into forward 50 that is killing us at the moment. The defensive side of the Lions are quite poor IMO especially when the opposition get on a spread we just can't stop them.

 

[Rawhead]

You've got a lot of faith in getting a coach that's going to be better than one with five years experience.

We could easily end up with a Neeld or Ratten or Tony Shaw.

What's Leppitsch doing these days?

Just to be clear, Loved Voss as a player, love the lions, hate watching players not playing for each other. If there's no assistant coach currently without the credentials (and I would find that surprising, though not impossible) then... well what choice do we have. But due diligence should demand such an assessment of options is done.

I'm not even looking for wins, I just want to see shepherding off the ball and players focused on their team mates, not themselves. I would also like a coach that loses their nana when required. Players feared Mathews, Barassi, Roos, Malthouse as much as they respected them. Being Mr nice guy doesn't seem to get results aka Voss, Ratten, Neeld.

 

[dlanod]

Leppitsch probably is the next cab off the rank. My usual rule of thumb is to remember who was touted for openings in the previous year's coaching carousel, and Leppitsch is about the only one who didn't get an opening last year. He's currently the defensive coach for Richmond, but defense isn't really our issue.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The NIRS radio boys who are pretty well connected to Brisbane seemed to insinuate after the game that Leppitsch isn't the man for the job.

 

[Balony_pony16]

The major concern I have about Voss is his "win your own ball" mantra.

Seems that everyone has to be able to "win their own ball", whether or not they are suited to the task.

I heard Tom Rockliff interviewed on SEN yesterday and (I think) it was Robbo who asked him if he could state in one succint sentence what Voss' "game plan" was, to which Tommy replied that "winning contested possession" and "run and spread" were the focus.

A bit of a stock answer, I suppose but a bit of a worry nonetheless.

Hasn't the thinking about "contested possessions" changed in the last season and a half?...and haven't teams like Geelong demonstrated that "contested" possessions and even clearances aren't the be-all and end-all of winning games of AFLfooty?

interesting point...On channel 7's gameday one of the guess's (luke Ball?) in a separate convo mentioned how the 1v1 "contested Ball" is not as important in todays game

 

[Balony_pony16]

Scotty West is supposedly an excellent clearance coach. It could be a pipe dream, but if we want to improve our clearances we should find out if he will make the move up north.

I think Blacky will step straight into a role next year

 

[western royboy]

The NIRS radio boys who are pretty well connected to Brisbane seemed to insinuate after the game that Leppitsch isn't the man for the job.

IF, we have to make a change, it has to be an outsider - No ifs, buts or maybes.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

I don't care what your game plan is, if you have only three players with 20+ possessions and five with less than 10, you won't win any game of footy, because you aren't getting the ball often enough. Contested possessions, clearances, spread, run, pressure become largely irrelevant. Perhaps we don't have enough of the type of player who can win possession when the heat is on, or at all. The position was only marginally better when we had Rich and Rockliff available. It is difficult to know whether another coach would improve that part of our game. But one aspect that to me is related to the coach is our inability to be competitive from the first bounce. I am convinced that this is a coach's responsibility, both for Voss and his assistants.

 

[13Beast]

IF, we have to make a change, it has to be an outsider - No ifs, buts or maybes.

I absolutely agree

 

[POBT]

interesting point...On channel 7's gameday one of the guess's (luke Ball?) in a separate convo mentioned how the 1v1 "contested Ball" is not as important in todays game

I agree that it is no longer the only pathway to success. But that's doesn't mean that you can always afford to get slaughtered at the contest. If you do, you need to do something pretty special elsewhere to make up for it. Geelong do it by winning the footy back elsewhere and then using exceptional run and decision making. Other clubs apply such pressure with their tackling that it doesn't matter if they don't win enough contests. Still other clubs have brilliant structures in place that the opposition can't move the footy around once they win it.

If you lose the contested footy, you have to find another way to get the footy back and/or stop the opposition. We managed to find a way against Essendon with outstanding defensive pressure and crisp, efficient movement of the footy. We didn't manage it against Collingwood.

Life is a lot easier if you win the footy more than your opponents. Sure, it is no longer the key to success but it is still pretty bloody important, particularly if the other parts of your game aren't that crash hot.

 

[theteamtobeat]

Why do you think he doesn't want to coach?

Someone commented on the above post that Bomber Thompson does not want to coach.

 

[POBT]

As a gross simplification, there are 3 basic components to footy IMO:

1. How you win the footy
2. How you move the footy
3. How you stop the opposition

To give us a rank between 1-10, I would say that our ball movement is somewhere between 2/10 and 7/10 at any given time. We can be good and but we can regularly be awful.

Although we've had bad patches, our ability to stop the opposition tends to be a little bit more consistent. I would say it is between 3/10 and 7/10.

But our ball winning is consistently poor. I would say that it is between 1/10 and 5/10. We rarely do better than break even and we are often completely belted.


Edit: forgot the point I was going to make. While our contested footy is poor, we also can't rely on the other components of our game to make up the difference. We might have 7/10 games in the other areas but that's not consistent. We're just as good a chance at having 2/10 games in those areas which then leads to a flogging.

If we do better in the contested footy stakes, we reduce the gap between our best and worst performances IMO.

 

[theteamtobeat]

How about we get Mark Neeld as an assisstant coach when he gets the sack.

 

[POBT]

How about we get Mark Neeld as an assisstant coach when he gets the sack.

I think we need to know who our senior coach will be before we start talking about hiring assistants. If by some stroke of fate we get Roos, he probably needs a very different mix of assistants than Voss who would be different again to an untried senior coach.