Waiting to hear from the club about season tickets

[Alfonz]

Ticketek (and I presume Ticketmaster and our memberships) have a clause specifically relating to communicable disease and shutdown ... saying no refunds ... yet they came out last month and said people will get refunds. Refunds might be a matter of goodwill, not a legal requirement. So I would cut the club some slack. It's not a simple situation, especially at this point in time.

I had a bunch of tickets to concerts. One was flat out cancelled and haven't heard anything. The others were all rescheduled, and the press release was very focused on saying to keep your ticket. They offered refunds, but you had to chase it up yourself within a few weeks. Not sure if the refund situation is treated differently for postponement versus cancellation.

 

[Wigarus]

The reason for mentioning that was to position whether you want your membership or be a second tier club for the foreseeable future. If we become a second tier club, expect to be treated like one with fixtures, etc. I'd rather not become a second tier club.

Yeah if we become a second-tier club we might get fixtured in Tasmania every year...

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

I agree. The member has a right to get their money back for their seats, the club has a big interest in holding that money until next year. There is a leverage there.

The club knows it, they should get on the front foot and lock their members and financial security in for the future.

Let them keep the money, 20% off membership loyalty program for the next six years - unless you decide not to continue your membership - or get your money back now.

Do we though? Is there a Force Majeure clause in our memberships?

 

[freodog]

Yeah if we become a second-tier club we might get fixtured in Tasmania every year...

Difference is they’ll be home games and we’ll be playing in green jumpers.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

they are not providing a service. They can't take money for services they didn't provide. end of story.

Legally that may not be the case. I'm not a lawyer, so this is totally a lay-person's perspective but ...

- Any contract can have an explicit clause that absolves the provider from providing their service in the case of some extraordinary event. You would need to research the membership contract to know if that applies. I don't know if it does -- I've never been arsed to find out.

- Under Common Law there is a concept of "frustration" where a contract can be ended (if I think it is technically "discharged") if it is impossible for the contract to be fulfilled and it is nobody's fault that this is the case. So if Government restrictions make attending the footy impossible -- and the club couldn't have forseen that happening when they sold you the membership -- then the contract is "frustrated" and it could terminated with no further obligation on either side. Importantly for people who are paying off their memberships over time, your obligation to continue to pay will also be "discharged" as much as the club's obligation to provide you with a ticket to watch the game. This is a common law thing, not legislation or a contractual clause.

Of course, there are other matters to consider beyond the legal. The tension is between what the club should do to maintain a good relationship with its supporters whilst remaining financially viable.

(Personally I would hate to see the club borrow money from AFL House. I reckon that will have as many strings attached to it as borrowing money from the mafia.)

 

[Taylor]

Do we though? Is there a Force Majeure clause in our memberships?

When the name of the membership includes seats to the games for the purpose of attending I would expect the contract is voided on the inability to provide that contract term, it doesn't entitle the business to keep the money.

That's why I am expecting an offer for the club to effectively be loaned my membership money in exchange for something amounting to an extra year of attending games over a period of time.

Five years for the price of four, or six years for the price of five etc.

I floated the idea of the 25% discount for 5 years because it represents a financial win for all parties over the term. The club secure financial contribution to the club for half a decade (that could be two coaches), the member enters into a payment structure locking the price of their membership in with a discount spreading the loss of the 2020 season across the next five years and the final year rewarding the member with the benefit of an extra year of discount.

$1000 - 2020 membership fee (Freo Owing $1000)
$750 - 2021 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $750)
$750 - 2022 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $500)
$750 - 2023 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $250)
$750 - 2024 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $0)
$750 - 2025 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo paying $250)

2026 - membership returns to the regular fee, which I expect is much higher than the $1000 paid five/six years earlier.

Clause would be included ending the loyalty program immediately if the member fails to pay their membership by the due date and they will be back on the regular program.

I'd also like the cost of the membership band to be revised down if the general purchase of a new membership at that band is cheaper than the $1000 contracted.

I think that's a reasonable win for everyone.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

When the name of the membership includes seats to the games for the purpose of attending I would expect the contract is voided on the inability to provide that contract term, it doesn't entitle the business to keep the money.

That's why I am expecting an offer for the club to effectively be loaned my membership money in exchange for something amounting to an extra year of attending games over a period of time.

Five years for the price of four, or six years for the price of five etc.

I floated the idea of the 25% discount for 5 years because it represents a financial win for all parties over the term. The club secure financial contribution to the club for half a decade (that could be two coaches), the member enters into a payment structure locking the price of their membership in with a discount spreading the loss of the 2020 season across the next five years and the final year rewarding the member with the benefit of an extra year of discount.

$1000 - 2020 membership fee (Freo Owing $1000)
$750 - 2021 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $750)
$750 - 2022 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $500)
$750 - 2023 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $250)
$750 - 2024 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo owing $0)
$750 - 2025 Loyalty membership fee 25% discount (Freo paying $250)

2026 - membership returns to the regular fee, which I expect is much higher than the $1000 paid five/six years earlier.

Clause would be included ending the loyalty program immediately if the member fails to pay their membership by the due date and they will be back on the regular program.

I'd also like the cost of the membership band to be revised down if the general purchase of a new membership at that band is cheaper than the $1000 contracted.

I think that's a reasonable win for everyone.

As I said in another post, I don't think it is that simple legally .

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that even if a contract is "frustrated" because its terms cannot be met for reasons beyond anyone's foreseeable control, then the contract only ends at the point where it is "frustrated".

So if you paid money (like I and many others did) in late 2019 for a 2020 membership. And the 2020 membership can't be used because of government decisions made in March 2020, you don't qualify for a refund because when you paid the contract wasn't "frustrated". You are only released from payments that should have occured _after_ March 2020. So people on a payment plan could legally refuse to pay now because their obligations to pay now have been discharged by what happened when the contract was "frustrated".

I think the legal side of this won't be the key motivator in a decision by the clubs. I believe it is in the best long-term interests of the AFL clubs to provide some level of compensation to members regardless of their legal obligations.

Personally I expect the club to compensate me in some form. I think it is reasonable for them to delay any announcement until after the AFL has said something in late April about the future. That's because the clubs will have to fall into line with whatever the AFL decides, especially if they want a short-term loan from the AFL to see them through.

Like you, I reckon we will end up with a discount on future memberships. That is far more likely than likely than a refund of this year's money especially when the club has said it expects to run out of cash to fund itself in 2020.

 

[Taylor]

As I said in another post, I don't think it is that simple legally .

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that even if a contract is "frustrated" because its terms cannot be met for reasons beyond anyone's foreseeable control, then the contract only ends at the point where it is "frustrated".

So if you paid money (like I and many others did) in late 2019 for a 2020 membership. And the 2020 membership can't be used because of government decisions made in March 2020, you don't qualify for a refund because when you paid the contract wasn't "frustrated". You are only released from payments that should have occured _after_ March 2020. So people on a payment plan could legally refuse to pay now because their obligations to pay now have been discharged by what happened when the contract was "frustrated".

I think the legal side of this won't be the key motivator in a decision by the clubs. I believe it is in the best long-term interests of the AFL clubs to provide some level of compensation to members regardless of their legal obligations.

Personally I expect the club to compensate me in some form. I think it is reasonable for them to delay any announcement until after the AFL has said something in late April about the future. That's because the clubs will have to fall into line with whatever the AFL decides, especially if they want a short-term loan from the AFL to see them through.

Like you, I reckon we will end up with a discount on future memberships. That is far more likely than likely than a refund of this year's money especially when the club has said it expects to run out of cash to fund itself in 2020.

I'd even front some more years at a discount to inject more money in the short term if the deal represented value.

There are lots of options for how the club can move forward

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

I'd even front some more years at a discount to inject more money in the short term if the deal represented value.

There are lots of options for how the club can move forward

Yes. A good reason for having patience (if you can afford it): there may be options available to the club, but they need clarity from head office first.

 

[Geoff]

I don’t have an issue with paying the membership component but not the seat component. I note the non seated membership has been dragged from the clubs web page. If the membership component is say $200, @ 40,000 members equates to $8,000,000. The seating component is non negotiable for mine, I’m paying for the stadium through tax’s **** the double dipping. Beware of pissing off the supporters it might be a trip back to the early 2000,s.

And,

This email from the club? Was it only sent out to the selected ones? No sign of it from my end.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[dominguez]

Assuming there isn't a vaccine this time next year do we start the 2021 season in empty stadiums? And if people are allowed to attend, but there isn't a vaccine, would you choose to attend?

This could easily be a 2 year issue. Even if we are allowed to attend stadiums 12 months from now I am guessing numbers will be well down on 2019 at all sports.

 

[Wizard]

they are not providing a service. They can't take money for services they didn't provide. end of story.

They are a not for profit so yes they actually can.

They can take money but you don't have to choose to give them your money, ask for a refund if you want one, you will get it.

Otherwise wait and see what options appear when the club and AFL have an understanding on how the year will play out.

Exactly. If you have an issue and need the money, make a phone call and request it. They will give a refund, they just wont offer one voluntarily.

 

[Belnakor]

They are a not for profit so yes they actually can.

not for profit doesn't mean you can take money for doing nothing.

 

[Belnakor]

Ticketek (and I presume Ticketmaster and our memberships) have a clause specifically relating to communicable disease and shutdown ... saying no refunds ... yet they came out last month and said people will get refunds. Refunds might be a matter of goodwill, not a legal requirement. So I would cut the club some slack. It's not a simple situation, especially at this point in time.

Saying no refunds is unenforceable. You can't write a contract that supersedes consumer law. Thats why they folded. They didn't do it out of the kindness of their heart lol.

 

[Wizard]

not for profit doesn't mean you can take money for doing nothing.

Membership

Phone (08) 9433 7111 Email membership@fremantlefc.com.au

Sort it out and stop whinging.

 

[kuepper]

not for profit doesn't mean you can take money for doing nothing.

So for clarity you pay for a membership, and a seat at games. You're still a member. You still have a seat at games - albeit, no one knows when (or if?) those games will occur.

Perhaps rather than ranting as noted - contact the club, like many others have. Clearly is causing you hardship, so speak to them and resolve it, they will.

It really isn't that difficult.

 

[poshman]

Membership

Phone (08) 9433 7111 Email membership@fremantlefc.com.au

Sort it out and stop whinging.

Isn’t this a discussion forum? I didn’t think he was whinging. Posters have said there would be no refund he disagreed. Posters said that they are a not for profit therefore didn’t have to refund - he again disagreed.
Where was the rant in that?

he put his initial post up disappointed to not have heard anything and you replied.Using your logic shouldn’t you just call the club to find out and stop whinging?

sounds more like you are using a tactic to win a point rather than engage in conversation.

FYI - I called the club this morning. They don’t know much of anything and are hesitating to say anything about refunds or the future. I asked clear questions and did not get an answer other than wait and see. Which isn’t really acceptable given they have taken money. I asked for a refund and wasn’t given a commitment. Before someone screams about my lack of support - I don’t actually want a refund yet, I was just testing the ‘simple, call and ask for a refund’ line that is being thrown around here.

 

[Belnakor]

So for clarity you pay for a membership, and a seat at games. You're still a member. You still have a seat at games - albeit, no one knows when (or if?) those games will occur.

Perhaps rather than ranting as noted - contact the club, like many others have. Clearly is causing you hardship, so speak to them and resolve it, they will.

It really isn't that difficult.

No hardship for me, the club just needs to clarify people's position. We aren't going to play games with crowds this year.

I had a membership of a gym. They aren't open so they can't charge me a membership. It is actually really ****ing simple.

 

[Belnakor]

FYI - I called the club this morning. They don’t know much of anything and are hesitating to say anything about refunds or the future. I asked clear questions and did not get an answer other than wait and see. Which isn’t really acceptable given they have taken money. I asked for a refund and wasn’t given a commitment. Before someone screams about my lack of support - I don’t actually want a refund yet, I was just testing the ‘simple, call and ask for a refund’ line that is being thrown around here.

Good stuff.

We know the games aren't going to be played with crowds. So why are they hanging onto our money?

They can't change our membership fees from a membership to a donation.

the club won't go under. the AFL will bail them out. AFL meddling? boo hoo. Maybe we need some after the last couple of years. Seems like alot of group think and excuses down at the club lately.

 

[Wizard]

Good stuff.

We know the games aren't going to be played with crowds. So why are they hanging onto our money?

They can't change our membership fees from a membership to a donation.

the club won't go under. the AFL will bail them out. AFL meddling? boo hoo. Maybe we need some after the last couple of years. Seems like alot of group think and excuses down at the club lately.

Given the circumstances i think this is pretty excusable at the moment.

The financial modelling process would be extremely extensive and i'd hazard a guess has / is ongoing in conjunction with that of the AFL. I'd imagine there would also need to be some level of uniformity across the wider industry on how this is handled as well so they would be in constant communication as an "AFL executive" working through various connotations.

 

[Belnakor]

they should be assuming they get $0 from membership. That is not that complicated. Anything they get to keep is donations.

 

[Wizard]

they should be assuming they get $0 from membership. That is not that complicated. Anything they get to keep is donations.

Yes because it is that simple.

We are talking about $20 million roughly, they aren't just going to wipe their hands of it and hand it back.

 

[Lach72]

Yes because it is that simple.

We are talking about $20 million roughly, they aren't just going to wipe their hands of it and hand it back.

http://footyindustry.com/files/2019%20Reports/Fremantle%202019%20Annual%20Report.pdf

If they're banking on losing 18 million from the memberships we're going broke

 

[Taylor]

I think it's more than $18,000,000

$5,700,000 sponsorship cash
$24,830,000 gate and memberships
$1,350,000 merch

I think we should be expecting a $25,000,000 hole.

 

[Wigarus]

Under these circumstances, I really don't see as a club how we can afford to keep Ross on next year. I think we need to cut him loose and save some money getting a rookie senior coach in.