Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hezbollah - Houthis

[Kurve]

I'm not sure the UN can order a ceasfire without the US ordering it (i.e. full Security Council support, no vetoes or abstaining). Regardless, it doesn't change that dropping letters is having little effect, thousands of women and children have been murdered, and the Israeli government chooses to continue murdering more. It's disgusting and will be a stain on Israel for a very long time, like the holocaust is on Germany.

None of the ICJ orders are enforceable but it would have sent a clear message and left Israel with nowhere to go in refusing to comply. I'm just waiting to see if Israel supplies the report the ICJ has asked for.

 

[geoffjennings79]

It's disgusting and will be a stain on Israel for a very long time, like the holocaust is on Germany.

Putting aside the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organisation (which I'm going to yet again acknowledge in spite of the pro-Zionists refusing to acknowledge the same for the actions of the IDF and their bureaucratic masters), I would previously have regarded this as unnecessary hyperbole and extremist rhetoric.

However... given the ongoing 'fish in a barrel' approach of the IDF (yes some portion of 25,000 are Hamas militants, not sure what 1,000s of other powerless non-combatant victims are expected to do to separate themselves physically when there is nowhere to go), indiscriminately killing masses of women and children and journalists (not so indiscriminate), medical personnel, etc as a grotesque collateral 'defence' is I agree a stain on the state of Israel that will, and should be, on the historical record.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I'm not sure the UN can order a ceasefire without the US ordering it (i.e. full Security Council support, no vetoes or abstaining). Regardless, it doesn't change that dropping letters is having little effect, thousands of women and children have been murdered, and the Israeli government chooses to continue murdering more. It's disgusting and will be a stain on Israel for a very long time, like the holocaust is on Germany.

Stain? They are harsh words. I certainly don't view it as such but I looked at some of the graphic images of those burnt to death so I have a different perspective. Life is cause and effect.

The USA committed major atrocities during WW2 and no stain for them

* Atomic bombs when Japan had sought a surrender only condition being The emperor was to get immunity. Not accepted when they gave immunity anyway after killing hundreds of thousands with the bombs. what a disgrace

* USA changed the designation from prisoners of war to disarmed enemy forces during the final stages of WW2 so they wouldn't have to be subject of Geneva convention and feed German prisoners. The result is they believe up to 1M germans starved to death in Eisenhower death camps

By all means be outraged by any unnecessary loss of life but war brings deaths and all we can do is examine behaviour to determine whether a crime occurred. I think Israel have acted conscionably

 

[Bostonian]

That's not the point. Hamas is a criminal organisation. Israel is a sovereign State. They have a duty and legal obligation not to murder innocent people. If they can't drop thousands of bombs on a densely populated region without killing 25,000+ innocent civilians (most of the dead are women and children), they need to do things differently. Send in troops, send in Mossad, door-to-door surgically ID and and detain (or kill) the Hamas criminals. A criminal act against a State does NOT authorise mass-murder of civilians under any law. And then there's murder being morally and ethically reprehensible (to most).

Like I suggested, how do you know which ones are the innocent ones?

You seem to keep implying that the figures you quote are only "innocent people".

Hamas network isn't just fighting aged men. Threats could come from all kinds of background in this conflict with Hamas.

Can you tell me how many Palestinian combatants have died in this conflict?

 

[jason_recliner]

Like I suggested, how do you know which ones are the innocent ones?

You seem to keep implying that the figures you quote are only "innocent people".

Hamas network isn't just fighting aged men. Threats could come from all kinds of background in this conflict with Hamas.

Can you tell me how many Palestinian combatants have died in this conflict?

Of course I don't know the exact figures. The death toll is broken down into men, women and children (post-conflict reviews of reported death tolls from previous conflicts found they are reasonably accurate). Even if you assume that all men killed are Hamas combatants/criminals (seems unlikely to me), most deaths are women and children. It's overwhelmingly unlikely that the majority of women and children killed are members of Hamas, hence it is reasonably certain that in the order of 10,000-20,000 women and children have been killed, and the killings are continuing.

 

[Kurve]

Putting aside the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organisation (which I'm going to yet again acknowledge in spite of the pro-Zionists refusing to acknowledge the same for the actions of the IDF and their bureaucratic masters), I would previously have regarded this as unnecessary hyperbole and extremist rhetoric.

It's more a matter in my thinking, that Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation which is where our democratically elected government has them and it's the correct terminology. Israel is a sovereign state and ally, if most of us would agree they're wreaking more terror on the Gazan people than they've ever experienced before and far more harm if we want to make comparisons to that of October 7.

I see it as a step in the right direction that Biden has started placing sanctions on the settlers. It's a strong message to Israel and I'd like to see it go further, like putting a spotlight right on the Religious Zionist Party and examine them for links to terrorism. I think they might find those links.

 

[Bostonian]

Of course I don't know the exact figures. The death toll is broken down into men, women and children (post-conflict reviews of reported death tolls from previous conflicts found they are reasonably accurate). Even if you assume that all men killed are Hamas combatants/criminals (seems unlikely to me), most deaths are women and children. It's overwhelmingly unlikely that the majority of women and children killed are members of Hamas, hence it is reasonably certain that in the order of 10,000-20,000 women and children have been killed, and the killings are continuing.

So the total of actual innocent people could be as low as 5,000 or so.

Because anyone under 18 is considered children.

We know for a fact that Palestine has a history of using children as part of their military activites.

"According to According to Amnesty International, "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army.", "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army."

This is why I question any figures coming out regarding Palestinian casualties.

 

[HairyO]

The people elected Hamas who ran on an anti corruption platform, over Fatah. No elections from then on but the West Bank doesn't hold elections either, not since 2006. Some I've spoken to which was a few years ago now, quietly expressed they want to be under Israeli law with freedoms and opportunity on mind.

The vast majority of people who leave the Middle East want to leave all the anger and hate behind and be safe in their new country. Only a small minority want to bring their crap with them.

I dare say many in the Middle East feel the same way and just want to live and be safe. But that said, they got the chance to vote and went with terrorists where most of the leaders live in other countries living the good life. You do have to wonder what the Palestinians expected would then happen.

 

[jason_recliner]

So the total of actual innocent people could be as low as 5,000 or so.

Could be but almost certainly isn't. What are you trying to say? 5,000 murdered women and children is acceptable to you?

 

[Bostonian]

Could be but almost certainly isn't. What are you trying to say? 5,000 murdered women and children is acceptable to you?

Well it changes the narratives of "Israel wants to wipe all the Palestinians out".

5000 out of a population of 5 million while not good is not the genocidal garbage plenty are spewing out.

 

[jason_recliner]

Well it changes the narratives of "Israel wants to wipe all the Palestinians out".

5000 out of a population of 5 million while not good is not the genocidal garbage plenty are spewing out.

Gaza's population is 2,000,000 and it's closer to 20,000 civilians killed, so getting on 1% of the population

 

[geoffjennings79]

Gaza's population is 2,000,000 and it's closer to 20,000 civilians killed, so getting on 1% of the population

You're wasting your time. 1,200 is a justifiable trigger, but 20, 10 or even 5,000 women and children in retaliation is just bad luck, when sophisticated weaponry can target individuals in square metreage. Like journalists.

 

[Bostonian]

Gaza's population is 2,000,000 and it's closer to 20,000 civilians killed, so getting on 1% of the population

This is why these figures are questioned.

You keep stating figures that have zero context or validity .

That there is an investigation into UN workers taking part in the Oct 7 attack shows nobody can be trusted and nobody should be presumed they are "innocent" in the context of this conflict.

 

[Bostonian]

You're wasting your time. 1,200 is a justifiable trigger, but 20, 10 or even 5,000 women and children in retaliation is just bad luck, when sophisticated weaponry can target individuals in square metreage. Like journalists.

Women, children, journalists can all be part of the Hamas machine.

And many are.

 

[Kurve]

You're wasting your time. 1,200 is a justifiable trigger, but 20, 10 or even 5,000 women and children in retaliation is just bad luck, when sophisticated weaponry can target individuals in square metreage. Like journalists.

Bibi and whoever is in charge of security should have stepped down after such a catastrophic failure on Oct 7 imo. It was just too easy with a very simple plan and they were in. 3,000 of them.

How Ben-Givr is surviving is beyond me.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Women, children, journalists can all be part of the Hamas machine.

And many are.

So Jason's figures are questionable, but your generalisation is not? Got it.

 

[Bostonian]

So Jason's figures are questionable, but your generalisation is not? Got it.

I'm not generalising.

It's in black and white that women, children etc are either part of or support Hamas.

Hamas has no issues with using children as combatants. That's not even disputed.

It's the pro- Palestinian media that keep pushing the women and children angle never once highlighting that these women and children figures could contain militant combatants and combat support.

No different to how the Viet Kong worked. The left leaning militants are big on that tactic.

 

[Kurve]

Well it changes the narratives of "Israel wants to wipe all the Palestinians out".

5000 out of a population of 5 million while not good is not the genocidal garbage plenty are spewing out.

It was enough though for the UNs principal judicial organ the ICJ not to dismiss South Africa's case but to check Israel with provisional measures, with over 70% of 2 million Gazans displaced.

I don't think we've ever seen anything so intense or on this scale before.

 

[Bostonian]

It was enough though for the UNs principal judicial organ the ICJ not to dismiss South Africa's case but to check Israel with provisional measures, with over 70% of 2 million Gazans displaced.

I don't think we've ever seen anything so intense or on this scale before.

The UN...

That clownish organisation.

Why does anyone trust that corrupt mouthpiece?

Here's how they work...

• 2022 UNGA Resolutions on Israel: 15​

• 2022 UNGA Resolutions on Rest of the World: 13​

Do you see the joke that is the UN there?

 

[Kurve]

I'm not generalising.

It's in black and white that women, children etc are either part of or support Hamas.

Hamas has no issues with using children as combatants. That's not even disputed.

It's the pro- Palestinian media that keep pushing the women and children angle never once highlighting that these women and children figures could contain militant combatants and combat support.

No different to how the Viet Kong worked. The left leaning militants are big on that tactic.

It's hard for all of them when over 16 years of Hamas in government, 51% unemployment and the only decent jobs going are with Hamas.

Many women would have sons who see being with Hamas as an opportunity.

I've never seen a people who could more aptly be described as being stuck between a rock and a hard place, as the people of Gaza.

 

[faible]

I think Israel have acted conscionably

Of course you do.

 

[geoffjennings79]

I'm not generalising.

You questioned Jason's figures.

So in the same vein, how many Gazan deaths are Hamas supporters? Or more specifically how many are Hamas supporters BY CHOICE?

Anyway, I guess the bottom line is you have no threshold for when the number of non-combatant deaths is unjustifiable, because "UN... something... something..."

 

[faible]

Gaza's population is 2,000,000 and it's closer to 20,000 civilians killed, so getting on 1% of the population

I suspect the ~26,000 death toll drastically undercounts the real one. Look at the damage done to Gaza.

Also, this doesn't even get to the amount of people injured, or the one's displaced without adequate food, water or shelter - a significant number of whom I also suspect will die.

 

[Bostonian]

It's hard for all of them when over 16 years of Hamas in government, 51% unemployment and the only decent jobs going are with Hamas.

Many women would have sons who see being with Hamas as an opportunity.

I've never seen a people who could more aptly be described as being between a rock and a hard place, as the people of Gaza.

Their backwards ideologies are holding them back.

When will that dawn on them?

Look how Lebanon went backwards after the Palestinians caused a Civil War there.

Now Lebanon is a shell of its former self.

There will never be peace there until that religion is usurped by secular Governments.

 

[Bostonian]

You questioned Jason's figures.

So in the same vein, how many Gazan deaths are Hamas supporters? Or more specifically how many are Hamas supporters BY CHOICE?

Anyway, I guess the bottom line is you have no threshold for when the number of non-combatant deaths is unjustifiable, because "UN... something... something..."

The bottom line is when you start a war be prepared to be pummeled to the ground.

Hamas knew that would happen though.