Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Zidane98]

The funny thing is that you "think" you understand the world.
Which means there is no real point arguing with you, because you "know" you are right.

Just like a flat earther.

 

[Bloods86]

Just like a flat earther.

A flat earther probably has a wider variety of sources

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Hey Ghostie,
GhostofJimJess

You laugh alot but don't say much.

Maybe because they don't have a facepalm option.

I'm going to do you the short courtesy on this occasion by responding, and then I'm going to leave it at that. Feel free to have the last word, because I'm done with your nonsense. I'll click like on your response to let you know I've acknowledged it.

I haven't put you on ignore because it's easy enough to just scroll down over your extended diatribes to find others who post what's actually going on in Ukraine. It's been especially painful over the school holidays when you've seemingly had so much more spare time on your hands to post the bejesus out of every thread with your Putin/Trump apologism (and don't ask for examples of where you've done it - that's for someone who gives more of a fk about arguing it out than me).

Your posts are a joke, so instead I just laugh. I'm not sure what reading you were exposed to at a critical period in your life that prompted you to going so deep in the rabbit hole into which you've descended, but it's something you might want to reflect on at some stage.

You are disrespectful to the many who try to respond to you, many of whom are wonderful posters who show great concern for other less fortunate humans and provide real insight into the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You are wilfully ignorant and purposefully diminish others by disregarding anything which doesn't meet your narrowed, blinkered ideologies. You claim to abhor propaganda, yet wallow in your own version of it.

You're probably a decent person who might care for those around you, and one day on another board we might be up for a lively debate on the relative merits of David Cloke's career at Collingwood vs Richmond, but I'm simply not engaging with you any more on this.

I've been on this site for 22+ years, and in that time I've had navigated all sorts of myopic posters, from narrow-minded Moslem fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Bush-apologists, flat-earthers, climate change deniers, Holocaust deniers, anti-vaxxers and now Russian apologists. They're not changing, so I'm no longer wasting my time.

 

[IlovethePies]

Maybe because they don't have a facepalm option.

I'm going to do you the short courtesy on this occasion by responding, and then I'm going to leave it at that. Feel free to have the last word, because I'm done with your nonsense. I'll click like on your response to let you know I've acknowledged it.

I haven't put you on ignore because it's easy enough to just scroll down over your extended diatribes to find others who post what's actually going on in Ukraine. It's been especially painful over the school holidays when you've seemingly had so much more spare time on your hands to post the bejesus out of every thread with your Putin/Trump apologism (and don't ask for examples of where you've done it - that's for someone who gives more of a fk about arguing it out than me).

Your posts are a joke, so instead I just laugh. I'm not sure what reading you were exposed to at a critical period in your life that prompted you to going so deep in the rabbit hole into which you've descended, but it's something you might want to reflect on at some stage.

You are disrespectful to the many who try to respond to you, many of whom are wonderful posters who show great concern for other less fortunate humans and provide real insight into the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You are wilfully ignorant and purposefully diminish others by disregarding anything which doesn't meet your narrowed, blinkered ideologies. You claim to abhor propaganda, yet wallow in your own version of it.

You're probably a decent person who might care for those around you, and one day on another board we might be up for a lively debate on the relative merits of David Cloke's career at Collingwood vs Richmond, but I'm simply not engaging with you any more on this.

I've been on this site for 22+ years, and in that time I've had navigated all sorts of myopic posters, from narrow-minded Moslem fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Bush-apologists, flat-earthers, climate change deniers, Holocaust deniers, anti-vaxxers and now Russian apologists. They're not changing, so I'm no longer wasting my time.

I'm only disrespectful to those who are disrespectful to me.

Thankyou for honouring me with reply.
I will frame it.

Anything that challenges your paradigm of Putin=fascist, Zelensky = democratic liberator, will be decried as you by "blinkered ideology."

It's easy to laugh, but so much harder to actually reply and explain what you disagree with. Because then you exposing your narrow mindedness to an open challenge, which you don't want.

As for David Cloke at Collingwood, I am not too sure, don't know too much about this.
I just remember 2018 Prelim.

 

[Chief]

Moslem

"Moslem"? Are you sure you haven't been here 122 years?

 

[GhostofJimJess]

"Moslem"? Are you sure you haven't been here 122 years?

Sorry Cheef.

 

[Mobbs]

GOJJ has been indeed been around for a very long time. I only ever really visit the Sweet FA and Fitzroy forums, and these two threads, and yet I've always considered him a household name forever. So I must have run into him in the very early days when there were 7 people and 3 raccoons on the site!

 

[Chief]

GOJJ has been indeed been around for a very long time. I only ever really visit the Sweet FA and Fitzroy forums, and these two threads, and yet I've always considered him a household name forever. So I must have run into him in the very early days when there were 7 people and 3 raccoons on the site!

They were pumping up the post count - two of those raccoons were alts.

 

[Zidane98]

By the same absurd logic, the US is also unable to fire a nuclear weapon.

Therefore, there is no need for Putin to worry about using the entire might of Russia's conventional military force (which he hasn't done yet) and totally crushing Ukrainian resistance.

Newsflash - Ukraine is being invaded by a modern day Hitler - not the US.

Ah, another threat here from you that Putin hasn't done his best yet in Ukraine. Now you're really showing your vatnik colours.

Hows your Black Sea fleet going Igor?

 

[Zidane98]

...are you insane?
Which nation on the earth is not "vulnerable" to a nnuclear attack?

That's why nobody fires them. Congratulations you're finally getting it.

Certainly not pathetically coward dictators like Adolf Putin suffering from small man syndrome.

 

[IlovethePies]

Newsflash - Ukraine is being invaded by a modern day Hitler - not the US.

Ah, another threat here from you that Putin hasn't done his best yet in Ukraine. Now you're really showing your vatnik colours.

Hows your Black Sea fleet going Igor?

Newsflash:

Russia invaded Ukraine because the modern day Hitler - US imperialism - is threatening to destroy the basis for the Putin regime and replace it with a set of multiple puppet regimes throughout the Russian Federation. This will represent, ultimately, an existential threat to the Putin regime and there is simply no one in the world who can guarantee that faced with such a threat, his regime will not resort to nuclear weapons.

Newsflash:

Zelensky is a puppet of US\NATO imperialism.

Newsflash: so is Netanyahu

Newsflash: quoting US\NATO propaganda and using terms of abuse with racist overtones does not imply any particular talent except that of parroting this propaganda and attempting to intimidate those who disagree with it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Newsflash - Ukraine is being invaded by a modern day Hitler - not the US.

Ah, another threat here from you that Putin hasn't done his best yet in Ukraine. Now you're really showing your vatnik colours.

Hows your Black Sea fleet going Igor?

The days of MAD are now obsolete.

The imperialists are now in the process of normalising nuclear war.

When, in the past, would the US have dared to authorise hitting territory deep inside Russia with ballistic missiles ? They wouldn't have, because at that stage in history, they thought it would mean "Mutually Assured Destructin".

Now the risk of provoking nuclear war is just a "normal part of life" that we should all accept??

 

[Zidane98]

The days of MAD are now obsolete.

The imperialists are now in the process of normalising nuclear war.

When, in the past, would the US have dared to authorise hitting territory deep inside Russia with ballistic missiles ? They wouldn't have, because at that stage in history, they thought it would mean "Mutually Assured Destructin".

Now the risk of provoking nuclear war is just a "normal part of life" that we should all accept??

Nobody buys bs nuclear war threats Igor, your ruse is up.

Ukraine fires on Russia, not the US. Another nonsense claim. Ukraine isn't declaring war on Iran & Nth Korea because they are supplying ballistic missiles, attack drones & ammo. You are showing your colours by not mentioning this but having a problem with the US doing the same.

There is no result in the Ukraine war that sees any nukes being used or even a risk of use. That is simple cold hard facts outlined in your countries nuclear doctrine.

 

[IlovethePies]

That's fine, just keep parroting the lies of European and US politicians.

I will keep striving to alert as many as possible to the huge dangers that confront humanity at the moment.

 

[IlovethePies]

@ Zidane

So the millions/billions of people who despise any form of socialism (whether or not it actually is socialism, they've been conditioned to hate it) are just going to 'have their understanding expanded' and join in this revolution?

I honestly wish it could happen like that. Unfortunately, human nature tends towards the selfish, so what you've said will never happen, and any revolution would need to be backed by force and end up the same way as the French and Russian revolutions did: in lots and lots of innocent bloodshed.

No, you have just nailed it.

Of course they cannot by themselves support socialism without clarification, because a gigantic historical fraud has been perprated, by both US propaganda and by Stalinist propaganda.



And that lie is : Stalinism = socialism.

That is why so many people mistakenly think that socialism implies an authoritarian dicatatorshp.

That is why it is so crucial for the working class, and all those who support the working class, should read the wsws and the writings of Leon Trotsky. Trotsky devoted his life to opposing Stalinism.

In the end, the Stalinists succeeded in murdering him.

But the Stalinists were unable to stop him from founding the Fourth iNterantional in 1938, which maintained the continuity of the fight for genuine socialism, ie world socialist revolution, against the murderous Stalinist dictatorships in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe.

It is not human nature (whatever that means) which stops the fight for socialist revolution. It is the political lies of imperialism, Stalinism and other fake socialists which block progress towards a higher level, and profoundly humane society.

What is required is the expansion of the influence of a Trotskyist revolutionary party which can explain these lessons of history.

 

[Zidane98]

Enough with the socialism garbage.

Ukraine isn't socialist, won't ever be socialist. Go start a thread about socialism ffs.

 

[IlovethePies]

...

So you want a NWO with one world government?

There's some people on the Conspiracy board you should meet.

Just to let you know, I dont respond to those who have NFI.

so last time I respond to you, until you prove that you have changed your status.

 

[modul8]

What is required is the expansion of the influence of a Trotskyist revolutionary party which can explain these lessons of history.

Maybe in some form of education camps. For the poor souls who can't see the benefits that undoubtedly await them

 

[IlovethePies]

Enough with the socialism garbage.

Ukraine isn't socialist, won't ever be socialist. Go start a thread about socialism ffs.

..um when did I say Ukraine was socialist??

You''re losing it, quite rapidly.

 

[IlovethePies]

Maybe in some form of education camps. For the poor souls who can't see the benefits that undoubtedly await them

---did you read my previous post about the difference between Stalinism and genuine socialism?

Until you are clear on that, or at least wish to pursue that topic further, there is no point in any interaction between you and me.

 

[modul8]

---did you read my previous post about the difference between Stalinism and genuine socialism?

Until you are clear on that, or at least wish to pursue that topic further, there is no point in any interaction between you and me.

Lol. Fine by me

 

[EagleMan87]

@ Zidane

No, you have just nailed it.

Of course they cannot by themselves support socialism without clarification, because a gigantic historical fraud has been perprated, by both US propaganda and by Stalinist propaganda.



And that lie is : Stalinism = socialism.

That is why so many people mistakenly think that socialism implies an authoritarian dicatatorshp.

That is why it is so crucial for the working class, and all those who support the working class, should read the wsws and the writings of Leon Trotsky. Trotsky devoted his life to opposing Stalinism.

In the end, the Stalinists succeeded in murdering him.

But the Stalinists were unable to stop him from founding the Fourth iNterantional in 1938, which maintained the continuity of the fight for genuine socialism, ie world socialist revolution, against the murderous Stalinist dictatorships in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe.

It is not human nature (whatever that means) which stops the fight for socialist revolution. It is the political lies of imperialism, Stalinism and other fake socialists which block progress towards a higher level, and profoundly humane society.

What is required is the expansion of the influence of a Trotskyist revolutionary party which can explain these lessons of history.

Gethelred
Happy to take this discussion to the appropriate thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/can-a-purely-socialist-society-exist.1387888/

 

[Mobbs]

Nothing I have ever said suggests that I favour authoritarians.

On the contrary, everything I have said opposes authoritarianism.

You're pure lies affirm authoritarian.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

You've got to be the worst pro Russian troll of all time.









Need I go on and embarrass you further?

You're hopeless. Utterly hopeless.

The general strategic interests of capitalist ruling elties are not determined by instantaneous snapshots of the stockmarket in general.

Otherwise, at the time of the Great Depression in 1929, the likes of you Zidane would have had to argue, in the midst of stockmarket collapse, for the overthrow capitalism, because stock market values were in freefall

Let me give you another standpoint. Right now, Wall St is surging...so maybe the war in Ukraine is favouring the rich after all

 

[Jamolad]

And that lie is : Stalinism = socialism.

That is why so many people mistakenly think that socialism implies an authoritarian dicatatorshp.

Reason people think that is the very fact that the Russian socialist revolution you speak is what gave us Stalin, and you have not said how you're going to prevent that happening again.

So the millions/billions of people who despise any form of socialism (whether or not it actually is socialism, they've been conditioned to hate it) are just going to 'have their understanding expanded' and join in this revolution?

I honestly wish it could happen like that. Unfortunately, human nature tends towards the selfish, so what you've said will never happen, and any revolution would need to be backed by force and end up the same way as the French and Russian revolutions did: with lots and lots of innocent bloodshed.

Yes, exactly this ^

It's why I wish he'd answer this post from the Trump/Harris thread, which he has ignored for a few days now. I expected at least one link to WSWS in response...not a link that actually answered or successfully addressed it, but a link none-the-less.

What you yearn for sounds good on the surface, but when the workers rise up and take power, who then runs the show?

And within that ruling class, how do you prevent the next Stalin from turning it into authoritarian socialism in order to prevent counter-revolution? Your Utopia is still going to have many that are unhappy with the change, and they'll be sowing discord and being a continual threat? Go on a purge?

Seems to me total socialism has been tried many times throughout history and ends up a dictatorial shit-show. Our system is not perfect, but the right mix of capitalism and socialism in a democratic society like Australia and Canada and most of the west is the sweet spot as far as I am concerned.

Sorry, not signing up for your world-wide revolution.

I'm guessing a purge is the answer - but a purge of the people they think are Stalin-like, so a 'just' purge in their eyes, with no awareness of their first step to being that next Stalin.