Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[jatz14]

Ukraine bans officials from using Telegram on state-issued devices

Decision comes after evidence was shared showing Russia’s ability to access Telegram messages and personal data.

www.aljazeera.com

And in case you believe al jazeera is one of those "fake news websites", here is another:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/ukraine-bans-official-use-telegram-app-over-fears-russian-spying-2024-09-20/

So, Russian intelligence has compromised messenger, and now Ukraine isn't letting messenger on official phones.

Your right, they are fascists.

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[IlovethePies]

So, Russian intelligence has compromised messenger, and now Ukraine isn't letting messenger on official phones.

Your right, they are fascists.

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Huh???

 

[Jamolad]

ummm...the wsws is not an account..

But yeah, Darth Putin twitter account sounds like a good place for you.

Darth Putin is not all I read.

I also like this site - you'll like it too, it is also about socialism and that whole League of the Fourth International that you often refer to: https://www.internationalist.org/wherewasdavidnorth.html

Only thing is, they really don't like that Peter North guy that runs that WSWS you love...like this bit

"But, then, what do you expect from a charlatan like David North, who denounces unions and justifies scabbing, while as David Green he is the president of a $25-million-a-year non-union printing company, Grand River Printing & Imaging? No one should give an ounce of credence to these scab “socialists."

Wow. David North, or David Green, sounds like quite the piece of work - according to that site anyway.

And you're going to hate this - Internationalist Group rates as more factual than WSWS according to the totally pro-imperialist biased media fact-checker, despite it being a socialist site.

• Overall, we rate MSN News strongly Left-Center biased, with most stories coming from Left-Center sources. We also rate them High for factual reporting because the majority of sources used are credible media outlets.

Suffer in your jocks!

 

[jatz14]

ummm...the wsws is not an account..

But yeah, Darth Putin twitter account sounds like a good place for you.

WSWS. Rated less reliable and more biased to the left, than Fox reliability, and bias to the right, on almost all media monitoring sites.

And Fox is utter shit.

If your trusting WSWS for your news, then much is explained.

Your the left wing equivalent of a Newsmax consuming rwnj.

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[IlovethePies]

Gethelred, I was prompted by your post to do some research on MBFC. (Media Bias Fact Check)

It was established in 2015 by an individual called Dave M Van Sandt, based in the US. His background is: a degree in Communications, and then a higher degree in the sciences. He currently works in the health care industry full time. He owns this company and makes all final editing and publishing decisions,
source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/frequently-asked-questions/

He is assisted by a collective of volunteers who assist in research for many sources listed on these pages. MBFC also provides occasional fact checks, original articles on media bias, and breaking/important news stories, especially as it relates to USA politics. Funding for Media Bias Fact Check comes from donations and third-party advertising.
source: https://library.csi.cuny.edu/c.php?g=619342&p=4310783

Here is one assessment of the methodology of Van Zandt's website:

""So they have no formula for determining the four different categories. They subjectively grade them on a scale of 0-10. They take those four grades, divide them by four and put a yellow dot on a line.

By they I mean Dave Van Zandt and a couple volunteers at best.

So there's no objective measure here at all. At best we might say there is a academic rubric that they subjectively fill in using their opinion."
Source: https://politicalhotwire.com/t/dave-van-zandt-media-bias-fact-check.257038/

Here is another:

Media Bias/Fact Check (MBFC) is an American website founded in 2015 by editor Dave M. Van Zandt. It uses a 0–10 scale to rate sites on two areas: bias and factual accuracy. It has been criticised for its methodology and accuracy.
Source: https://dbpedia.org/page/Media_Bias/Fact_Check

So it seems that MFBC is a website controlled by a well meaning individual who is a physiotherapist by occupation and has an intense interest in politics and journalistic fairness, assisted by a team of volunteers.

All I am saying here is that what you are effectively doing is judging the authenticity of websites here on BF on the advice of one well meaning individual and his equally well meaning volunteers.

But Dave Van Zandt, like everyone else in this world, is subject to capitalist propaganda. How can you be so sure that he is "unbiased", magically unaffected by the propaganda of the most powerful imperialist nation on the planet?

In reality, as I have said many times, it is impossible to be "unbiased" in a world that is riven by class conflict. The wsws is the only site in the world that takes the position of the working class and its independent interests. It is only by taking into account the independent interests of the working class - the only class in society that has a genuine class interest in the truth, both historical and contemporary - that one can arrive at a truthful analysis of society. So even "truth" is biased. It is biased in the interests of the working class.

It is only possible to sort through the pro-capitalist media, taking out the elements of truth and discarding the lies, if you approach it in its entirety on the basis of the independent attitude of the working class.

I am definitely sure that Dave M Van Zandt and his volunteers, despite their good intentions, are not doing this.

Hence, yes, MFBC is a pro-capitalist website which cannot be trusted in its assessment of media bias.

Darth Putin is not all I read.

I also like this site - you'll like it too, it is also about socialism and that whole League of the Fourth International that you often refer to: https://www.internationalist.org/wherewasdavidnorth.html

Only thing is, they really don't like that Peter North guy that runs that WSWS you love...like this bit



Wow. David North, or David Green, sounds like quite the piece of work - according to that site anyway.

And you're going to hate this - Internationalist Group rates as more factual than WSWS according to the totally pro-imperialist biased media fact-checker, despite it being a socialist site.

• Overall, we rate MSN News strongly Left-Center biased, with most stories coming from Left-Center sources. We also rate them High for factual reporting because the majority of sources used are credible media outlets.

Suffer in your jocks!

Another example of an ignoramus who just went on Google and, without any faculties of critical thought nor knowledge of the actual topic, finds an anti-Trotskyist liar and then quotes his ravings as proof of something he knows not one iota about
Yeah, that's you, Jammalad.
Why don't you go to the wsws and read something Dave North has actually written?
Try to drag yourself away from Darth Putin, if you can.

 

[Jamolad]

Nah, might read more about the WSWS from sources other than the WSWS.

Like this: https://arielsheen.com/index.php/20...avior-unethical-journalism-fundraising-fraud/

One issue with this type of false news reporting is that it perpetuates a narrative based on ignorance that fits into the geopolitical goals of foreign nationals – specifically Venezuela and Russia.

If people are afraid over things they shouldn’t be and they believe that unconstitutional things are happening when they aren’t it exacerbates perceptions of political polarization and loss of confidence in the government. Which is not to say that news which leads to that should be censored, but that fake conspiracies like the one which WSWS, Andre Damon, Chris Hedges, David North and all of the other members of this network should not be able to be classified as news on social media.

If they can’t make the effort to inform themselves before they seek to inform others; if they can’t make the effort to fact check themselves after someone like myself has contacted them; if they raise money for a fraudulent basis that’s connected to these networks – these people aren’t journalists, but foreign propagandists.

That is just the closing paragraphs - full article is a very good read.

You know, do my own research and all that.

Lots of infighting in your socialist circles it seems - the various socialist bodies seem to hate each other, and fight each other, more than they do capitalists.



Sorry, only WSWS are the true socialist - and everyone else are "pseudo-left" yeah?

Another example of an ignoramus who just went on Google and, without any faculties of critical thought nor knowledge of the actual topic, finds an anti-Trotskyist liar and then quotes his ravings as proof of something he knows not one iota about
Yeah, that's you, Jammalad.
Why don't you go to the wsws and read something Dave North has actually written?
Try to drag yourself away from Darth Putin, if you can.

I read enough crap on WSWS when I exposed your supposed critical and independent thoughts as straight-out copy-pastes of that site. How about instead of saying I am quoting ravings as proof of something I know not one iota about, debunk the allegations against Peter North (Peter Green?) in that article. And the other allegations too.

 

[IlovethePies]

WSWS. Rated less reliable and more biased to the left, than Fox reliability, and bias to the right, on almost all media monitoring sites.

And Fox is utter shit.

If your trusting WSWS for your news, then much is explained.

Your the left wing equivalent of a Newsmax consuming rwnj.

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I have already posted about media bias ratings.
They are worth less than Coles/Woolworths discounts.

 

[IlovethePies]

Nah, might read more about the WSWS from sources other than the WSWS.

Like this: https://arielsheen.com/index.php/20...avior-unethical-journalism-fundraising-fraud/



That is just the closing paragraphs - full article is a very good read.

You know, do my own research and all that.

Lots of infighting in your socialist circles it seems - the various socialist bodies seem to hate each other, and fight each other, more than they do capitalists.



Sorry, only WSWS are the true socialist - and everyone else are "pseudo-left" yeah?

The politics of the pseudo-left

 

[Jamolad]

Seriously, you quote a post of mine that sarcastically ends with "Sorry, only WSWS are the true socialist - and everyone else are "pseudo-left" yeah?" and you reply with a link to WSWS article about "pseudo-left"

fknlol...and you try to lecture us about thinking for ourselves, you are an absolute joke. If that WSWS site ever went down, you would not be able to form any kind of argument...and with that site available, all you can do is regurgitate very questionable content, and pass it off as your own independent thought (sometimes you use a thesaurus to change a few adjectives in your copy-paste to try to hide your blatant copy-paste).

 

[Gethelred]

Gethelred, I was prompted by your post to do some research on MBFC. (Media Bias Fact Check)

It was established in 2015 by an individual called Dave M Van Sandt, based in the US. His background is: a degree in Communications, and then a higher degree in the sciences. He currently works in the health care industry full time. He owns this company and makes all final editing and publishing decisions,
source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/frequently-asked-questions/

He is assisted by a collective of volunteers who assist in research for many sources listed on these pages. MBFC also provides occasional fact checks, original articles on media bias, and breaking/important news stories, especially as it relates to USA politics. Funding for Media Bias Fact Check comes from donations and third-party advertising.
source: https://library.csi.cuny.edu/c.php?g=619342&p=4310783

Here is one assessment of the methodology of Van Zandt's website:

""So they have no formula for determining the four different categories. They subjectively grade them on a scale of 0-10. They take those four grades, divide them by four and put a yellow dot on a line.

By they I mean Dave Van Zandt and a couple volunteers at best.

So there's no objective measure here at all. At best we might say there is a academic rubric that they subjectively fill in using their opinion."
Source: https://politicalhotwire.com/t/dave-van-zandt-media-bias-fact-check.257038/

Here is another:

Media Bias/Fact Check (MBFC) is an American website founded in 2015 by editor Dave M. Van Zandt. It uses a 0–10 scale to rate sites on two areas: bias and factual accuracy. It has been criticised for its methodology and accuracy.
Source: https://dbpedia.org/page/Media_Bias/Fact_Check

So it seems that MFBC is a website controlled by a well meaning individual who is a physiotherapist by occupation and has an intense interest in politics and journalistic fairness, assisted by a team of volunteers.

All I am saying here is that what you are effectively doing is judging the authenticity of websites here on BF on the advice of one well meaning individual and his equally well meaning volunteers.

But Dave Van Zandt, like everyone else in this world, is subject to capitalist propaganda. How can you be so sure that he is "unbiased", magically unaffected by the propaganda of the most powerful imperialist nation on the planet?

What I am saying is that we use sites like Mediabias to determine which sites have shared misinformation, failed factchecks without correction, shared known conspiracy theories, or spread pseudoscience. These are not the subject of capitalist propaganda; these are statements of fact.

I don't care if a site is left, right or from the nonexistent centre. What matters to me is that they've not been dishonest in their representations of reality.

In reality, as I have said many times, it is impossible to be "unbiased" in a world that is riven by class conflict.

You don't need the bolded. It is impossible to be unbiased, period.

The wsws is the only site in the world that takes the position of the working class and its independent interests. It is only by taking into account the independent interests of the working class - the only class in society that has a genuine class interest in the truth, both historical and contemporary - that one can arrive at a truthful analysis of society. So even "truth" is biased. It is biased in the interests of the working class.

The beauty of MBFC is in it does some of the research for you. From its page on WSWS:

Finally, WSWS frequently reports favorably on Wikileaks and Julian Assange, which we have rated as Mixed for factual reporting due to the “promotion of the Seth Rich-DNC Conspiracy Theory, as well as connections to the Russian Government and frequent use of anonymous sources.”

... which is why it is rated 'mostly factual': proper sourcing of information and referencing is important.

It is only possible to sort through the pro-capitalist media, taking out the elements of truth and discarding the lies, if you approach it in its entirety on the basis of the independent attitude of the working class.

Van Zandt is just in reality a random individual who is trying to do his best. So i ask you why do you think placing so much faith in MFBC is a strong basis for determining what is truthful and what is not?

I am definitely sure that Dave M Van Zandt and his volunteers, despite their good intentions, are not doing this.

Hence, yes, MFBC is a pro-capitalist website which cannot be trusted in its assessment of media bias.

You don't have to agree with the rules as adjudicated, but they still apply to you. Consider this fair warning.

 

[IlovethePies]

Nah, might read more about the WSWS from sources other than the WSWS.

Like this: https://arielsheen.com/index.php/20...avior-unethical-journalism-fundraising-fraud/



That is just the closing paragraphs - full article is a very good read.

You know, do my own research and all that.

Lots of infighting in your socialist circles it seems - the various socialist bodies seem to hate each other, and fight each other, more than they do capitalists.



Sorry, only WSWS are the true socialist - and everyone else are "pseudo-left" yeah?




I read enough crap on WSWS when I exposed your supposed critical and independent thoughts as straight-out copy-pastes of that site. How about instead of saying I am quoting ravings as proof of something I know not one iota about, debunk the allegations against Peter North (Peter Green?) in that article. And the other allegations too.

You read enough of sfa...sorry, but that's the truth.
His name is David North, not Peter North

You have gone to Google in a frame of mind to deal a death blow to me (metaphorically speaking), angry because you don't know anything about Trotskyism, nor the wsws, and you just hate anything that opposes your political outlook.

You come up with some totally decrepit website, which supposedly proves that David North is a liar.

There is no attempt on your part to find out the origins of this decrepit website, nor even who David North is, and what the wsws actually stands for.

Try again tomorrow, when you have gotten over your tantrum.

 

[Jamolad]

Those that know Peter North got the joke.

I looked into it - my research said that site was more trustworthy than WSWS, and I could not find anything to debunk the allegations they made against your hero.

So, how about you debunk them, using a trustworthy independent source (something other than WSWS).

Won't hold my breath, though do look forward to your pathetic deflection and avoidance - dis gonna be good!

And note that I did not even reference the allegations of supporting pedophiles and rapists...some might have gone with those allegations, but I thought the Roman Polanski stuff not definitive, did not pass my credibility sniff-test, so left those salacious allegations out of it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Those that know Peter North got the joke.

I looked into it - my research said that site was more trustworthy than WSWS, and I could not find anything to debunk the allegations they made against your hero.

So, how about you debunk them, using a trustworthy independent source (something other than WSWS).

Won't hold my breath, though do look forward to your pathetic deflection and avoidance - dis gonna be good!

And note that I did not even reference the allegations of supporting pedophiles and rapists...some might have gone with those allegations, but I thought the Roman Polanski stuff not definitive, did not pass my credibility sniff-test, so left those salacious allegations out of it.

You just included the salacious allegations.

I don't have to debunk anything that you advance from "research" googled in the sewerage system of anti-Trotskyism.

 

[IlovethePies]

Just googled Peter North,... not surprised you know him.
So that's where you go, the filmography of Peter North, when not on Darth Putin?

 

[Jamolad]

I don't have to debunk anything that you advance from "research" googled in the sewerage system of anti-Trotskyism.

We all know that if you could debunk them, via an independent trustworthy source, you absolutely 100% would.

The fact that you won't speaks volumes.

The fact that you used "sewerage system of anti-Trotskyism" as the excuse for your avoidance says more about you than you should want to admit or display.

Does this forum have a Classified section? Doubt I'll get much for it, but might just advertise your arse for sale, as right now I own it.

 

[IlovethePies]

We all know that if you could debunk them, via an independent trustworthy source, you absolutely 100% would.

The fact that you won't speaks volumes.

The fact that you used "sewerage system of anti-Trotskyism" as the excuse for your avoidance says more about you than you should want to admit or display.

Does this forum have a Classified section? Doubt I'll get much for it, but might just advertise your arse, as I now own it.

You own nothing...except maybe some CD's (given the time period) of Peter North.
Maybe try a firesale on ebay instead?

 

[Zidane98]

Incredible anyone would try and defend wsws as a valid source considering its connections to Russia.

About as independent as award winning & 1000% independent website The Grayzone.

 

[IlovethePies]

Incredible anyone would try and defend wsws as a valid source considering its connections to Russia.

About as independent as award winning & 1000% independent website The Grayzone.

Wsws has no connection to the Russian government and is totally opposed to it. You are simply spreading disinformation and lies...not that this is if any concern to someone like you, but lies must always be called out so that when the truth catches up the liar will be held accountable.

 

[Zidane98]

Wsws has no connection to the Russian government and is totally opposed to it. You are simply spreading disinformation and lies...not that this is if any concern to someone like you, but lies must always be called out so that when the truth catches up the liar will be held accountable.

My concern is the people of Ukraine who overwhelmingly have rejected Russia, Putin & fascism.

For doing this they get massacred, murdered, r*ped, tortured, genoided and have their human rights in general regularly abused by Russian animals simply because they dare to be Ukranian in Ukraine.


Your concern is absolutely clear - justifying the actions of Russia run by a psychopathic dictator. It's evident that you don't give a shit at all about the people of Ukraine and what they want.

I'll await your scripted response.
.

 

[jatz14]

Wsws has no connection to the Russian government and is totally opposed to it. You are simply spreading disinformation and lies...not that this is if any concern to someone like you, but lies must always be called out so that when the truth catches up the liar will be held accountable.

No, it is a news source with a political ideology in ts name, and everything it says is filtered through that ideology. If it cannot be spun to suite their political agenda, it isn't reported at all.

If something bad happens, they will find a way to blame capitalism, the US, the West, or imperialism (their self serving definition of course, not it's literal meaning), or all 4

It would be like getting your view of the world through Liberal party newsletters.

It explains neatly why you have to lay the blame for the war at the feet of the West. Your preferred news source says so, but it would say that, regardless.

From the way you post, it's pretty clear all your other news sources parrot the same sorts of lines.



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[IlovethePies]

My concern is the people of Ukraine who overwhelmingly have rejected Russia, Putin & fascism.

For doing this they get massacred, murdered, r*ped, tortured, genoided and have their human rights in general regularly abused by Russian animals simply because they dare to be Ukranian in Ukraine.


Your concern is absolutely clear - justifying the actions of Russia run by a psychopathic dictator. It's evident that you don't give a shit at all about the people of Ukraine and what they want.

I'll await your scripted response.
.

None of the above is true, but I will highlight your reference to "Russian animals" which says everything one needs to know about where you are coming from politically. Whether you are aware of it or not, you are articulating the views of Ukrainian neo-nazism.

 

[Zidane98]

None of the above is true, but I will highlight your reference to "Russian animals" which says everything one needs to know about where you are coming from politically. Whether you are aware of it or not, you are articulating the views of Ukrainian neo-nazism.

Yes, the Russian soldiers that invade Ukraine to murder, torture, rape & loot Ukranian civilians are animals.


Notable you are upset about them being characterised in this way - despite Russian soldiers actually doing all of the above in Ukraine.

 

[Zidane98]

It is of course noteworthy that there are no reports about Ukranian soldiers doing the same in both the Independent People's Republic of Kursk and Independent People's Republic of Belgorod territory save for a few pieces from official Russian government social media pages which we can obviously dismiss as nonsense.

 

[Zidane98]

A very clear and succinct run down of evens preceding the revolution of dignity in Ukraine and the actual event itself.

 

[IlovethePies]

No, it is a news source with a political ideology in ts name, and everything it says is filtered through that ideology. If it cannot be spun to suite their political agenda, it isn't reported at all.

If something bad happens, they will find a way to blame capitalism, the US, the West, or imperialism (their self serving definition of course, not it's literal meaning), or all 4

It would be like getting your view of the world through Liberal party newsletters.

It explains neatly why you have to lay the blame for the war at the feet of the West. Your preferred news source says so, but it would say that, regardless.

From the way you post, it's pretty clear all your other news sources parrot the same sorts of lines.



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This is a good post, (except for the silly line about the Librrals) because you have got the issues correct, even from an oppositional standpoint
Yes it is a news source with a political ideology, which it openly makes clear. This is totally different to all other news sources which also operate with an ideology and also have an agenda, which they do not make clear.

The wsws makes very clear that it is anti-capitalist.It likewise makes clear that it's analysis is based on Marxism, which explains that global capitalism is now historically obsolete and is leading to fascist dictatorship, social immiseration and world war 3 unless the international proletariat can unite across all national borders and seize political power worldwide.

The threat of fascism hangs over all countries, including the US where Trump is assembling a fascist movement which he will seek to mobilise and seize power regardless of the election result. There is no way he will accept an electoral defeat.

You are correct in saying that the wsws will blame imperialism for all the catastrophes now engulfing the planet because that is what is happening. Global capitalism is leading to a political, social and ecological disaster which cannot be prevented outside of abolishing the social system which is producing it.

Obviously it is your right to reject this analysis.
But there is a point to make clear: the wsws does not hide it's anti capitalist standpoint. It is there for everyone to see before they start to read. Even if one doesnt agree with an anti capitalist standpoint, surely one would benefit from reading this standpoint, cross checking with their own assumptions and knowledge, to try to gain a more accurate picture of reality. Do you learn more about reality simply by reading sources that fundamentally agree with the status quo, or should one instead put these sources to the test as well?