Europe War in Ukraine

[CatToTheFuture]

If that's the deal then well played Vlad. Minimal gains to go with your tanked economy, loss of hardware and almost complete loss of respect in the world.

Totally worth it.

It's a win though, because a language that wasn't being suppressed is guaranteed to continue not being suppressed, and the Ukranians will continue to not be able to join an organisation they weren't able to join before the war.

 

[swingdog]

And now apparently a deal in the making




No turnover of territory to the Russians. The only concession being Russian is guaranteed to become an official language in Ukraine.


I think this is a good deal for Ukraine if Russia agrees to pay reparations and also agrees that NATO can defend Ukraine in the event of another Russian attack or attack from proxies on behalf of Russia. There has to be some sort of security guarantee that the Russians can't break without serious consequences otherwise they'll just invade again.

Surely the other question is what deal would trigger a lifting of sanctions? Would have to involve massive reparations from Russia to rebuild Ukraine.

 

[Kwality]

You mean you? Or NATO? Because the latter have definitely thought about how it would work.

The Yanks/NATO in the real world.

 

[Zidane98]

I don't think NATO is going to accept Ukraine given the probability of escalation.

Keeping the Ukrainian and forces intact though likely means equipment bought at a steep discount, NATO country trainers coming in as private contractors etc.

Ukraine can probably become a serious porcupine

I'm not suggesting membership for Ukraine in NATO. Just a partnership agreement whereas they defend Ukraine if attacked by Russia and/or proxies on behalf of Russia.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Were the Russians at the discussion ?

The one in the linked article? Yeah it's the current state of their negotiations according to FT citing two of the negotiators as a source

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I'm not suggesting membership for Ukraine in NATO. Just a partnership agreement whereas they defend Ukraine if attacked by Russia and/or proxies on behalf of Russia.

Yeah I wonder if Ukraine is free to pursue private treaties outside of NATO. I wonder if NATO countries are with them?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Surely the other question is what deal would trigger a lifting of sanctions? Would have to involve massive reparations from Russia to rebuild Ukraine.

I think there might be a bit of bluster about it, but if the war is over then western governments won't be able to stay aligned on them.

There might be some that kick on but the ones that actually hurt like the central bank ones will come off pretty quick

 

[swingdog]

The Yanks/NATO in the real world.

This is a good listen on no fly zones and why this one would be problematic. TLDR: basically guarantees war with Russia.

MWI Podcast: Understanding No-Fly Zones - Modern War Institute

Almost immediately after Russian forces invaded Ukraine two weeks ago, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy began calling for NATO to implement a no-fly zone over his country to negate the effects […]

mwi.usma.edu

 

[Jbudds]

Surely the other question is what deal would trigger a lifting of sanctions? Would have to involve massive reparations from Russia to rebuild Ukraine.

Who pays the repair bill?

 

[Zidane98]

Yeah I wonder if Ukraine is free to pursue private treaties outside of NATO. I wonder if NATO countries are with them?

They'll need some sort of agreement / treaty which provides defense against attacks from Russia and/or Russian proxies. Otherwise what's to stop Russia just invading again? They're right on the doorstep of Ukraine. Otherwise any agreement is simply pointless.

 

[CD Xbow]

Imagine your tank commander tells you to drive down an urban street with no supporting infantry, in fact enemy drones overhead watching your every move.

Seems like Tanks are pretty useless in the age of hand-held anti-tank missiles and $60 drones for spotting. These tanks didn't stand a chance.

Yes, it's called Combined Arms, the world has been doing it since ancient times. Not sure why the Russians have become so deficient.

If that's the deal then well played Vlad. Minimal gains to go with your tanked economy, loss of hardware and almost complete loss of respect in the world.

Totally worth it.

So much winning!

Add to it

• The reputation of Russian armed forces has tanked.
• Diplomatic isolation of the RF
• Complete loss of trust in the RF by other countries
• pissing off your new best friend (PRC)
• showed the whole world the west still has power
• unified Europe
• reversed the Germans 'Pacifistic' military budget
• added encouragement to those outside NATO to join
• demonstrated Mr Putin's poor judgement and hubris

 

[Zidane98]

Who pays the repair bill?

Putin's Oligarchs.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Propaganda is coming thick & fast with truth usually a victim, e.g who is Miles Taylor, from a guy inside the Trump administration.

What are you peddling here Sir_Loin ..... no meat here.

Taylor wrote The New York Times op-ed "I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration" under the pen-name "Anonymous", which drew widespread attention for its criticism of Trump.

I thought it was a pretty clear. A republican appointee who worked in his administration stated Trump was full of shit about Russia and was such a stupid campaigner that he was getting played by Putin. Got it?

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, it's called Combined Arms, the world has been doing it since ancient times. Not sure why the Russians have become so deficient.

So much winning!

Add to it

• The reputation of Russian armed forces has tanked.
• Diplomatic isolation of the RF
• Complete loss of trust in the RF by other countries
• pissing off your new best friend (PRC)
• showed the whole world the west still has power
• unified Europe
• reversed the Germans 'Pacifistic' military budget
• added encouragement to those outside NATO to join
• demonstrated Mr Putin's poor judgement and hubris

On the plus side ties with Belarus were strengthened....

 

[Kwality]

The one in the linked article? Yeah it's the current state of their negotiations according to FT citing two of the negotiators as a source

I dont read it that way.

 

[footyfan1978]

I think a lot of people will have switched plans from Moscow/St Petersburg to Kyiv/Lviv. It is where Russian culture originated after all.

Kyiv and St.Petersburg the most interesting. I had not real desire to see Moscow.
Kyiv is such an old city it would be amazing to visit it.

 

[Sir_Loin]

Yep, can't see Ukraine going for any kind of de-militarisation as part of a deal.

Ironically enough, the last 3 weeks would have confirmed to them and any neighbours exactly why they need to remain well armed.

And motivated and committed to defending their homeland. Including Crimea and Donbas. Ukrainians are tough as ****

 

[footyfan1978]

Would love to visit russia but wouldnt consider it while a murderous homophobic dictator runs it

Hopefully he is gone so it becomes a reality.
At the moment he on a course to **** up two nations in a massive way.

 

[Kwality]

I thought it was a pretty clear. A republican appointee who worked in his administration stated Trump was full of sh*t about Russia and was such a stupid campaigner that he was getting played by Putin. Got it?

The use of the guy in a historic sense was what threw me. Got it now

 

[swingdog]

Who pays the repair bill?

That's what I'm wondering, whether that can be tied somehow to lifting of the financial sanctions.

 

[bourbons]

Biden is walking away from supporting a no fly zone for NATO because WW3 ..... just another example of the absence of leadership in any of the Euro countries, they are hiding behind Biden, how weak they are.

Understandable though, a NATO-enforced no-fly zone over a non-NATO country is messy and would significantly up the odds re: escalation.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Yes, it's called Combined Arms, the world has been doing it since ancient times. Not sure why the Russians have become so deficient.

So much winning!

Add to it

• The reputation of Russian armed forces has tanked.
• Diplomatic isolation of the RF
• Complete loss of trust in the RF by other countries
• pissing off your new best friend (PRC)
• showed the whole world the west still has power
• unified Europe
• reversed the Germans 'Pacifistic' military budget
• added encouragement to those outside NATO to join
• demonstrated Mr Putin's poor judgement and hubris

militarized japan too

 

[Toil83]

Yes, it's called Combined Arms, the world has been doing it since ancient times. Not sure why the Russians have become so deficient.

So much winning!

Add to it

• The reputation of Russian armed forces has tanked.
• Diplomatic isolation of the RF
• Complete loss of trust in the RF by other countries
• pissing off your new best friend (PRC)
• showed the whole world the west still has power
• unified Europe
• reversed the Germans 'Pacifistic' military budget
• added encouragement to those outside NATO to join
• demonstrated Mr Putin's poor judgement and hubris

Don't forget that Judo belt and Eurovision too

 

[Millky95]

Do people seriously not want Ukraine in NATO once this is all over?

 

[Zidane98]

If this deal is even close to true it's a huge back down by Putin. Can only imagine that was caused by something that happened internally. Putin seemed happy to continue his personal war against Ukraine at any cost.