Was the recruitment of Lance 'Buddy' Franklin, the undoing of the Swans?

[Freomaniac]

If you actually read the whole thread you would see this has already been all discussed and addressed.

Debatable*
Retired*
Don't*
Didn't*
Winning shouldn't be capitalized*

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Also, you absolutely are intending to be disrespectful, so not sure what that backhanded attempt at nicety is for. Don't come in a month after the fact and reignite old arguments when they've already been addressed.

P.S. seeing as you didn't decide to go and find it yourself, here's what I said earlier that addresses the above:

(This part was actually in the post you just referenced, which you clearly didn't read properly)

"It can be argued that Franklin's recruitment increased membership, marketing and corporate profitability for the club since his arrival (he really does bring fans through the gates), but for the long-term outlook, where membership sales could drop once the Swans bottom out, has the the short-term gain been worth the possible long-term downturn? I'd argue no, but that remains to be seen."

(This part was in response to the misinterpretation of my argument)


"I'm getting sick of having to repeat myself, lol. This is not just about Buddy. This conversation is about his lucrative recruitment that pushed others out, which may have changed the culture. I'm not saying it has, I'm saying that it's something to consider.

This is also not about who performed in Grand Finals, it's about how their list has performed AFTER the exodus of players. Yes they had Pyke, but the loss of Nankervis and Mumford meant they had no depth. When Naismith got injured, all they had left was Sinclair, as the result of losing Jetta back to West Coast.

Rohan was pushed out, even though he didn't want to leave. He was apparently very disgruntled about this. Wasn't a choice to just come back to Geelong. This is the point that I'm making. Mitchell was offered unders at the time, and the Hawks offered him more, so he left. He wouldn't have been offered unders, had the contracts of Buddy and Tippett not been taking up so much of the cap. Malceski was also pushed out early on in the piece, with other fringe players losing out too.

It's a question of culture, compromised by focusing salary cap on a finite amount of players. By the way, Mitchell was well entrenched by the time he left. Played 22 games in 2016, and 17 games in 2015. Was already an integral part of their midfield. The club just didn't see him as important enough to retain. Hawthorn needed a ready-made midfielder, which gave him the opportunity. Was always a gun player.

I don't care about the 3 years from 2014-2016 where he was still in his prime and all of the aforementioned were still on the list. I care about what happened following the fallout from the 2016 Grand Final. Even if they won in 2016, I'd still be asking the same question.

It's a discussion, but people seem to be misinterpreting and getting all up in arms, about the wrong thing. Buddy has been a fantastic player, there is no doubt about that, but did the Swans' short term outlook compromise their long term vision for the club? That is what I'm arguing."

We can talk about Gary Ablett snr at your mob too. The comparisons and Similarity are there too.

Both were gun key forwards in their prime. Arguably at their peak the best player in the comp and both are capable of winning a game off their own boot.

Again, as a neutral, both drew crowds and tv ratings too.

Ablett snr played 4 grand finals in 6-7 years. Buddy played 2 swans GFs in 3 years. I wouldn't classify Ablett snr at the cats or Buddy at the swans failures.

 

[SHAKESPEARE]

Sydney are unlucky to not have won two flags with him. They came up against a once in a generation Hawks team, and then a Dogs team riding a wave of emotion and favourable umpiring.

The week off after rd 23 was the biggest leg up in history.

A broken bulldogs side got healthy and stole a flag.

 

[Pessimistic]

five years since - 14-18 very similar to the five years before - 09-13 so not a lot of difference
Theres been some very lacklustre finals performances from a statistically excellent H&A side

But in and among grand finals and premiership

 

[james Dean]

Well this is starting to look silly.

Out of nowhere the Swans have arguably the most exciting young group in the league.

McDonald, Campbell and Goulden look like being stars

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

His contract will end just as we need sign up the plethora of young stars that are emerging. He’s now the cherry on top and could actually yet win a flag with Sydney.

I’m ok with how it’s gone.


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[Schauermann]

His contract will end just as we need sign up the plethora of young stars that are emerging. He’s now the cherry on top and could actually yet win a flag with Sydney.

I’m ok with how it’s gone.


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Actually funny, somehow 2 wins without him this year still help the deal look better/good.

It is very early, but him having impact in finals would really make it look very good.

 

[hk89]

His contract will end just as we need sign up the plethora of young stars that are emerging. He’s now the cherry on top and could actually yet win a flag with Sydney.

That still doesn't mean his contract didn't cost you flags, due to the difficulty in list management that it created. But flags are very hard to win, and it is hard to say you'd have been any closer or any further away from winning one during the period of time Buddy has been on your list, given his matching winning capabilities obviously help offset the list management issues caused by his arrival.

I wouldn't be getting too carried away about your win over Richmond though. We also beat up on them in round 3 last year by over 5 goals (and beat Brisbane in round 1), and we ended up bottom 4. Slow starters are Richmond.

I’m ok with how it’s gone.

I think I would be too, you've had the pleasure of watching one of the most exciting players to play the game run out for your side for years. I wish he'd stayed at Hawthorn for that very reason - not primary because we might have won even more flags if he had stayed.

 

[HairyO]

His contract will end just as we need sign up the plethora of young stars that are emerging. He’s now the cherry on top and could actually yet win a flag with Sydney.

I’m ok with how it’s gone.


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The previous 7 years of not winning flags and seeing good players depart and not being able to bring in players was all worth it because in 2 years he will be gone and Sydney can finally have a war chest to keep the young players they got cheaply through a corrupted academy programme?

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

The previous 7 years of not winning flags and seeing good players depart and not being able to bring in players was all worth it because in 2 years he will be gone and Sydney can finally have a war chest to keep the young players they got cheaply through a corrupted academy programme?

It’s debatable that we’d have won flags without Buddy or even made grand finals, so what’s your point? If he doesn’t go down early against the Dogs that’s probably a flag. Who knows.

Peak Buddy was 2013 to 2017 and we made two grand finals. Who are the players who would have got us to more than 2 finals in 5 years that we had to let go?

People so desperately want this to be a bad deal for us but it just isn’t and never was. Buddy did all he could but he’s not Superman, we reached finals and didn’t win them. It happens.

Your last sentence is just bitter stupidity that is miles off topic. Do you have anything else to add?


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[SBD Gonzalez]

The previous 7 years of not winning flags and seeing good players depart and not being able to bring in players was all worth it because in 2 years he will be gone and Sydney can finally have a war chest to keep the young players they got cheaply through a corrupted academy programme?

Which good players departed? Shane Mumford, Tom whatsisname that you guys got, who else?

 

[J_Moore]

Which good players departed? Shane Mumford, Tom whatsisname that you guys got, who else?

shane biggs never forget

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

shane biggs never forget

No doubt part of our premiership nucleus had we managed to keep him.


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[CheapCharlie]

The previous 7 years of not winning flags and seeing good players depart and not being able to bring in players was all worth it because in 2 years he will be gone and Sydney can finally have a war chest to keep the young players they got cheaply through a corrupted academy programme?

Strong is the Saltiness with this one

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Depending on this year and next, I can see a one year extension.

 

[TP86]

One umpire getting hoodwinked into paying 50m away from six GF losses in a row.

The Swans just get the occasional reality check away from cap and draft concessions, umpiring favours and a compliant media that assumes only brilliance could be the reason they've never dipped for more than a season in 30 years.

 

[threesixpio]

I’m the opposite on this - I think Buddy made the wrong choice. Should have gone to the Giants imo

 

[Xtreme]

I’m the opposite on this - I think Buddy made the wrong choice. Should have gone to the Giants imo

He could have stayed with Hawthorn and been a 4 time premiership legend but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

He got what he deserved for his traitorous ways (millions of dollars and no more premierships).
And Sydney also got what they deserved in their underhanded tactics recruiting him. Zero premierships forever more!

 

[NetworkNerd]

Always thought it was Kurt Tippett

Kurt Tippett

Age

37

Ht

202cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.8

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

the year before. It ended the no d***heads policy they had

 

[threesixpio]

Part of me thinks that the constant hand out culture at the Swans extends to GF day - “where is my flag please ?”

“Where’s my Buddy.”

 

[voorhees]

Always thought it was Kurt Tippett the year before. It ended the no d***heads policy they had

yep..2 bullets were fired.
one to the Swans
and a hail of bullets to the Crows.

 

[RocketBooster]

Great to see the hawthorn puppy squad out and yapping early on a Sunday morning

 

[Anja_Nees]

I’m the opposite on this - I think Buddy made the wrong choice. Should have gone to the Giants imo

Would have worked out better for almost everyone.

I don’t think it was the recruitment of Buddy itself that cost the Swans, rather it was recruiting Tippett and Buddy in successive years.

Close to $2m of their cap tied up in two key forwards who didn’t mostly didn’t fire when it counted (Buddy’s 2014 GF was good but didn’t count for much) is diabolical, and they earned a trading ban for their efforts.

Their 2012 key forward setup was as makeshift as it gets but it got the job done. They never needed a platinum KPF setup.

 

[PhatBoy]

Would have worked out better for almost everyone.

I don’t think it was the recruitment of Buddy itself that cost the Swans, rather it was recruiting Tippett and Buddy in successive years.

Close to $2m of their cap tied up in two key forwards who didn’t mostly didn’t fire when it counted (Buddy’s 2014 GF was good but didn’t count for much) is diabolical, and they earned a trading ban for their efforts.

Their 2012 key forward setup was as makeshift as it gets but it got the job done. They never needed a platinum KPF setup.

Last sentence is the key part - it just wasn’t needed. Buddy makes any team better and more capable of winning a flag, that’s indisputable whether they’ve won with him or without him. But investing in him AND another one who isn’t in the same ballpark - I don’t really know what it was supposed to achieve. It’s like the Demons getting Grundy - yeah he’s a great player at his best but what’s his necessity (I realise Buddy came AFTER Tippett) so it’s a bit different logistically.

 

[Daka]

They have not won a Premiership since COLA was taken off them.
Them getting Tippett & Buddy back to back trade periods put attention on them & it's what got COLA taken off them.

They should have just let GWS take him, it pissed off the AFL in my opinion.
The AFL wanted Buddy at the Giants. Swans should have just said they don't have room for Lance even if they did.

One thing I know about the AFL is they hold grudges.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

They have not won a Premiership since COLA was taken off them.
Them getting Tippett & Buddy back to back trade periods put attention on them & it's what got COLA taken off them.

They should have just let GWS take him, it pissed off the AFL in my opinion.
The AFL wanted Buddy at the Giants. Swans should have just said they don't have room for Lance even if they did.

One thing I know about the AFL is they hold grudges.

Franklin didn't want to play for the Giants. He wanted out of Melbourne, and wanted to move to Sydney because that would further his partner's career. What were the Swans going to do in that scenario, just let a rival club in the same city sign him to a contract without firing a shot?

Once Franklin made up his mind he wanted to leave Hawthorn and go to Sydney (the city), the Swans would have been derelict in their duty to their supporters and members to not explore the opportunity of signing him.

There's no Franklin curse. Fagan outcoached Longmire and the Brisbane players outplayed the Swans yesterday.