WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[My Tilly]

No tagging during Martin's peak. Bit like today's NBA with very little defense.

Just imagine heading into a grand final and your direct match-up is someone like Jake Kolodjashnij

8

Jake Kolodjashnij

Age

29

Ht

193cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.4

3star

K

6.9

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

148.5

2star

D

10.6

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.6

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

1.2

2star

MG

115.6

2star

D

11.8

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.4

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.2

5star

MG

69.4

1star

I know he's decent but he won't exactly feature strongly on Geelong best ever defenders list.

 

[Freomaniac]

Replace Cousins and Kerr with spuds such as Murphy and Gibbs and it's no wonder Judd never got close to another flag with Carlton

true.....

Marc Murphy and Bryce Gibbs were good and serviceable mids. Both of those blokes didnt win AA selections or Brownlow medals.

Cousins and Kerr were both good. Both got AA selections. Cousins won a brownlow in 2005. Kerr finished 1 vote behind cousins in 2005.

 

[Freomaniac]

Again people are nostalgic apart from the 89 finals series his finals record was abysmal…

View attachment 1434446

I know it is off topic but 16 goals in 4 finals in 1992 isnt bad. If it was 2024 standards, that would be very good.

Ablett snr kicked 3 of the cats goals in that 1992 AFL grand final. Cats were not good enough on the day to win.

 

[Paracleet]

How is there 28 pages of this? Judds best footy is head and shoulders above (and it was tearing me up inside).

 

[SplintWhisky]

Dusty's 2017 is the greatest individual season by a player in the history of the game. Take Judd and GAJ best season and it doesn't come close. Only thing is that he wasn't at that level in the H&W season really, ever again. He was good but not consistently great.

Would say that 2017 peaked for Dusty at a 10, issue is all the rest of his full seasons were a 7. GAJ and Judd had much more seasons at 8 and 9 mark consistently.

 

[btdg]

true.....

Marc Murphy and Bryce Gibbs were good and serviceable mids. Both of those blokes didnt win AA selections or Brownlow medals.

Cousins and Kerr were both good. Both got AA selections. Cousins won a brownlow in 2005. Kerr finished 1 vote behind cousins in 2005.

I think it is forgotten how good those guys were early in their career

Murphy was All Australian and won the coaches association MVP in 2011. He was a very good player and the Brownlow favourite early 2012 until he was injured. He had a two more bad collision injuries in the next couple of years (all three incidents would be considered dangerous tackles today) and in boxing parlance just had his bell rung one too many times - played his career out as a solid but soft runner.

Gibbs was also a fantastic all round midfielder and finished 9th in the Brownlow at age 20. For some inexplicable reason we moved him to half back the following 2 years and he started to almost focus too much on his defensive game. He then hit his peak right as Carlton were falling apart under Malthouse. He was AA squad in 2014 and unlucky to miss out imo (in a finals team they probably slot him in).

Judd had plenty to work with there, albeit never as a team never quite able to put it all together and his Dean Cox at Carlton (Kreuzer) could never get on the field, which didn't help.

I think Carlton Judd is vastly underrated too. His evolution as a player coincided with a big shift in how the game was played. He looked faster and quicker in 2007 because teams allowed a heap of space and were going 1-1 at stoppages. By 2012 teams like Collingwood were bringing countless extra guys to clog up the outside, rotating heavily to keep guys fresh and the size of midfielders increased drastically, as did the tackle count. Judd won his Norm Smith in a 2005 'slugfest' where the teams combined for 121 tackles. In 2011 the grand finalists combined for 179 tackles - it was a totally different game.

 

[PhatBoy]

Dusty's 2017 is the greatest individual season by a player in the history of the game. Take Judd and GAJ best season and it doesn't come close. Only thing is that he wasn't at that level in the H&W season really, ever again. He was good but not consistently great.

Would say that 2017 peaked for Dusty at a 10, issue is all the rest of his full seasons were a 7. GAJ and Judd had much more seasons at 8 and 9 mark consistently.

It was the most decorated. Whether he reached a level that others have reached is more than up for debate.

 

[Freomaniac]

I think it is forgotten how good those guys were early in their career

Murphy was All Australian and won the coaches association MVP in 2011. He was a very good player and the Brownlow favourite early 2012 until he was injured. He had a two more bad collision injuries in the next couple of years (all three incidents would be considered dangerous tackles today) and in boxing parlance just had his bell rung one too many times - played his career out as a solid but soft runner.

Gibbs was also a fantastic all round midfielder and finished 9th in the Brownlow at age 20. For some inexplicable reason we moved him to half back the following 2 years and he started to almost focus too much on his defensive game. He then hit his peak right as Carlton were falling apart under Malthouse. He was AA squad in 2014 and unlucky to miss out imo (in a finals team they probably slot him in).

Judd had plenty to work with there, albeit never as a team never quite able to put it all together and his Dean Cox at Carlton (Kreuzer) could never get on the field, which didn't help.

I think Carlton Judd is vastly underrated too. His evolution as a player coincided with a big shift in how the game was played. He looked faster and quicker in 2007 because teams allowed a heap of space and were going 1-1 at stoppages. By 2012 teams like Collingwood were bringing countless extra guys to clog up the outside, rotating heavily to keep guys fresh and the size of midfielders increased drastically, as did the tackle count. Judd won his Norm Smith in a 2005 'slugfest' where the teams combined for 121 tackles. In 2011 the grand finalists combined for 179 tackles - it was a totally different game.

1st off I didnt know Marc Murphy got into the 2011 All Australian side. Looking back, I am not suprised as Carlton won a final that year. They nearly beat West coast in that semi final too.

Looking at those 3 number 1 picks in 2005-07.
2005: Marc Murphy
2006: Bryce Gibbs
2007: Matt Kreuzer.

Chris Judd gets traded to the blues at the end of 2007. So essentially Judd was in his prime and Gibbs and Murphy were young. Kreuzer was a solid Ruck and KPF but was injured. Carlton had Robbie Warnock. They also had Sammy Sauce Jacobs behind those 2 for 4 seasons between 2007-2010. Jacobs ended up traded and better ruckman than both of those blokes.

So Carlton made finals in 2009 to 2011.

Not Suprisingly Mark Murphys stats in that 2009 to 2011 period are good. All 3 of those seasons Carlton made finals, Mark Murphy at a minimum kicked at least 20 goals a season and averaged 25 disposals a game.

The only major knock I will say about Mick Malthouse when he coached your mob from 2013-5, is Taking Andrew Walker away from the forward line. Walker had a season when he kicked 56 goals and 27 behinds.

Judds Best years at Carlton was 2009 to 2013. Yeah he had his fair share of (groin) injuries, But when fit, he imporved the blues.

Judds last 2 seasons were not good. 12 games in 2014 and 8 games in 2015. It want the Groin injuries that ended his career, it was the ACL injury that ended it sadly. He was only 31 years and 271 days old.

If he didnt have constant injuries, he could of easily played another couple of seasons.

He did play 100 games for both eagles and blues so both clubs can draft his kids.

 

[Fire]

Not better than GAJ at his best. Flashier, more amazing yes. But not better.
Probably not as good as Kouta either but they are very different eras so hard to say with confidence.
But yes, when we are comparing him to names like these, then he was an all time great, at least for a while. Certainly better than Voss, Hird and Buckley at their best.

 

[toomanysquibs]

1977​

Hawthorn

3​

24​

17-0-7​

514​

133​

144​

658​

91​

59​

The guy who had these stats playing on ball and resting forward isn't mentioned in this thread. But it's an eyeful, albeit during an era where team defense wasn't a thing. Taggers were though.

Those last three columns are ridiculous in any era. No soft ball in that 658 column either.

Back OT: Peak Judd at WC was untouchable in the context of this thread. Wasn't a long peak however. Ablett Jr. came in with a bang and improved at a ridiculous rate and was ungodly consistent. Martin was highly combustible as a mid and forward, but slower than the other two reaching his peak.

Wouldn't be unhappy reading any of those names on the team sheet. Judd's peak was just silly though, even his first year was kind of nuts.

 

[TheRealComptroller]

I’m not trolling. I am being sincere.

What is with this epic reverence for Dustin Martin’s 2017 season? I just don’t get it.

He averaged 29.76 touches and 1.48 goals a game. That’s certainly very, very good but it’s hardly at the legendary OMG WTF levels of greatness.

Right?

For context Dangerfield in that same year averaged 29.92 and 1.88 and I have zero interest in trying to make the case for that performance to be considered the greatest individual season ever.

FWIW Martin’s 2017 is however comfortably superior to Judd’s best season of 2006.

 

[PhatBoy]

I’m not trolling. I am being sincere.

What is with this epic reverence for Dustin Martin’s 2017 season? I just don’t get it.

He averaged 29.76 touches and 1.48 goals a game. That’s certainly very, very good but it’s hardly at the legendary OMG WTF levels of greatness.

Right?

For context Dangerfield in that same year averaged 29.92 and 1.88 and I have zero interest in trying to make the case for that performance to be considered the greatest individual season ever.

FWIW Martin’s 2017 is however comfortably superior to Judd’s best season of 2006.

It’s awards based. Brownlow, norm smith, premiership. People struggle to discern between levels reached and honours. Martin earned his awards - and others that year - fair and square, no argument from me. But the idea that it’s a black and white case of ‘well no one has done that before so it has to have been the best season ever and it can’t be open to debate’ is just silly.

The same argument can be made in any sphere of sport or the arts or whatever where awards are handed out.

 

[STPer18]

I’m not trolling. I am being sincere.

What is with this epic reverence for Dustin Martin’s 2017 season? I just don’t get it.

He averaged 29.76 touches and 1.48 goals a game. That’s certainly very, very good but it’s hardly at the legendary OMG WTF levels of greatness.

Right?

For context Dangerfield in that same year averaged 29.92 and 1.88 and I have zero interest in trying to make the case for that performance to be considered the greatest individual season ever.

FWIW Martin’s 2017 is however comfortably superior to Judd’s best season of 2006.

Ablett's often overlooked 2010 was 31.5 and 1.8 goals a game but that's practically par for the course over about a decade before his shoulder blew up. Best peak is Ablett Jnr, most consistent is Ablett Jnr.

 

[Fadge]

Ablett's often overlooked 2010 was 31.5 and 1.8 goals a game but that's practically par for the course over about a decade before his shoulder blew up. Best peak is Ablett Jnr, most consistent is Ablett Jnr.

Absolutely spot on.

And that is why he is head and shoulders above any player to have played the game since the turn of the century.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

It was the most decorated. Whether he reached a level that others have reached is more than up for debate.

A player cannot do more than ace the whole season.

Dusty 2017:

- Brownlow & Coaches MVP record votes.

- Undisputed best player in finals series with record votes for any player playing 3 or less finals & any player not named Dustin Martin.

- Club B & F

- Norm Smith Medal for BOG GF. Only one player apart from Dusty has ever returned a higher GF rating.

- 12 of the last 16 matches of the season(including finals) in best 3 on ground. 10 of those were BOG. 3 of the 4 matches outside votes were min 21 disposals & min 2 goals. Richmond needed to win almost all of these matches to finish top 4 & win the flag.

So these are not empty decorations. It is likely the most influential season ever played by a player. In case you need reminding it steered his team to a 37 year flag drought breaking Premiership. In fact they had not even won a final for 16 years. No player has ever come near the totality of that season, where he averaged 30 disposals, 15 contested possessions and 1.5 goals + 1.2 assists.

 

[PhatBoy]

A player cannot do more than ace the whole season.

- Brownlow & Coaches MVP record votes.

- Undisputed best player in finals series with record votes for any player playig 3 or less finals & any player not named Dustin Martin.

- Club B & F

- Norm Smith Medal for BOG GF. Only one player apart from Dusty has ever returned a higher GF rating.

- 12 of the last 16 matches of the season(including finals) in best 3 on ground. 10 of those were BOG. 3 of the 4 matches outside votes were min 21 disposals & min 2 goals. Richmond needed to win almost all of these matches to finish top 4 & win the flag.

So these are not empty decorations. It is likely the most influential seasons ever played by a player. In case you need reminding it steered his team to a 37 year flag drought breaking Premiership. In fact they had not even won a final for 16 years. No player has ever come near the totality of that season, where he averaged 30 disposals, 15 contested possessions and 1.5 goals + 1.2 assists.

Absolutely and I’m not criticising him in any way for that or in this case even passing a judgement on that season I’m just stating that accolades in general don’t equate to standard

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Absolutely and I’m not criticising him in any way for that or in this case even passing a judgement on that season I’m just stating that accolades in general don’t equate to standard

Your observation is not really relevant to the thread discussion unless it is being applied to Dusty's 2017 season, because that is what you were addressing. No player we know of has ever put together a season that was more influential in taking his team to a flag. And no player has ever played a more decorated season. From there it is extremely difficult to argue that anybody has ever played a better & more valuable season.

And if we accept that then either Judd or Ablett at their peak matched Dusty's peak.

Dusty's 2017 season basically has every subjective(voting awards) & objective(scoreboard impact, flag, player ratings) + finals performance covered in such a way from every angle that nobody else can hold a candle to it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Your observation is not really relevant to the thread discussion unless it is being applied to Dusty's 2017 season, because that is what you were addressing. No player we know of has ever put together a season that was more influential in taking his team to a flag. And no player has ever played a more decorated season. From there it is extremely difficult to argue that anybody has ever played a better & more valuable season.

And if we accept that then either Judd or Ablett at their peak matched Dusty's peak.

Dusty's 2017 season basically has every subjective(voting awards) & objective(scoreboard impact, flag, player ratings) + finals performance covered in such a way from every angle that nobody else can hold a candle to it.

I answered someone’s question.

 

[Captain_Bender]

I’m not trolling. I am being sincere.

What is with this epic reverence for Dustin Martin’s 2017 season? I just don’t get it.

He averaged 29.76 touches and 1.48 goals a game. That’s certainly very, very good but it’s hardly at the legendary OMG WTF levels of greatness.

Right?

For context Dangerfield in that same year averaged 29.92 and 1.88 and I have zero interest in trying to make the case for that performance to be considered the greatest individual season ever.

FWIW Martin’s 2017 is however comfortably superior to Judd’s best season of 2006.

Ablett's often overlooked 2010 was 31.5 and 1.8 goals a game but that's practically par for the course over about a decade before his shoulder blew up. Best peak is Ablett Jnr, most consistent is Ablett Jnr.

Dusty averaged more kicks than both Ablett and Dangerfield who both padded their stats with cheap handballs and also had more goals+assists

 

[Fadge]

I answered someone’s question.

Here we go again...

 

[Forward Press]

How is there 28 pages of this? Judds best footy is head and shoulders above (and it was tearing me up inside).

Anything involving GAJ vs Dusty accumulates their fanboys.

 

[STPer18]

Dusty averaged more kicks than both Ablett and Dangerfield who both padded their stats with cheap handballs and also had more goals+assists

Cool. Doesn't change that a regulation Ablett season was better than Martin's best.

"B-but the media and umpire trinkets say th-"

Don't care.

 

[Fadge]

Cool. Doesn't change that a regulation Ablett season was better than Martin's best.

"B-but the media and umpire trinkets say th-"

Don't care.

Spot on.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I answered someone’s question.

Your answer was that Dusty's 2017 was the most decorated season, but whether he reached a level that others have reached is open for debate.

It was the most decorated. Whether he reached a level that others have reached is more than up for debate.

Would you consider it open for debate if someone other than Dusty achieved so much in a single season? Say Ablett for eg? My guess is you and certain others would simply say Dusty wasn't in the debate, no matter how well he had played, because Ablett won A B C & D.

The thing is that based on the totality of all objective and subjective achievements of a player in a single season, there is no debate, Dusty's 2017 is above anybody else's peak season, definitely Judd & Ablett. The absolute best you could get away with is saying that in any such debate Dusty's 2017 starts clear in pole position.

The thread title wrongly states peak Judd was better than peak Dusty. 2017 conclusively proves that statement incorrect. That is the answer to the thread question. Chris Judd himself graciously gave Dusty some very high praise on his 300th game. I can't find the quote but from memory it was along the lines of best big game player ever - with a bit more detail. So whether you take a player's best season as his peak, or his best big game performances as his peak...I am not too sure "peak" carries much meaning in Aus Rules if it isn't one of those things.

 

[PhatBoy]

Your answer was that Dusty's 2017 was the most decorated season, but whether he reached a level that others have reached is open for debate.



Would you consider it open for debate if someone other than Dusty achieved so much in a single season? Say Ablett for eg? My guess is you and certain others would simply say Dusty wasn't in the debate, no matter how well he had played, because Ablett won A B C & D.

The thing is that based on the totality of all objective and subjective achievements of a player in a single season, there is no debate, Dusty's 2017 is above anybody else's peak season, definitely Judd & Ablett. The absolute best you could get away with is saying that in any such debate Dusty's 2017 starts clear in pole position.

The thread title wrongly states peak Judd was better than peak Dusty. 2017 conclusively proves that statement incorrect. That is the answer to the thread question. Chris Judd himself graciously gave Dusty some very high praise on his 300th game. I can't find the quote but from memory it was along the lines of best big game player ever - with a bit more detail. So whether you take a player's best season as his peak, or his best big game performances as his peak...I am not too sure "peak" carries much meaning in Aus Rules if it isn't one of those things.

Yes I would. Anything is open for debate.
You can claim ‘conclusively’ anything you want, but awards are merely that. Awards.

Awards don’t make Return of The King a better movie than LA Confidential.

You are allowed to debate anything.