Toast Welcome to the Club Aaron Naughty Naughton

[Johnny_Dogg4]

Watching Naughty this season, what's happened to his trademark launching at the footy?

Has he bulked up to much? Has it been coached out of him due to potential injury to not only himself, but team-mates?

Have a watch on YouTube of his highlights from that Richmond game back in 2019 at Marvel.

When's the last time we have seen him move that freely and launch at the footy like that?

He only took 21 contested marks this year. By comparison he took 65 in 2021, 42 in 2022 and 41 in 2023. He took 20 in 2020 when only playing 12 shortened games.

I understand he offers things in other areas, and there's alot of mouths for us to feed up forward. But this is his 1 wood and we need him back launching at the footy.

His tackling numbers are also down from 59 last year, to just 21 this year. It's all quite alarming.

IMO since his concussion in 2021 - he doesn’t launch that much anymore

 

[Dogsman16]

Opponents have also gone to school on him and taken away his run and jump.

Quite often illegally.

Anytime he sticks his hands in the back of his opponent it results in an opposition free. He’s legit the anti-Hawkins

 

[lachy]

Before getting hurt he was really developing as a genuine CHF which plays more to his strengths.

Not sure he was fully fit on Friday night but was still better than quite a few

 

[dogwatch]

The numbers are stark but probably can be explained by the responses above.

• role change - playing more up the ground, fewer opportunities for the speccy or even contested marks. The more open field also reduces his tackling opportunities compared to the often congested deep forward line.
• injuries
• players blocking his run (he was allowed free rein in that first year or so when he took so many speccies)
• maybe even the concussion

For all that didn't CD have him rated as the AFL's number 1 KPF at some point this year?
I'm not too worried.

 

[Dogsman16]

His scoring involvements are way up and he has a more diverse range of kicking goals.

2019 he kicked all 32 goals via set shot.

Now he’s able to get teams in the air on the ground. Number 1 champion data forward for first half of the season. He’s doing alright.

 

[bobs head soup]

The numbers are stark but probably can be explained by the responses above.

• role change - playing more up the ground, fewer opportunities for the speccy or even contested marks. The more open field also reduces his tackling opportunities compared to the often congested deep forward line.
• injuries
• players blocking his run (he was allowed free rein in that first year or so when he took so many speccies)
• maybe even the concussion

For all that didn't CD have him rated as the AFL's number 1 KPF at some point this year?
I'm not too worried.

Naughts was named CHF in Champion Data's end of season All Australian team.

 

[Freshwater]

Naughts was named CHF in Champion Data's end of season All Australian team.

And was in their team at the halfway point when he had missed a few games because of his knee injury.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Yet again Matthew Lloyd is calling for him to be shifted back at Lobb’s expense.

He’s doing fine forward, and given he hasn’t played back for five years why would anyone think he would do a better job there than Lobb is doing now?

So many of these muppets just watch the match highlights and spout their opinions like they’re gospel.

 

[bullish23]

Yet again Matthew Lloyd is calling for him to be shifted back at Lobb’s expense.

He’s doing fine forward, and given he hasn’t played back for five years why would anyone think he would do a better job there than Lobb is doing now?

So many of these muppets just watch the match highlights and spout their opinions like they’re gospel.

In Lloyd’s defense, I think the jury is very much out on whether 3 tall forwards work. And the other 2 couldn’t play back (well Darcy could, but its not hard to foresee he being our best forward next year).

 

[Libbaaaa]

In Lloyd’s defense, I think the jury is very much out on whether 3 tall forwards work. And the other 2 couldn’t play back (well Darcy could, but its not hard to foresee he being our best forward next year).

His point that they haven't really impacted games at the same time is fair, especially when you factor in Cody not playing a small forward role but rather a medium. It could be something to revisit properly once Jones finishes up.

 

[Anja_Nees]

His point that they haven't really impacted games at the same time is fair, especially when you factor in Cody not playing a small forward role but rather a medium. It could be something to revisit properly once Jones finishes up.

I see what he’s saying in that they haven’t had games where they’ve all kicked a bag, but they kicked close to 120 between them despite a fair few games missed.

Naughton offers as much as most smalls do defensively and allows JUH and Darcy to have less pressure on them. The problem on Friday was we got smacked out of the middle and JUH was very low energy. No one said anything during the last six weeks of the H&A season.

I also don’t see how our backline improves much if you just take out Lobb and install Naughton.

 

[Whoyagot]

There’s only so many contested marks to go around and Marra and Darcy are taking more responsibility as key forward 50 targets.

I really like how we’ve managed Nughton the last few years. He plays well up the ground. His style as key forward in 21 wasn’t sustainable for his body.

 

[bullish23]

His style as key forward in 21 wasn’t sustainable for his body.

That is an excellent point. He would have been cooked Dermot style but the time he was 28/29.

All the above points are valid. It’s an interesting watch.

 

[Bulldogger]

Yet again Matthew Lloyd is calling for him to be shifted back at Lobb’s expense.

He’s doing fine forward, and given he hasn’t played back for five years why would anyone think he would do a better job there than Lobb is doing now?

So many of these muppets just watch the match highlights and spout their opinions like they’re gospel.

Because it's not just about Naughton individually, the whole forward line is a problem, and has been since 2017.

I see what he’s saying in that they haven’t had games where they’ve all kicked a bag, but they kicked close to 120 between them despite a fair few games missed.

And how many finals won? Better yet, how many years have they won a single final?

Naughton offers as much as most smalls do defensively and allows JUH and Darcy to have less pressure on them. The problem on Friday was we got smacked out of the middle and JUH was very low energy. No one said anything during the last six weeks of the H&A season.

I also don’t see how our backline improves much if you just take out Lobb and install Naughton.

Sorry, but I don't care for this "less pressure on them" point. Not buying it.

There isn't going to be any more or less "pressure" on Ugle-Hagan and Darcy whether Naughton is in the forward line or not. At best they might get a slightly easier direct opponent, but that can easily change in the middle of a match. Hawthorn were very short at the back on friday, yet they comfortably shut all of our talls down, especially Naughton and Ugle-Hagan.

If a player's role is to be a key-forward, the best way to optimise their output is to set up a system that allows the player to get the best out of themselves. For a player like Ugle-Hagan, that could very well entail removing Naughton from the forward line. One of the biggest problems this team has is that too many players go for the same mark up forward. Even our "best" small forward Weightman is always trying to mark everything. We need less of this type of player, and more natural crumbing players.

I would not omit Lobb from defence to accommodate Naughton, but I would've at least liked to see Naughton get an extended run as the main interceptor at some point in the last 5 years. This didn't happen because Beveridge possesses no humility, and no desire to deviate from his ideas.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Because it's not just about Naughton individually, the whole forward line is a problem, and has been since 2017.

And how many finals won? Better yet, how many years have they won a single final?

Sorry, but I don't care for this "less pressure on them" point. Not buying it.

There isn't going to be any more or less "pressure" on Ugle-Hagan and Darcy whether Naughton is in the forward line or not. At best they might get a slightly easier direct opponent, but that can easily change in the middle of a match. Hawthorn were very short at the back on friday, yet they comfortably shut all of our talls down, especially Naughton and Ugle-Hagan.

If a player's role is to be a key-forward, the best way to optimise their output is to set up a system that allows the player to get the best out of themselves. For a player like Ugle-Hagan, that could very well entail removing Naughton from the forward line. One of the biggest problems this team has is that too many players go for the same mark up forward. Even our "best" small forward Weightman is always trying to mark everything. We need less of this type of player, and more natural crumbing players.

I would not omit Lobb from defence to accommodate Naughton, but I would've at least liked to see Naughton get an extended run as the main interceptor at some point in the last 5 years. This didn't happen because Beveridge possesses no humility, and no desire to deviate from his ideas.

The difference for Darcy or JUH if Naughton is there is getting the opposition’s Lobb/Jones versus their Buku.

They’ve only played together in two finals together and in 2022 Darcy had played about five games.

We didn’t lose the final this year because Naughton was forward. We lost because we got smashed out of the middle. Replacing Naughton (who actually hit the scoreboard) with a small would have done nothing or made it worse.

To the extent you can blame the KPF situation for the result, JUH standing there like a log and not competing is the obvious reason. That’s not fixed by replacing Naughton.

As for moving him back, we already have two players playing his best position there extremely well, and Lloyd expressly said he would drop Lobb to do it, which is the point.

 

[Golden_6]

Naughton is no longer a high flying contested marking forward. He's a CHF workhorse that gets involved around the ground. He was looking superb in that role until injury derailed his season a little. He was subbed off 3 times after that due to the knee, concussion and then struggling a little.

In all that, he still kicked multiple goals in 5 of the last 7 games. If we retain all of Naughton, JUH & Darcy, it's clear that this is best path forward for him. We've seen guys like Richo and more recently Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

maintain the effectiveness of a big time key forward whilst not operating within the 50m arc.

 

[Bulldogger]

The difference for Darcy or JUH if Naughton is there is getting the opposition’s Lobb/Jones versus their Buku.

Which is completely negligible. No other team plays a defender as poor as Buku Khamis, and changing a matchup is trivial. Direct opponents aren't even nearly as relevant as they used to be in the era of zone defence.

We didn’t lose the final this year because Naughton was forward. We lost because we got smashed out of the middle. Replacing Naughton (who actually hit the scoreboard) with a small would have done nothing or made it worse.

Absolute nonsense and you have zero data to back that up.

All year we have had the problem where too many players are jumping for the same ball. You cannot say taking one of those players out would have "done nothing".

Which teams from the past 10 years have won a Premiership playing three key forwards? I can think of maybe Hawthorn with Franklin, Roughead and Gunston, but those three as a trio were far better and more flexible than what we're playing with right now. Every other flag winner has two at best, and often they're just role players. Who do you think played a bigger role in Collingwood's flag, Mason Cox or any one of Hill/Elliott/McCreery? Hint: Look at who won the Norm Smith.

Naughton at the very least should've been tried as a defender for an extended period at some point in the past 5 years. Yeah things look alright now with Jones and Lobb, but not that long ago it was Gardner and Keath, or some combination involving Zaine Cordy or Lewis Young. It is completely ridiculous that the coach decided to deploy Josh Bruce in defence over Naughton.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Which is completely negligible. No other team plays a defender as poor as Buku Khamis, and changing a matchup is trivial. Direct opponents aren't even nearly as relevant as they used to be in the era of zone defence.


Absolute nonsense and you have zero data to back that up.

All year we have had the problem where too many players are jumping for the same ball. You cannot say taking one of those players out would have "done nothing".

Which teams from the past 10 years have won a Premiership playing three key forwards? I can think of maybe Hawthorn with Franklin, Roughead and Gunston, but those three as a trio were far better and more flexible than what we're playing with right now. Every other flag winner has two at best, and often they're just role players. Who do you think played a bigger role in Collingwood's flag, Mason Cox or any one of Hill/Elliott/McCreery? Hint: Look at who won the Norm Smith.

Naughton at the very least should've been tried as a defender for an extended period at some point in the past 5 years. Yeah things look alright now with Jones and Lobb, but not that long ago it was Gardner and Keath, or some combination involving Zaine Cordy or Lewis Young. It is completely ridiculous that the coach decided to deploy Josh Bruce in defence over Naughton.

You seriously need to get some air.

As for “you have no data to support that” (despite the fact your two rants are entirely dubious opinion supported by zero data), Naughton has gone at 1.5 goals a game this year playing up the ground after averaging over 2 in previous years, so the small that replaces him needs to at least match that (and his pressure) or everyone else needs to take up the slack.

Don’t think we’re getting that from Arty.

 

[stefoid]

Dont see how you can come back from a knee like that and give it 100% - he would have been ginger.

 

[go the dogs]

Would love him to be our Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

next season. Build his tank and work defenders all over the ground and catch them out on the way back. Even have him watch footage of prime Nick Riewoldt

 

[Bulldogger]

You seriously need to get some air.

As for “you have no data to support that” (despite the fact your two rants are entirely dubious opinion supported by zero data), Naughton has gone at 1.5 goals a game this year playing up the ground after averaging over 2 in previous years, so the small that replaces him needs to at least match that (and his pressure) or everyone else needs to take up the slack.

Don’t think we’re getting that from Arty.

I never attempted to frame "moving Naughton to defence would definitely improve us" as a fact, unlike you with:

"Replacing Naughton (who actually hit the scoreboard) with a small would have done nothing or made it worse.".

You have no way of knowing this, and zero data to back it up.
The main data I'm focused on is the make-up of the Premiership winning forward lines, something our current forward line setup is extremely alien to.

 

[Anja_Nees]

I never attempted to frame "moving Naughton to defence would definitely improve us" as a fact, unlike you with:

"Replacing Naughton (who actually hit the scoreboard) with a small would have done nothing or made it worse.".

You have no way of knowing this, and zero data to back it up.
The main data I'm focused on is the make-up of the Premiership winning forward lines, something our current forward line setup is extremely alien to.

You haven’t cited one bit of data. Your posts are entirely your own opinion and nothing else.

Which small could have taken Naughton’s place in the forward line this season and improved us? Seriously, which one would have kicked as many goals from as many games and matched his pressure (leaving aside marks for a moment).

If you do not have an answer, then you have your answer.

 

[Bulldogger]

You haven’t cited one bit of data. Your posts are entirely your own opinion and nothing else.

Which small could have taken Naughton’s place in the forward line this season and improved us? Seriously, which one would have kicked as many goals from as many games and matched his pressure (leaving aside marks for a moment).

If you do not have an answer, then you have your answer.

Data doesn't exclusively come in the form of numerical statistics, Einstein. I cited Collingwood last year as a perfect example of a Premiership-winning forward line driven primarily by small forwards. This immediately dispels the ridiculous claim that the mere idea of removing Naughton from the forward line either does nothing or makes it worse.

There is more to football than what appears to be the scope of your understanding. Just because Naughton has a pretty decent goalscoring record does not necessarily mean we are guaranteed to play better with him up forward, especially when playing a forward line far taller and more marking-driven than all the Premiership winning forward lines from the last 10 years.

Also, the only claim I made is that Naughton simply should've been given an extended run in defence at some point in the last 5 years. It appears you are conflating this statement with wanting him in the forward line now. I suggest proof-reading posts before replying.

 

[HeadofSelectionCommittee]

I've been on the fence about swinging Naughton back again but maybe in 2026 or so when Jones is closer to finishing and Croft has matured maybe we could have Lobb Naughton in the backline and have 3 tall forwards of Darcy, Jamarra and Croft.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Data doesn't exclusively come in the form of numerical statistics, Einstein. I cited Collingwood last year as a perfect example of a Premiership-winning forward line driven primarily by small forwards. This immediately dispels the ridiculous claim that the mere idea of removing Naughton from the forward line either does nothing or makes it worse.

There is more to football than what appears to be the scope of your understanding. Just because Naughton has a pretty decent goalscoring record does not necessarily mean we are guaranteed to play better with him up forward, especially when playing a forward line far taller and more marking-driven than all the Premiership winning forward lines from the last 10 years.

Also, the only claim I made is that Naughton simply should've been given an extended run in defence at some point in the last 5 years. It appears you are conflating this statement with wanting him in the forward line now. I suggest proof-reading posts before replying.

I tried reading them but you can’t sustain a line of argument or articulate a coherent thought.

Your opinion seems to be that we would have been better off shifting Naughton back (and therefore omitting one of the backs who generally performed well all season) and playing Arty Jones or Charlie Clarke (the only two small forwards available not already getting a game) in his place.

You hedge your trash opinion by saying we could just do it for five games, like that would have no consequences.

Hurry up and apply for the West Coast gig before they fill it

PS Collingwood had Mihocek, Cox and Frampton (replacing McStay) forward.