Toast Welcome to the Club Aaron Naughty Naughton

[Bulldogger]

Your opinion seems to be that we would have been better off shifting Naughton back

You can't read. Hopeless.

 

[Anja_Nees]

You can't read. Hopeless.

Yeah sorry pal but it’s pretty obvious you’re trying to take your bat and ball home because your opinions don’t stack up.

I won’t get in your way. This is some of the worst argued drivel I have seen on this site.

 

[Bulldogger]

Yeah sorry pal but it’s pretty obvious you’re trying to take your bat and ball home because your opinions don’t stack up.

I won’t get in your way. This is some of the worst argued drivel I have seen on this site.

You've been on this site for 23 years and still can't comprehend a fairly simple post. Pretty embarrassing for you mate.

 

[Mutt]

Anja_Nees and Bulldogger - enough of the bickering.

 

[TiAn_]

Which is completely negligible. No other team plays a defender as poor as Buku Khamis, and changing a matchup is trivial. Direct opponents aren't even nearly as relevant as they used to be in the era of zone defence.


Absolute nonsense and you have zero data to back that up.

All year we have had the problem where too many players are jumping for the same ball. You cannot say taking one of those players out would have "done nothing".

Which teams from the past 10 years have won a Premiership playing three key forwards? I can think of maybe Hawthorn with Franklin, Roughead and Gunston, but those three as a trio were far better and more flexible than what we're playing with right now. Every other flag winner has two at best, and often they're just role players. Who do you think played a bigger role in Collingwood's flag, Mason Cox or any one of Hill/Elliott/McCreery? Hint: Look at who won the Norm Smith.

Naughton at the very least should've been tried as a defender for an extended period at some point in the past 5 years. Yeah things look alright now with Jones and Lobb, but not that long ago it was Gardner and Keath, or some combination involving Zaine Cordy or Lewis Young. It is completely ridiculous that the coach decided to deploy Josh Bruce in defence over Naughton.

Between 2019-2023 Naughton kicked 189 goals. Out next best was Bont with 100. There’s a saying about robbing Peter to pay Paul.

BTW Sydney are top of the ladder and in a prelim playing McDonald, Amartey and McLean forward. The Giants team they pipped was playing Hogan, Cadman and Keeffe forward. Brisbane beat Carlton with Daniher, Hipwood and Morris forward… Tigs won a flag playing Riewoldt, Lynch, Soldo & Nankervis. Eagles with Kennedy, Darling, Vardy & Lycett. Cats in 2022 had Gary Rohan as a poor man’s Naughton next to Hawkins and Cameron. They’re playing Cameron, Neale and Henry as tall forwards this year, etc.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Between 2019-2023 Naughton kicked 189 goals. Out next best was Bont with 100. There’s a saying about robbing Peter to pay Paul.

BTW Sydney are top of the ladder and in a prelim playing McDonald, Amartey and McLean forward. The Giants team they pipped was playing Hogan, Cadman and Keeffe forward. Brisbane beat Carlton with Daniher, Hipwood and Morris forward… Tigs won a flag playing Riewoldt, Lynch, Soldo & Nankervis. Eagles with Kennedy, Darling, Vardy & Lycett. Cats in 2022 had Gary Rohan as a poor man’s Naughton next to Hawkins and Cameron. They’re playing Cameron, Neale and Henry as tall forwards this year, etc.

Yeah the idea that no premiership sides have three tall forwards is laughable.

Darcy is a backup ruckman and almost all of them have at least two talls and a resting ruck. He’s just far more capable when he’s forward than Cox, Vardy etc.

 

[TiAn_]

Yeah the idea that no premiership sides have three tall forwards is laughable.

Darcy is a backup ruckman and almost all of them have at least two talls and a resting ruck. He’s just far more capable when he’s forward than Cox, Vardy etc.

Yeah even those Hawks sides after Buddy left still had Hale as resting ruck and sometimes Schoenmakers as well, next to Roughy and Gunston.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Yeah even those Hawks sides after Buddy left still had Hale as resting ruck and sometimes Schoenmakers as well, next to Roughy and Gunston.

Plus Big Boy who clunked a few.

Gee did any small forwards even play?

 

[Bulldogger]

Between 2019-2023 Naughton kicked 189 goals. Out next best was Bont with 100. There’s a saying about robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The problem with this argument is that you're holding the player to the club's standards.
Who cares if Naughton is our leading scorer over the past 5 years? We have only won a final in a single one of those years. Naughton's output should really be compared with Jeremy Cameron, Josh Kennedy, Tom Hawkins, Jack Riewoldt, Tom Lynch, not the next best goal kicker at the Bulldogs.

BTW Sydney are top of the ladder and in a prelim playing McDonald, Amartey and McLean forward. The Giants team they pipped was playing Hogan, Cadman and Keeffe forward. Brisbane beat Carlton with Daniher, Hipwood and Morris forward… Tigs won a flag playing Riewoldt, Lynch, Soldo & Nankervis. Eagles with Kennedy, Darling, Vardy & Lycett. Cats in 2022 had Gary Rohan as a poor man’s Naughton next to Hawkins and Cameron. They’re playing Cameron, Neale and Henry as tall forwards this year, etc.

Firstly, why are you referencing teams that have not won flags recently? Who cares. You don't win a trophy for finishing top of the ladder.
Secondly, I am not necessarily saying it's wrong to play three tall forwards. As a matter of fact, in the "Changes Required" thread, I suggested playing Darcy and Ugle-Hagan as the two main tall forwards with English floating as the third tall. This shares almost 1/1 parity with your Sydney example. But then you're citing Richmond with Soldo and Nankervis, which doesn't make much sense because they were both pure ruckmen. Vardy and Lycett? Give me a break. Rohan a poor man's Naughton? He's a completely different player. Oliver Henry? You consider this 189cm guy to be a "tall forward"?

The problem is that the current Bulldogs forward setup is terrible, and one of the reasons is because there are too many players going for the same mark. It is perfectly fair to suggest replacing one of those talls with a smaller crumbing player could produce better results, and it is ridiculous to claim that moving Naughton back could only worsen the forward line. Such a claim cannot be backed up by good sense or logic, it is simply ridiculous.

 

[Dogsman16]

If I had to move a key forward out (and it’s a ridiculous concept based on one final where our mids got destroyed), JUH would be first to go.

Naughton can still have really good games despite not hitting the scoreboard (the latest swans game being a great example). 10 score involvements (3 more than any other player) shows he has different avenues to contribute.

Meanwhile If JUH isn’t scoring goals then he becomes a liability. His goal kicking is far worse, he often isn’t taking the best defender which still goes to Naughton, he’s provides less defensive impact and has nowhere near the flexibility that Naughton has to play up the ground or in a different position.

 

[Struggle]

We didn't even use 3 talls at the same time for most of the final. In the first half there was always one rotating via the bench or ruck

It's just the standard easy media content from people who don't watch our games. The issue is with our small forwards who cannot crumb, find easy ball on the flanks or finish when they get the chance as well as us going away from our strengths that had worked all season to try and take away the hawks strength in their run and spread. We still couldn't do it with the extra small

Naughton went at a goal assist per game. He had 2 less over the season than Darcy, Weightman and JUH combined. 2nd in the team behind Bont

 

[TiAn_]

The problem with this argument is that you're holding the player to the club's standards.

Ah no, we’re talking about a player that is an objectively good forward. Including this year. He’s gone at 2 goals a game across the last 4 years.

Who cares if Naughton is our leading scorer over the past 5 years?

Seems pretty relevant to an argument about not playing him in the forward line.

We have only won a final in a single one of those years.

Guess we shouldn’t play Bont in the midfield either, or Dale at half back, etc.

Naughton's output should really be compared with Jeremy Cameron, Josh Kennedy, Tom Hawkins, Jack Riewoldt, Tom Lynch, not the next best goal kicker at the Bulldogs.

Yeah mate makes sense since every team has a key forward on track to kick 800 career goals like Riewoldt, Hawkins, Kennedy and Cameron. If he’s not doing that then just pack it in.

Firstly, why are you referencing teams that have not won flags recently? Who cares. You don't win a trophy for finishing top of the ladder.

Literally 4/6 teams still playing finals this year. I forgot the Hawks with Chol, Dear and Gunston. And I referenced flag sides, but we’ll get to that.

Secondly, I am not necessarily saying it's wrong to play three tall forwards. As a matter of fact, in the "Changes Required" thread, I suggested playing Darcy and Ugle-Hagan as the two main tall forwards with English floating as the third tall. This shares almost 1/1 parity with your Sydney example.

No it doesn’t. Sydney have McDonald, Amartey and McLean forward/ruck with Grundy first ruck. We’d have one tall less than them.

But then you're citing Richmond with Soldo and Nankervis, which doesn't make much sense because they were both pure ruckmen. Vardy and Lycett? Give me a break.

Soldo, Vardy and Hale all played forward and relief ruck. It’s the same role that Darcy plays now. All those PREMIERSHIP sides played 2 KPFs, a forward/ruck and ruckman. Precisely the same as we do now.

Rohan a poor man's Naughton? He's a completely different player.

He was a low disposal winning third tall forward. You can split hairs and call him a “tall medium” if you want, I don’t care.

Oliver Henry? You consider this 189cm guy to be a "tall forward"?

As above, he’s a third tall forward that averaged the same pressure acts and tackles as Naughts this year. But you can call him whatever you like.

The problem is that the current Bulldogs forward setup is terrible, and one of the reasons is because there are too many players going for the same mark.

Got any data to support “too many players going for the same mark”? We were second in Points For this year and lead the league in shots at goal, how would that be the case if our forward line was “terrible”? Jamarra, Naughton and Darcy kicked 116 goals this year even missing a combined 9 games. How is that return terrible?

It is perfectly fair to suggest replacing one of those talls with a smaller crumbing player could produce better results,

Sure, conceptually, but which smaller crumbing player is replacing Naughton and producing better results? Arthur Jones? Charlie Clarke? Do you honestly think that swap would have made our forward line better this year? Wild.

and it is ridiculous to claim that moving Naughton back could only worsen the forward line.

Ridiculous is claiming the second highest scoring forward line in the comp is “terrible”. It’s entirely reasonable to suggest that our forward line would likely be worse if you removed Aaron Naughton and replaced him with one of our VFL small forwards this year.

Such a claim cannot be backed up by good sense or logic, it is simply ridiculous.

lol righto mate.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Ah no, we’re talking about a player that is an objectively good forward. Including this year. He’s gone at 2 goals a game across the last 4 years.



Seems pretty relevant to an argument about not playing him in the forward line.



Guess we shouldn’t play Bont in the midfield either, or Dale at half back, etc.



Yeah mate makes sense since every team has a key forward on track to kick 800 career goals like Riewoldt, Hawkins, Kennedy and Cameron. If he’s not doing that then just pack it in.



Literally 4/6 teams still playing finals this year. I forgot the Hawks with Chol, Dear and Gunston. And I referenced flag sides, but we’ll get to that.



No it doesn’t. Sydney have McDonald, Amartey and McLean forward/ruck with Grundy first ruck. We’d have one tall less than them.



Soldo, Vardy and Hale all played forward and relief ruck. It’s the same role that Darcy plays now. All those PREMIERSHIP sides played 2 KPFs, a forward/ruck and ruckman. Precisely the same as we do now.



He was a low disposal winning third tall forward. You can split hairs and call him a “tall medium” if you want, I don’t care.



As above, he’s a third tall forward that averaged the same pressure acts and tackles as Naughts this year. But you can call him whatever you like.



Got any data to support “too many players going for the same mark”? We were second in Points For this year and lead the league in shots at goal, how would that be the case if our forward line was “terrible”? Jamarra, Naughton and Darcy kicked 116 goals this year even missing a combined 9 games. How is that return terrible?



Sure, conceptually, but which smaller crumbing player is replacing Naughton and producing better results? Arthur Jones? Charlie Clarke? Do you honestly think that swap would have made our forward line better this year? Wild.



Ridiculous is claiming the second highest scoring forward line in the comp is “terrible”. It’s entirely reasonable to suggest that our forward line would likely be worse if you removed Aaron Naughton and replaced him with one of our VFL small forwards this year.



lol righto mate.

Doing the lord’s work.

 

[TiAn_]

Doing the lord’s work.

 

[Bulldogger]

Ah no, we’re talking about a player that is an objectively good forward. Including this year. He’s gone at 2 goals a game across the last 4 years.

Daniel Menzel averaged 2 goals a game for three seasons before Geelong delisted him.
Crazy how some people still think goal averages alone dictate whether or not somebody is an "objectively good forward" in the modern game.

Seems pretty relevant to an argument about not playing him in the forward line.

Guess we shouldn’t play Bont in the midfield either, or Dale at half back, etc.

Your own inane logic can be used against you here.

Dale was one of our most prolific forwards in 2019, and was averaging 3+ goals a game at the back end of the year. Clearly it must be wrong to remove him from the forward line.

Yeah mate makes sense since every team has a key forward on track to kick 800 career goals like Riewoldt, Hawkins, Kennedy and Cameron. If he’s not doing that then just pack it in.

That is simply the benchmark for success, champ.

Literally 4/6 teams still playing finals this year. I forgot the Hawks with Chol, Dear and Gunston. And I referenced flag sides, but we’ll get to that.

No it doesn’t. Sydney have McDonald, Amartey and McLean forward/ruck with Grundy first ruck. We’d have one tall less than them.

Soldo, Vardy and Hale all played forward and relief ruck. It’s the same role that Darcy plays now. All those PREMIERSHIP sides played 2 KPFs, a forward/ruck and ruckman. Precisely the same as we do now.

He was a low disposal winning third tall forward. You can split hairs and call him a “tall medium” if you want, I don’t care.

As above, he’s a third tall forward that averaged the same pressure acts and tackles as Naughts this year. But you can call him whatever you like.

All these examples are complete and utter nonsense. The fact that you're even counting pure ruckmen as "tall forwards" because they might rest there occasionally is inane and ridiculous. Might as well count Rory Lobb as a forward while we're at it, he played there multiple times this season. How about Ben Hudson too? Only ever played in the ruck, but hey I think he kicked a couple of goals a season, clearly he's a tall forward just like Ivan Soldo.

Attempting to pass Rohan off as someone who plays like Naughton is telling to say the least.
Trying to claim Oliver Henry as a tall forward is just desperation.

Got any data to support “too many players going for the same mark”? We were second in Points For this year and lead the league in shots at goal, how would that be the case if our forward line was “terrible”? Jamarra, Naughton and Darcy kicked 116 goals this year even missing a combined 9 games. How is that return terrible?

People like you might feel inclined to hyperfocus on numerical stats, but I care more for performance in big games, and breaking down why we continually lose enough games to miss top 4.

Given you think Gary Rohan plays the same role as Naughton, perhaps it's no surprise you haven't made the same observations many others have made about our forwards.

Sure, conceptually, but which smaller crumbing player is replacing Naughton and producing better results? Arthur Jones? Charlie Clarke? Do you honestly think that swap would have made our forward line better this year? Wild.

This is just arguing in bad faith, which is to be expected from somebody desperate.
Since when was it ever insinuated Naughton must be replaced by one of the existing reserve forwards on our list? When was it even insinuated that Naughton must be replaced at all? I simply suggested he should've been trialed as a forward at some point in the last 5 years. You are running on a tangent to cope with your weak arguments.

Ridiculous is claiming the second highest scoring forward line in the comp is “terrible”. It’s entirely reasonable to suggest that our forward line would likely be worse if you removed Aaron Naughton and replaced him with one of our VFL small forwards this year.

Which I never did.
Clearly reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Truly hopeless.

 

[The Inbetweener]

If Mac Andrew is worth $1.3M then I’m pretty happy to have Naughton locked away at $900k per year or there abouts for the rest of his career.

 

[TiAn_]

Daniel Menzel averaged 2 goals a game for three seasons before Geelong delisted him.
Crazy how some people still think goal averages alone dictate whether or not somebody is an "objectively good forward" in the modern game.

lol Daniel Menzel! His career ended because he did his ACL 4 times and could barely move! Since you want to be a complete dullard about it:

• Across the 22-23 seasons, Naughton kicked 95 goals and laid 106 tackles. The only player to exceed his totals for both was Charlie Cameron.
• He did the above while averaging 1.92 contested marks across his career as a forward.
• Last year he was 9th in the league for goal assists (11th average). 1st for goal assists among key forwards (1st), 7th in the league for contested marks (16th). 2nd among key forwards (9th).
• This year he lead all key forwards for total Goal Assists, not just average, even though he missed 3 games and was subbed out before half time of 3 others. He has the most goal assists of any key forward across 2023-24.
• He kicks goals, takes contested marks, tackles and applies pressure and sets up the other forwards. He’s objectively good.

Your own inane logic can be used against you here.

Dale was one of our most prolific forwards in 2019, and was averaging 3+ goals a game at the back end of the year. Clearly it must be wrong to remove him from the forward line.

Yeah mate, Dale having a lone six week purple patch in 6 years as a forward whilst otherwise battling to get games is totally comparable to Naughton leading our forward line and kicking 226 goals in his 6 years as a forward. Another cracker of a comparison.

That is simply the benchmark for success, champ.

Ending your dumbest point (that’s a fierce competition) with a “champ” is a pisser.

All these examples are complete and utter nonsense. The fact that you're even counting pure ruckmen as "tall forwards" because they might rest there occasionally is inane and ridiculous.

They were tall, they played forward and they rucked. That is what Darcy does. You made a dumb argument, it happens.

Might as well count Rory Lobb as a forward while we're at it, he played there multiple times this season.

Wot?

How about Ben Hudson too? Only ever played in the ruck, but hey I think he kicked a couple of goals a season, clearly he's a tall forward just like Ivan Soldo.

Soldo certainly didn’t play in defence when he wasn’t in the ruck… So now you’re splitting hairs over how much time one of the litany of forward/rucks and third tall forwards I pointed out spent forward v on the bench? This is going well for you.

Attempting to pass Rohan off as someone who plays like Naughton is telling to say the least.
Trying to claim Oliver Henry as a tall forward is just desperation.

What role do those two play, then? Are they small forwards? What are you arguing?

People like you might feel inclined to hyperfocus on numerical stats, but I care more for performance in big games, and breaking down why we continually lose enough games to miss top 4.

This is hilarious after you repeatedly harangued another poster about “not having any data” to support their position.

Given you think Gary Rohan plays the same role as Naughton, perhaps it's no surprise you haven't made the same observations many others have made about our forwards.

I’m going to back in the 4 AFL coaches that have their team through to at least the second week of finals this year over a poster that is a gibberish machine.

This is just arguing in bad faith, which is to be expected from somebody desperate.

lol

Since when was it ever insinuated Naughton must be replaced by one of the existing reserve forwards on our list? When was it even insinuated that Naughton must be replaced at all? I simply suggested he should've been trialed as a forward at some point in the last 5 years. You are running on a tangent to cope with your weak arguments.

Haha you’re actually arguing that thin air would be a better than Naughton. Amazing. Might be problematic with all the 6-6-6 free kicks we’d give away but you’re clearly a maverick. Email Bev ASAP.

Which I never did.
Clearly reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Truly hopeless.

Ok, Truly.

 

[Unorth]

When Marra is offered a deal we can’t match in a couple of years, Naughts can go back to playing closer to goals and we’ll get 60 out of him.

We’ve spent this season finding somewhere else for Naughts to maximise Marra and Darcy and he’s done so a bit thanklessly. I’m glad he’s not the type to whinge about being played in a different position.

 

[Freshwater]

When Marra is offered a deal we can’t match in a couple of years, Naughts can go back to playing closer to goals and we’ll get 60 out of him.

We’ve spent this season finding somewhere else for Naughts to maximise Marra and Darcy and he’s done so a bit thanklessly. I’m glad he’s not the type to whinge about being played in a different position.

You are right, I reckon Naughton is a ripper. Selfless, loyal, team first, which is hard to find in the big alpha forward.

 

[Bulldogger]

lol Daniel Menzel! His career ended because he did his ACL 4 times and could barely move! Since you want to be a complete dullard about it:

• Across the 22-23 seasons, Naughton kicked 95 goals and laid 106 tackles. The only player to exceed his totals for both was Charlie Cameron.
• He did the above while averaging 1.92 contested marks across his career as a forward.
• Last year he was 9th in the league for goal assists (11th average). 1st for goal assists among key forwards (1st), 7th in the league for contested marks (16th). 2nd among key forwards (9th).
• This year he lead all key forwards for total Goal Assists, not just average, even though he missed 3 games and was subbed out before half time of 3 others. He has the most goal assists of any key forward across 2023-24.
• He kicks goals, takes contested marks, tackles and applies pressure and sets up the other forwards. He’s objectively good.

Yeah mate, Dale having a lone six week purple patch in 6 years as a forward whilst otherwise battling to get games is totally comparable to Naughton leading our forward line and kicking 226 goals in his 6 years as a forward. Another cracker of a comparison.



Ending your dumbest point (that’s a fierce competition) with a “champ” is a pisser.



They were tall, they played forward and they rucked. That is what Darcy does. You made a dumb argument, it happens.



Wot?



Soldo certainly didn’t play in defence when he wasn’t in the ruck… So now you’re splitting hairs over how much time one of the litany of forward/rucks and third tall forwards I pointed out spent forward v on the bench? This is going well for you.



What role do those two play, then? Are they small forwards? What are you arguing?



This is hilarious after you repeatedly harangued another poster about “not having any data” to support their position.



I’m going to back in the 4 AFL coaches that have their team through to at least the second week of finals this year over a poster that is a gibberish machine.



lol



Haha you’re actually arguing that thin air would be a better than Naughton. Amazing. Might be problematic with all the 6-6-6 free kicks we’d give away but you’re clearly a maverick. Email Bev ASAP.



Ok, Truly.

Imagine digging your heels this much over the mere suggestion that Naughton should've been trialed in defence at least once over the last 5 years. Then you're running with all kinds of embarrassing mental gymnastics, endless strawman and utterly ridiculous statements like claiming Gary Rohan plays the same type of game as Naughton, and that Toby Nankervis and Ivan Soldo count as tall forwards because they might occasionally rest there. You are completely and utterly hopeless.

Honestly, your entire argument falls apart once it's correctly pointed out that English himself counts as a tall forward through your line of reasoning. We aren't playing three tall forwards, we're actually playing four, and all of them are marking forwards.

You embarrassingly tried to bring up Geelong and Hawthorn as examples of forward lines with 3+ tall """fowards""". The key difference is a player like Jeremy Cameron is far more than just a marking target. Even at a height of 196cm, he is a far better crumbing forward than any "crumber" on our list, which makes him infinitely more flexible as a footballer than any of our tall or small forwards. The exact same could be said about Franklin and Roughead at Hawthorn. These are players who have far more to their game than just their capacity to take a mark.

You even tried to claim Billy Frampton as one of Collingwood's key forwards as an example to follow. This is a guy who got two touches in the Grand Final, and was effectively playing a tagging role on a defender. How is he even remotely comparable to Ugle-Hagan, Naughton, Darcy and English?

I’m going to back in the 4 AFL coaches that have their team through to at least the second week of finals this year over a poster that is a gibberish machine.

Back them? Regarding what? Do you think there is a single coach in the AFL who would be foolish enough to suggest Gary Rohan plays the same type of game Aaron Naughton does?

This is hilarious after you repeatedly harangued another poster about “not having any data” to support their position.

Once again, people like you appear to believe data can only come in the form of numerical statistics.

As for the Daniel Menzel example, that was simply to highlight the ridiculousness of using goal averages alone to measure the quality of a forward, which you initially did with Naughton.
As for all the other stats you've pulled out to highlight Naughton's output as a forward, I never once denied he can bring a lot to the table as a forward. It's just not a clear-cut open and shut case that he makes us better in the forward line compared to playing in the backline, which is why I'm saying he should've been trialed in defence at some point. I am highlighting trialed in bold because it appears you and the other poster have had repeated difficulties grasping this part of my post, and continue to misconstrue what I'm actually saying on this topic.

 

[TiAn_]

Imagine digging your heels this much over the mere suggestion that Naughton should've been trialed in defence at least once over the last 5 years. Then you're running with all kinds of embarrassing mental gymnastics, endless strawman and utterly ridiculous statements like claiming Gary Rohan plays the same type of game as Naughton, and that Toby Nankervis and Ivan Soldo count as tall forwards because they might occasionally rest there. You are completely and utterly hopeless.

Honestly, your entire argument falls apart once it's correctly pointed out that English himself counts as a tall forward through your line of reasoning. We aren't playing three tall forwards, we're actually playing four, and all of them are marking forwards.

You embarrassingly tried to bring up Geelong and Hawthorn as examples of forward lines with 3+ tall """fowards""". The key difference is a player like Jeremy Cameron is far more than just a marking target. Even at a height of 196cm, he is a far better crumbing forward than any "crumber" on our list, which makes him infinitely more flexible as a footballer than any of our tall or small forwards. The exact same could be said about Franklin and Roughead at Hawthorn. These are players who have far more to their game than just their capacity to take a mark.

You even tried to claim Billy Frampton as one of Collingwood's key forwards as an example to follow. This is a guy who got two touches in the Grand Final, and was effectively playing a tagging role on a defender. How is he even remotely comparable to Ugle-Hagan, Naughton, Darcy and English?


Back them? Regarding what? Do you think there is a single coach in the AFL who would be foolish enough to suggest Gary Rohan plays the same type of game Aaron Naughton does?


Once again, people like you appear to believe data can only come in the form of numerical statistics.

As for the Daniel Menzel example, that was simply to highlight the ridiculousness of using goal averages alone to measure the quality of a forward, which you initially did with Naughton.
As for all the other stats you've pulled out to highlight Naughton's output as a forward, I never once denied he can bring a lot to the table as a forward. It's just not a clear-cut open and shut case that he makes us better in the forward line compared to playing in the backline, which is why I'm saying he should've been trialed in defence at some point. I am highlighting trialed in bold because it appears you and the other poster have had repeated difficulties grasping this part of my post, and continue to misconstrue what I'm actually saying on this topic.

Why trial him in defence? He spent a whole season there. We don’t need a trial period. Even as a permanent move, it wouldn’t have changed one iota about why we lost last week, which was the original point that triggered you to go on your rants.

No one is misconstruing your posts. You chose to say our second highest scoring forward line in the comp is “terrible” and blame Naughton for our finals record and make claims about tall forward structures today and in the past that were obviously and demonstrably wrong. I took the time across multiple posts to respond to each of your often incoherent arguments in turn. Now you’re just repeating yourself and doubling down on the same nonsense.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Man both you too are so strong either way.

I probably like many on here think its all depends on what best for the team. There are pro's and cons for both. I'm actually a believer in two talls plus Cody Weightman

3

Cody Weightman

Age

23

Ht

179cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.5

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.0

4star

D

6.5

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

6.5

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.0

4star

is enough up forward. Pies won with Mihocheck as their main foward.

I know one thing, if Jones goes down I would prefer a current forward either Naughton or JUH to go back. I would not go to Gardiner and not sure JOH is ready or good enough yet. Actually wouldn't hurt JUH to spend a year in the backline for his development to work his backside off and get more involved each week.

 

[TiAn_]

Oh that was that Antares bloke wasn’t it lol

 

[Anja_Nees]

Man both you too are so strong either way.

I probably like many on here think its all depends on what best for the team. There are pro's and cons for both. I'm actually a believer in two talls plus Cody Weightman is enough up forward. Pies won with Mihocheck as their main foward.

I know one thing, if Jones goes down I would prefer a current forward either Naughton or JUH to go back. I would not go to Gardiner and not sure JOH is ready or good enough yet. Actually wouldn't hurt JUH to spend a year in the backline for his development to work his backside off and get more involved each week.

When we have Lobb and Jones there right now, what is the actual need? Lloyd was saying drop Lobb and move Naughton, which is absurd.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Why trial him in defence? He spent a whole season there. We don’t need a trial period. Even as a permanent move, it wouldn’t have changed one iota about why we lost last week, which was the original point that triggered you to go on your rants.

No one is misconstruing your posts. You chose to say our second highest scoring forward line in the comp is “terrible” and blame Naughton for our finals record and make claims about tall forward structures today and in the past that were obviously and demonstrably wrong. I took the time across multiple posts to respond to each of your often incoherent arguments in turn. Now you’re just repeating yourself and doubling down on the same nonsense.

You struggle with basic comprehension. Hopeless.