Game Day Western Bulldogs vs GWS. 7.10 pm StarTrack oval

[Zgope1]

i liked Collins a lot. he had aerial aggression and was clearly trying to position himself unnaturally according to an unfamiliar zoning set up. in terms of ground positioning our zones were extremely aggressive and i think that was for largely educational purposes. Matty Boyd is king of the set up and so i'm not worried in the slightest. When we have older blokes setting up, Collins is definitely a body i'll trust in 8+ games this year.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Agreed. I additionally like his aggressiveness, I don't think that is something that can be taught either.
Collins best football should be in about 6-8 years time, if he does produce very good results before that; it would definitely be a nice bonus

Yeah exactly, we are desperate for KP defenders and we want it bad, so it understandable there is impatience. I thought he looked ok for an 18 year old monster in his first game at the level.

I expect he will play a few games this year, but I don't expect him to be Brian Lake this year or next.

Hell Brian Lake wasn't Brian Lake when he started, he had to change his name first and then mature, that took a few years.

 

[TempleKelvington]

This from Peter Hanlon in the Age. Tongue firmly in cheek but this made me laugh.

GWS

Forced to again ask for patience from their 264 members when their fifth season in the competition is derailed by a list management crisis upon the realisation that most of those really good kids they were given in the first couple of years play for someone else now, and they're left with someone called Harrison Himmelberg who's got worse hair than Callan Ward.

 

[TBOW]

Just watched the game and without going over everything, there were 2 things that stood out to me.

At points in that game we were moving the ball like Hawthorn: lead/mark/turn/kick/repeat.
As much as commentators go on about Hawthorn being an elite kicking team, it is leading and creating space that they are elite at.
They don't need to be elite kicks because they don't often have to pull off tough kicks, and they are never really under immense pressure because they always know that under their system someone will provide them a good option.

We started the game moving the ball that way, but throughout the contest and maybe as a bit of fatigue seeped in we reverted to the run and gun style and even the McCartney era bomb and swarm. It is important that we learn to control the ball with that chip and lead structure as it is the most energy efficient way to control a game of football.

If we can tear a game open with our blitz game and then take the air out of it by playing keepings off, we will go to another level this year.

While I'm on Hawthorn I, another misnomer I feel is often assigned to them is 'team of champions'. I think they are a champion team -probably the best team that I ever seen, but I honestly don't feel that there are too many players on that list that actually impact a game with what I would consider 'star power'. Hodge and Rioli are really the main two, at times maybe Roughead & Burgoyne. The thing with star power is that it is not always reliable - that is why they as a team have such a focus on 'playing their role'.

We have players who are on the path to becoming champions, but as most dogs fans would know (and GWS & GC fans may find out) having champion players is no guarantee of success.
Thankfully under Bev I think we are on our way to becoming a champion team with a handful of champion players.

 

[themightydoggies]

How bad is roughy!! He won't be even in our best 22!!

 

[TBOW]

The other point (which may be somewhat unpopular) is that Stringers conversion is not good enough for a player who wants to do it all himself.

I love his arrogance and confidence but for him to take the next step as a player he needs to know when and how to use his team mates.

People talk about him being the best player in the competition but I think this is a weakness in his game that may hold him and the team back from being all it can be.

He can use his explosive game-breaking brilliance to create a situations where he is gift wrapping goals for his teammates, but instead he is trying to finish everything off himself - often with low percentage (well for most people) attempts.

I'm not saying that he should be dishing off all the time - that can become a problem worse than going for everything; just that he needs to increase his awareness of the players around him and how he can use them.

 

[BallaratBulldog]

Our entire team needs accuracy training. It went throughout the year but perhaps ignored due to us winning and exposed during finals.

 

[Proffessor]

Just watched the game and without going over everything, there were 2 things that stood out to me.

At points in that game we were moving the ball like Hawthorn: lead/mark/turn/kick/repeat.
As much as commentators go on about Hawthorn being an elite kicking team, it is leading and creating space that they are elite at.
They don't need to be elite kicks because they don't often have to pull off tough kicks, and they are never really under immense pressure because they always know that under their system someone will provide them a good option.

We started the game moving the ball that way, but throughout the contest and maybe as a bit of fatigue seeped in we reverted to the run and gun style and even the McCartney era bomb and swarm. It is important that we learn to control the ball with that chip and lead structure as it is the most energy efficient way to control a game of football.

If we can tear a game open with our blitz game and then take the air out of it by playing keepings off, we will go to another level this year.

While I'm on Hawthorn I, another misnomer I feel is often assigned to them is 'team of champions'. I think they are a champion team -probably the best team that I ever seen, but I honestly don't feel that there are too many players on that list that actually impact a game with what I would consider 'star power'. Hodge and Rioli are really the main two, at times maybe Roughead & Burgoyne. The thing with star power is that it is not always reliable - that is why they as a team have such a focus on 'playing their role'.

We have players who are on the path to becoming champions, but as most dogs fans would know (and GWS & GC fans may find out) having champion players is no guarantee of success.
Thankfully under Bev I think we are on our way to becoming a champion team with a handful of champion players.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, although I think you have missed Sam Mitchell who I think is probably still Hawthorn's most important player. The key to Hawthorn's success is not only that they are so good when the game is being played on their terms but they have also had enough quality players in key roles to minimise the damage when it is being played on the oppositions terms and to ensure that these periods are kept to a minimum.

Last year we were pretty good when it was on our terms, and we were able to keep it there for reasonable periods too, but we got hurt a little too easily when our opponents had control.

Hopefully we will improve in this area, and hopefully Hawthorn will go backwards due to some of their departures. I think the loss of Brian Lake will hurt more than most expect for that reason.

 

[stefoid]

The other point (which may be somewhat unpopular) is that Stringers conversion is not good enough for a player who wants to do it all himself.

I love his arrogance and confidence but for him to take the next step as a player he needs to know when and how to use his team mates.

People talk about him being the best player in the competition but I think this is a weakness in his game that may hold him and the team back from being all it can be.

He can use his explosive game-breaking brilliance to create a situations where he is gift wrapping goals for his teammates, but instead he is trying to finish everything off himself - often with low percentage (well for most people) attempts.

I'm not saying that he should be dishing off all the time - that can become a problem worse than going for everything; just that he needs to increase his awareness of the players around him and how he can use them.

But he kicks the low percentage ones. Its his set shots that he should not be passing off that he stuffs up.

Id back him having a ping going flat stick 50m out on the boundary over a set shot 35m dead in front!!

 

[dogwatch]

The other point (which may be somewhat unpopular) is that Stringers conversion is not good enough for a player who wants to do it all himself.

I love his arrogance and confidence but for him to take the next step as a player he needs to know when and how to use his team mates.

People talk about him being the best player in the competition but I think this is a weakness in his game that may hold him and the team back from being all it can be.

He can use his explosive game-breaking brilliance to create a situations where he is gift wrapping goals for his teammates, but instead he is trying to finish everything off himself - often with low percentage (well for most people) attempts.

I'm not saying that he should be dishing off all the time - that can become a problem worse than going for everything; just that he needs to increase his awareness of the players around him and how he can use them.

Not convinced about this.
Firstly, Stringer's 3 goals came in the first half when he was pretty much stationed up forward as our main target. After he'd kicked 3 (and it could easily have been 5) he spent a lot of time in the midfield. Don't know exactly how much but maybe 50%.

If he can kick 3 goals a half then I'd leave him there for nearly the whole game and happily settle for 6 goals a match. I like the fact that he has such self-belief that he goes for goal when he can.

Nonetheless someone else here (Mutt? Mofra?) wrote the other day that Stringer is high on the GA list. I just checked that and he was 2nd in the club for GAs in 2015 (19 GAs, 1 behind Dahl who played 1 more game) and equal highest in GA average (0.9).
That suggests to me that Stringer DOES use his team mates as much as any player in the club.

 

[dogwatch]

Forgot to add a point about inaccuracy (since that was TBOW's first point).
We had 10 players who kicked 10 goals or more in 2015. Stringer was 4th most accurate of them (52.8%). So is he really that bad?

I think what frustrates us is that he gets the impossible goals but misses too many set shots from 35-45 metres. However my recollection is that he was pretty good from set shots in his first couple of years. I'm not yet prepared to write him off as a permanently bad set shot. I reckon he's working on his accuracy all the time (as all forwards must) and there's a good chance it will come back.

 

[JJHunter]

Collins is an 18 year old playing his first game. There was a time when kids playing their first games were not expected to do much, but these days we expect them to hold down fullback from the get go. He might look 35, but that's where it ends. Have to give him some time, the good thing is his size.

I've been staggered by reading the summary on Collins.
Those putting a line through him until the back half of the year based on that game stagger me really.

"He got outmarked by Lobb" - So too did Roughy and Morris in the first house
"He got caught under the ball and marked out the back" - So too did Wood and JJ in the first half.
"His kicks didnt reach team mates on the full" - Need I go through each one of our missed shots for goal, or Morris's two turnovers ?

These were hardly anything that anyone of our players in our side dont do.

Now in regards to Adams I am happy to put a line through him for sometime
I watched him in an intra kick the ball twice straight to an opponents for two scores against.
I watched him also miss a couple fo simpl 20 metre switch kicks.
Added to his disposal in the NAB game he simply has to resolve those issues before being considered.

 

[webbo]

I've been staggered by reading the summary on Collins.
Those putting a line through him until the back half of the year based on that game stagger me really.

"He got outmarked by Lobb" - So too did Roughy and Morris in the first house
"He got caught under the ball and marked out the back" - So too did Wood and JJ in the first half.
"His kicks didnt reach team mates on the full" - Need I go through each one of our missed shots for goal, or Morris's two turnovers ?

These were hardly anything that anyone of our players in our side dont do.

Now in regards to Adams I am happy to put a line through him for sometime
I watched him in an intra kick the ball twice straight to an opponents for two scores against.
I watched him also miss a couple fo simpl 20 metre switch kicks.
Added to his disposal in the NAB game he simply has to resolve those issues before being considered.

You can't preach patience with Collins and then be prepared to put a line through Adams for some time. They've both played their very first games of AFL football. The jump in standard is so large. They both need time to adjust and acclimatise to the environment of the game at this level. Undoubtedly Adams is not the best kick, but also it's not unbelievable to imagine that he was very nervous. We would not have drafted him if his kicking was Auskick level

 

[JJHunter]

You can't preach patience with Collins and then be prepared to put a line through Adams for some time. They've both played their very first games of AFL football. The jump in standard is so large. They both need time to adjust and acclimatise to the environment of the game at this level. Undoubtedly Adams is not the best kick, but also it's not unbelievable to imagine that he was very nervous. We would not have drafted him if his kicking was Auskick level

I am not preaching patience with Collins. Not sure I said that at all.
Im saying that the knocks on his game the other night are ridiculous and he isn't robertson caruso with those mistakes.

Adams mistake are far more fundamental and skill based - something unique to him in regards to our list.
So I am more than happy to say that his skills are not to AFL standard. I have watched him closely and until they are improved he shouldnt play.

I have no vested interest here - if collins kicked like adams Id saying the same thing.

 

[doggies ftw]

I dont think Stringers set shots are that bad. He had the yips for the second half 2014 and first half of 2015 but from memory they were fine after that, and he missed what, 1? set shot on thursday.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

I've been staggered by reading the summary on Collins.
Those putting a line through him until the back half of the year based on that game stagger me really.

"He got outmarked by Lobb" - So too did Roughy and Morris in the first house

I don't think anybody has put a line through Collins. You are seriously overreacting to stuff that wasn't even said.

When I posted that quote about Lobb, I was answering a question as to when Collins was beaten in the GWS game, did you not also read that I said Collins was one of the players I was most impressed by?

Talk about making something out of nothing.

 

[JJHunter]

I don't think anybody has put a line through Collins. You are seriously overreacting to stuff that wasn't even said.

When I posted that quote about Lobb, I was answering a question as to when Collins was beaten in the GWS game, did you not also read that I said Collins was one of the players I was most impressed by?

Talk about making something out of nothing.

There has been posts suggesting Collins was not ready based on what they saw and they don't expect to see him in until the back half of year.

Never suggested u said that - just picking up on all the negative things I'd read through days of posts, re watching the replay and then addressing them together.

 

[dogga91]

What are people's thought on Dal's role this year? Will his production regress with the return of Libba (less mid time?)

I like to think he will still go through there a fair bit as he offers us something a bit different.

 

[Dogsman16]

What are people's thought on Dal's role this year? Will his production regress with the return of Libba (less mid time?)

I like to think he will still go through there a fair bit as he offers us something a bit different.

He's one of our primary inside mids.

He's a mid/forward now in my view. His speed, defensive pressure and tenacity is vital in there.

He starts in there with Bont and Libba and we rotate Macrae, Wallis, Stevens and Picken through amongst others.

 

[LondonBulldog]

I still have faith in Adams. All he needs to do is find his role. He will be the strong, defensive stopper who is good in the air and strong one on one. Yes his kicking has been shocking, yet he will learn to give it off to the runners, like Murphy and JJ and only take short option kicks, like Morris does. So far you see nervous tension, bursting through and kicking anywhere or taking the wrong option.
Yet there is still a lot to like. Time will tell.

 

[dogga91]

He's one of our primary inside mids.

He's a mid/forward now in my view. His speed, defensive pressure and tenacity is vital in there.

He starts in there with Bont and Libba and we rotate Macrae, Wallis, Stevens and Picken through amongst others.

I tend to agree.

I wasn't able to see the game on Thursday night. Did he start in centre bounces/was he around the ball at stoppages?

 

[fronkalicious]

There has been posts suggesting Collins was not ready based on what they saw and they don't expect to see him in until the back half of year.

Never suggested u said that - just picking up on all the negative things I'd read through days of posts, re watching the replay and then addressing them together.

I just don't think he played that well and I don't think he looks ready to beat out hamling and Roberts.

 

[Mofra]

Nonetheless someone else here (Mutt? Mofra?) wrote the other day that Stringer is high on the GA list. I just checked that and he was 2nd in the club for GAs in 2015 (19 GAs, 1 behind Dahl who played 1 more game) and equal highest in GA average (0.9).
That suggests to me that Stringer DOES use his team mates as much as any player in the club.

I noted it the other day but was repeating from another website - he spends a lot of time with Gia who was the competition's elite GA player in his prime.
Stringer has also mentioned in interviews that "it doesn't matter who kicks them" so I don't think he's intentionally selfish when playing deep forward - anyone who kicks 56 goals per year is doing something right, especially considering how many of his contests are 50/50 plays. Stringer is the least of our worries.

 

[TBOW]

Forgot to add a point about inaccuracy (since that was TBOW's first point).
We had 10 players who kicked 10 goals or more in 2015. Stringer was 4th most accurate of them (52.8%). So is he really that bad?

I think what frustrates us is that he gets the impossible goals but misses too many set shots from 35-45 metres. However my recollection is that he was pretty good from set shots in his first couple of years. I'm not yet prepared to write him off as a permanently bad set shot. I reckon he's working on his accuracy all the time (as all forwards must) and there's a good chance it will come back.

Just to clarify on Stringer, I don't really have an issue with his conversion rate or assist rate it's more the way he goes about it.

He reminds me of Nathan Brown where you knew 9/10 times he was going for goal but then he'd dish off a handball running into an open goal to prove that he could share.

At the moment Jakes assists occur when he has gotten himself into trouble or when his teammate is so blatantly open that he can't ignore them.

What I want to see from Jake- which I think he is very exclusively able to do is the Cyril Rioli style assist where he creates something from nothing, draws opponents to him (as he does) but then uses that imbalance to find a teammate who has been cut loose from the defensive press.

Maybe it is not just Jake, but the players around him who need to create these situations?

 

[True Dog]

It never ceases to amaze me the speed of which people make judgements on players (good bad or indifferent).... After one NAB game we've deduced that our back line sucks, Collins is a long way from it and Adams may as well have stayed in Perth because it's closer to where he is to getting a game? Suckers is going to be a star, Hrovat is back and best 22, Stevens is the missing link, Webb will struggle and McLean can't win the rising star or can he, I'm confused....... I know it's Big Footy and we're suppose to make judgments on players at birth (and I take my hat off to those that can and do) but lets just keep our powder dry until we've seen at least 2 NAB games before sounding off like Norf supporters...........