What Carlton could have been..

[iluvparis]

Always laugh at trolls suggesting a Carlton with a Judd-less midfield but a Kennedy and Fev forwardline would have us closer to a premiership.

If Fev is such an integral player why has no one else picked him up?

 

[CrowAboutIt]

Ok stupido here goes:

1: The Judd trade was a no brainer any club in the comp would have done the same and Carlton are better off with Judd .
2: Had no option but to sack Fev ..and their forward line actually became more productive once fev was gone (and Fev was still Fev even after he left)
3: Cotchin and Kruezer was a 50/50 option at the time, and The Jury is still out on whether Cotchin would have been a better fit than Kruezer .
4: Had no choice in trading Jacobs..he wanterd to go home to SA and 'thought his game time would be limited due to Carltons depth of big men.

Carltons list is fine..lets see what eventuates over the next few years before starting stupid and idiotic what ifs .

How is your list fine? Judd is wrecked. You have no future captains because they have all relied on Judd too much. Gibbs has been turned into a cheap-kick scab. You have an injury plagued ruckman. And Jacobs would not have wanted to come home if u had have picked Cotchin over Kruezer because he would have been given more game time.

 

[ExTasDeeMan]

Melbourne picking Watts over Nic Nat

or what if Nic Nat got homesick and left the team to go to WA...

Who knows

 

[iluvparis]

How is your list fine? Judd is wrecked. You have no future captains because they have all relied on Judd too much. Gibbs has been turned into a cheap-kick scab. You have an injury plagued ruckman. And Jacobs would not have wanted to come home if u had have picked Cotchin over Kruezer because he would have been given more game time.

But if Cotchin replaces Judd how does that prevent gibbs from becoming a cheap-kick scab anyway?

 

[TedDougChris]

or what if Nic Nat got homesick and left the team to go to WA...

Who knows

There are lots of variables and lots of clubs out there that haven't got them right... You could make a case for a Dogs premiership recently if we'd had Buddy instead of Griff.

I'm not unhappy with Griff in any way, but the 'What If' scenario is still there....

Like I said, all clubs have these....

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Just imagine what Richmond coud've been right now:

Pav over Fiora
Franklin over Tambling
Beams over Post
LeCras instead of McGuane
Scott Selwood instead of McMahon
Fyfe instead of Griffiths
Barlow instead of Hicks
Birchall instead of JON
Swallow instead of Cleve Hughes
Stokes instead of Casserly
Sam Mitchell instead of Rodan
Stevie J instead of pick 17 for Stafford

B: Newman Grimes Birchall
HB: Deledio Rance Conca
C: A.Swallow Martin S.Selwood
HF: Fyfe Pavlich Franklin
F: Stokes Riewoldt LeCras
Foll: Maric Cotchin S.Mitchell
Int: Barlow Foley Tuck S.Johnson


HNNNNNNNNGGGGGGHHHHHHHH


Every team can do this

 

[watts4ever]

maybe some clubs are better at developing players than other clubs?

 

[Freomaniac]

Every club has these issues, look at Richmond and the Dogs passing up on drafting Buddy Franklin. Freo trading Andrew McLeod for Chris Groom (I think). Melbourne picking Watts over Nic Nat..... People not trusting Judds shoulders would come good. People worried about Selwood injuries...

Every club will have their tales of woe from drafting/trading, it's not an exact science...

That was true but im more gutted trading 1, 20 and 36 for Trent Croad and Luke McPharlin. McPharlin has bee a good player. But Hawks picked luke hodge for pick 1 and Pick 36 was Sam Mitchell. Would love to have Both guys. Then Again you can say that to Freo on many trades.

 

[CrowAboutIt]

But if Cotchin replaces Judd how does that prevent gibbs from becoming a cheap-kick scab anyway?

He would have had a lot more midfield time and wouldn't have relied on Judd to do everythin and expect the cheap kicks

 

[TedDougChris]

That was true but im more gutted trading 1, 20 and 36 for Trent Croad and Luke McPharlin. McPharlin has bee a good player. But Hawks picked luke hodge for pick 1 and Pick 36 was Sam Mitchell. Would love to have Both guys. Then Again you can say that to Freo on many trades.

i think you've done much better in recent years, but every club has these moments....

it's just that richmond, freo and (at the moment) Melbourne seem to have few more than others... and higher profile as well...

You can put up the C Grant at pick 105, Hird at 70/80 odd, Lake at pick 76 or something.... Every club had the chance for those guys.. Several times over... Not to mention players like Cox, Sewell, Boyd, Kirk, Rooke, Jolly, Morris are all rookies....

 

[RichardMarx]

Ok stupido here goes:

1: The Judd trade was a no brainer any club in the comp would have done the same and Carlton are better off with Judd .
2: Had no option but to sack Fev ..and their forward line actually became more productive once fev was gone (and Fev was still Fev even after he left)
3: Cotchin and Kruezer was a 50/50 option at the time, and The Jury is still out on whether Cotchin would have been a better fit than Kruezer .
4: Had no choice in trading Jacobs..he wanterd to go home to SA and 'thought his game time would be limited due to Carltons depth of big men.

Carltons list is fine..lets see what eventuates over the next few years before starting stupid and idiotic what ifs .

Kruezer/Cotchin is the only one you'd really change (and this would have them impacted on Jacobs). If you picked Cotchin, Jacobs would never have requested a trade because he would have been given more opportunity. Wouldn't have missed the 8 with those two running around.

 

[Blues_Man]

He would have had a lot more midfield time and wouldn't have relied on Judd to do everythin and expect the cheap kicks

Stupidity isn't a rare commodity ..so don't worry too much , you aren't all alone in the World .

 

[Lyyynnnchy]

Just imagine what Richmond coud've been right now:

B: Newman Grimes Birchall
HB: Deledio Rance Conca
C: A.Swallow Martin S.Selwood
HF: Fyfe Pavlich Franklin
F: Stokes Riewoldt LeCras
Foll: Maric Cotchin S.Mitchell
Int: Barlow Foley Tuck S.Johnson

Still an average backline

 

[Blaz]

Hindsight is an extraordinary thing and this could be done for all clubs. However I think Carlton's seems like an exceptional circumstance.

Imagine if carlton:

1) Didn't trade for Judd
2) Didn't sack Fev
3) Picked Cotchin instead of Kruezer
4) Didn't trade Jacobs

They could have had:

1) A forward line with Fev and Kennedy
2) A midfield of Cotchin, Murphy, Gibbs, Carrazo, Simpson and pretty sure Dangerfield or Masten
3) Jacobs (leading hit-outs to adv) tapping it to that midfield

Are there any other clubs that in hindsight could have been this good?

I vomited.

 

[Blues_Man]

I vomited.

As much as when your lot picked up Tambling in front of Buddy ?

 

[Monkey King]

Stupid thread. And premature given the list still needs to play itself out. Perhaps better to do this in 5-8 years.


Judd vs JK - I'd shudder to think what we'd be without having recruited Judd when guys like Fev and Stevens would have been our club leaders. Judd's given the Blues 4 years of amazing footy and helped turn the whole club around. Conversely JK, while having loads of talent, has had just the one outstanding season since leaving the club.

Fev - The dude was a cancer. The shit he took to Brisbane shows what a great trade this was for the club. Hendo will do us good for another 7-8 years, while Lucas is still yet to deliver or could yield us a Koby Stevens via trade. We'd definitely be worse of on this front.

Cotchin vs Kreuzer - This season is the first I've looked at Cotchin and preferred him outright over Kreuzer and it just happens to be a year in which the latter's knee was being drained every other week. Not sold on this one as Kreuzer is the most impressive youngster I've seen at the Blues in over 15 years. Cotchin is looking amazing atm though.

Jacobs - The guy wanted to go home and even threatened to go the PSD route when the club said it wanted to hold on to him or at least get real trade value. You act like this was a club decision when it wasn't.


As others have pointed out, you can do the what if with every club. I'm surprised you didn't throw in a Fyfe > Lucas or Darling > Watson somewhere just to spice it up. LOL

 

[Blaz]

As much as when your lot picked up Tambling in front of Buddy ?

Sandra Sully how are ya!

But it does make me sick, it opens up another hindsight, don't think we would have had Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt if we got Buddy, strange thought.

 

[Doss]

I'm actually going to against my natural grain and defend Carlton for a second here.

Getting Judd was not only about buying success overnight. It was probably also seen as a method of getting some clout back- by making a statement, if you will. It's important to remember what a total rabble they were- on field and off- between 2002 and 2007. The club came within a whisper of dying altogether because they were crippled financially, and they were basically completely uncompetitive on field. Around 2006-07, the mire Carlton was in seemed so deep that one couldn't help wonder if they were going to be able to rise out of it. That's where Judd came in- it got the results on the improve instantly, and importantly, it also got the fans' and supporter base's attention.

It's easy in hindsight to say they lost out on the Judd trade, but if you look at it from the point of view of the dire straits Carlton was in prior to 2008, ultimately it was understandable, and justifiable, in that context.

 

[Freomaniac]

i think you've done much better in recent years, but every club has these moments....

it's just that richmond, freo and (at the moment) Melbourne seem to have few more than others... and higher profile as well...

You can put up the C Grant at pick 105, Hird at 70/80 odd, Lake at pick 76 or something.... Every club had the chance for those guys.. Several times over... Not to mention players like Cox, Sewell, Boyd, Kirk, Rooke, Jolly, Morris are all rookies....

That bit is true But Freos regular trading of 1st round picks from 1994-2006 still haunts me.

A couple of examples: Justin Longmuir was Pick 2 in the 1998 draft while Josh carr was pick 12/13. We gave Port 11, 27 and 45 to get Josh Carr after he won a flag with Port in 2004.

2006 was a nasty one as Freo traded Pick 12 and Graham Polak to Richmond for pick 8. Richmond used Pick 12 to Get Jack Riewoldt Which is a Key Forward freo needed now. Instead we Traded Pick 8 and Paul Medhurst to get Chris Tarrant. Sharrod Wellingham was also in the 2006 rookie draft.

Giving Picks 3 and 19 to Brisbane for Des Headland was bad for us in the end as well. As Brisbane used those 2 picks to get Jared Brennan and one of the selwood brothers.

I didnt mind freos 2008 draft but I would of chosen Sloane over Suban.

Freo chose Palmer when they could of got Dangerfield.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm actually going to against my natural grain and defend Carlton for a second here.

Getting Judd was not only about buying success overnight. It was probably also seen as a method of getting some clout back- by making a statement, if you will. It's important to remember what a total rabble they were- on field and off- between 2002 and 2007. The club came within a whisper of dying altogether because they were crippled financially, and they were basically completely uncompetitive on field. Around 2006-07, the mire Carlton was in seemed so deep that one couldn't help wonder if they were going to be able to rise out of it. That's where Judd came in- it got the results on the improve instantly, and importantly, it also got the fans' and supporter base's attention.

It's easy in hindsight to say they lost out on the Judd trade, but if you look at it from the point of view of the dire straits Carlton was in prior to 2008, ultimately it was understandable, and justifiable, in that context.

Yep and You should think as well Freo Traded 1, 20 and 36 for Croad and McPharlin and Pick 17 to get Jeff Farmer. Didnt win us a Flag but Offield it worked. Freo Struggled to get 10,000 at the WACA ground in 2001 yet by 2004 they were getting 30,000 at Subiaco.

 

[JuddsABlue]

I love the people coming out of the woodwork now saying imagine if we had fev

we are chastised as a club for years and told by basically everyone we couldnt win a flag with fev in our side because we were too dependant on him, now apparently we havent won a flag yet because we got rid of him

Josh Kennedy is playing ok footy in a super strong team and forward line. Has done nothing to warrant regret over the trade from Judd whos done amazing things for the club since arriving

 

[TedDougChris]

Sandra Sully how are ya!

But it does make me sick, it opens up another hindsight, don't think we would have had Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt if we got Buddy, strange thought.

Good point. The list changes wouldn't necessarily all be direct. Some would also then be consequences of the impact the earlier decisions would have had.

We've had a bit of discussion on drafting/trading this year on the Bulldogs board, I'm convinced we would have chosen differently with our pick last year if Ward had of stayed. No disprespect to Clay Smith, he is and will be a good player, but we wouldn't have needed another inside mid had Ward stayed. So even small things have consequences on the list...

 

[TedDougChris]

I love the people coming out of the woodwork now saying imagine if we had fev

we are chastised as a club for years and told by basically everyone we couldnt win a flag with fev in our side because we were too dependant on him, now apparently we havent won a flag yet because we got rid of him

Josh Kennedy is playing ok footy in a super strong team and forward line. Has done nothing to warrant regret over the trade from Judd whos done amazing things for the club since arriving

i hate bringing it up, but Kennedy did kick about 100 goals in a single game against us one day.... most carlton supporters I know went 'ouch' around that time.... Not saying that Judd was a bad pickup, but saying that Kennedy has done nothing is very silly....

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Without all the concessions, priority picks or draft pick swaps if the draft lists stayed the same and the only shuffling of picks were F/S:

() = players they could've taken.

Sydney (Dangerfield) instead of Veszpremi.
Collingwood (Whitecross) instead of McCarthy.
North Melbourne (Grigg) instead of Urquhart.
Sydney (Goldsack) instead of Faulks.
Richmond (Pendlebury) instead of Oakley-Nicholls.
Adelaide (Buddy) instead of Meesen.
Carlton (Pratt) instead of Anthony Raso.
Geelong (McLean) instead of Tenace.
Melbourne (Staker) instead of Moorcroft.
Fremantle (Hodge) instead of Polak.
Footscray (Medhurst) instead of Brent Colbert.
Adelaide (Swan) instead of Schuback.
Collingwood (Kerr) instead of Jason Cloke.
Richmond (Cross) instead of Sziller.
Brisbane (Corey Jones) instead of Luke Hammond.
Richmond (Scott Stevens) instead of Ezra Poyas.

 

[TedDougChris]

That bit is true But Freos regular trading of 1st round picks from 1994-2006 still haunts me.

A couple of examples: Justin Longmuir was Pick 2 in the 1998 draft while Josh carr was pick 12/13. We gave Port 11, 27 and 45 to get Josh Carr after he won a flag with Port in 2004.

2006 was a nasty one as Freo traded Pick 12 and Graham Polak to Richmond for pick 8. Richmond used Pick 12 to Get Jack Riewoldt Which is a Key Forward freo needed now. Instead we Traded Pick 8 and Paul Medhurst to get Chris Tarrant. Sharrod Wellingham was also in the 2006 rookie draft.

Giving Picks 3 and 19 to Brisbane for Des Headland was bad for us in the end as well. As Brisbane used those 2 picks to get Jared Brennan and one of the selwood brothers.

I didnt mind freos 2008 draft but I would of chosen Sloane over Suban.

Freo chose Palmer when they could of got Dangerfield.

Look, I'm trying to defend you guys here, stopping throwing more petrol on the bloody fire will you.....

Our drafting this century with first round picks isn't great when you look back...

Power, Walsh, Cooney, Ray, Griffen, Williams, Higgins, Everitt, Grant, Cordy....

Two really talented players (one injured), a couple serviceable (both always injured) one ok to average and the rest delisted or unproven....