What do we need to do to return back to premiership contention?

[Turbocat]

Even Richmond was on the brink, it was that bad.

Rich was one of the one who were shaking tins ... along with the dogs. I can remember Alan Bond had a plan to get rich out of trouble at one stage. Hawks and the Dee nearly merged. North and the Lions nearly merged.

It was around that time that Krock or 3gl (not sure which) lead a news article ..say Geelong was going to move to queensland and be called the Coolangatta Cats . It took a while for people to realise it was april 1

It was pre draft and sal cap... and everyone was getting more and more into debt ... and I think it was 86 or 87 ... that Ch 7 dropped out from TV rights and it was covered by ABC. It was very different to now.

 

[iameviljez]

Fair enough valid opinion.

Too me they are similar in that they were both from out of the system... we found.. them gave them a shot ... and they showed so much that they were offered huge money from Sydney

There is one very reasonable comparison: Sydney offered them both a chance to set themselves up for life in a way that they wouldn't have gotten at Geelong.

Mumford's future at Geelong was far from certain. He was stuck behind Ottens and Blake, who were clearly first choice when fit, and seemingly at the time, not going anywhere soon. He was every chance of going the same way as Paul Chambers and Peter Street, and being out of the AFL system in 2 years. He was on rookie wages, too.

Diesel was a superstar of the competition - but this was the 80s, and thus he wasn't paid like superstars are now. Sydney offering to boost your wages to $100k was a big deal, and it's meant that he hasn't had to work a 9 to 5 gig after footy.

 

[iameviljez]

North and the Lions nearly merged.

They should have merged. That really screwed the old Fitzroy supporters over. I know the Presidents were worried about a super-club, but that was short term thinking.

 

[catstragic]

For starters, I'm a very pro Chris Scott fan, so please don't take it as an instant kick the man out type. BUT.. is Chris Scott our next premiership coach if we determine that our window is closed/closing?

I don't think we need to overreact in terms of selling the farm though there would be a distinct difference in merely communicating that the objective for the 24-25 seasons is not "we're going for a flag". Until the club officially decides that a flag is out of reach, which they may not simply from a marketing and revenue perspective, then it's hard to expect drastic change.

Up to him. He's a very good coach, happy to keep him around if he has the drive to go through another rejig.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Hmac was bad but we have made a few ..

Sidebottom was so bad... Footywire doesn't even count his 7 game 1981 season.

Topped of with missing the bus t the game in a final. What a disaster.

Have the public actually ever been told ( and the actual truth ) as to what actually happened which caused him to miss the bus to that final - and the amazing thing is - Sidebottom that year had not played a senior game - since about round 6 or round 7 - so it was amazing he got selected for the PF - and amazingly Daved Clarke got dropped - and i didnt think he played too badly in the 2nd semi - against Carlton

Not having ago at anyone - but you only get tit bits of information - i can remember Ian Nankervis who was capt saying they wernt happy with the condition ( drinking ) that Sidebottom was in when he got off the reseves bus the week before after the game - but he then added that Gary was a good strong trainer and everything would be allright . And then Peter Johnson saying - Billy said to him - your not playing - your not in the team - but bring your gear just in case - ah because Sidey might miss the bus . Then you had the team manager who years later threatened legal action if he was to be blamed in any shape or form for Sidey missing the bus - and as a result he was totally exonerated from any blame

Id love someone to say this is what actually happened - and this why he missed the bus - in my opinion the full complete story has never been told

Its a bit like the Fine Cotton fiasco- ok we know it was a ring in - but the public have never been told the full- complete story - as in to who organised it- who was the Mr Big - who recruited all the players/characters - who paid for the substitute horse Bold Personality . All weve got re info - is bits and pieces - Robbie Waterhouse the bookie got suspended - there was a priest at the Appin Greyhound Track - wanting to have 10 grand cash on the horse or something

The public have never been told the full story A-Z in who actually organized it - and who was issuing the directions- as to who did what

 

[allrighty]

Have the public actually ever been told ( and the actual truth ) as to what actually happened which caused him to miss the bus to that final - and the amazing thing is - Sidebottom that year had not played a senior game - since about round 6 or round 7 - so it was amazing he got selected for the PF - and amazingly Daved Clarke got dropped - and i didnt think he played too badly in the 2nd semi - against Carlton

Not having ago at anyone - but you only get tit bits of information - i can remember Ian Nankervis who was capt saying they wernt happy with the condition ( drinking ) that Sidebottom was in when he got off the reseves bus the week before after the game - but he then added that Gary was a good strong trainer and everything would be allright . And then Peter Johnson saying - Billy said to him - your not playing - your not in the team - but bring your gear just in case - ah because Sidey might miss the bus . Then you had the team manager who years later threatened legal action if he was to be blamed in any shape or form for Sidey missing the bus - and as a result he was totally exonerated from any blame

Id love someone to say this is what actually happened - and this why he missed the bus - in my opinion the full complete story has never been told

Its a bit like the Fine Cotton fiasco- ok we know it was a ring in - but the public have never been told the full- complete story - as in to who organised it- who was the Mr Big - who recruited all the players/characters - who paid for the substitute horse Bold Personality . All weve got re info - is bits and pieces - Robbie Waterhouse the bookie got suspended - there was a priest at the Appin Greyhound Track - wanting to have 10 grand cash on the horse or something

The public have never been told the full story A-Z in who actually organized it - and who was issuing the directions- as to who did what

I heard he was in but hardarse coach Goggin did not want him in so he "missed" the bus. Really I have NFI and would love to know, but I doubt we ever will.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Can't say I want us to do a proper rebuild after seeing how many clubs have tried and failed to do them. Plus we have too much talent on our list that a s**t year for us is still going to end up with us finishing between 7th and 12th, not low enough to get a great pick.

We won't even be truly s**t because of the games we play in Geelong.

But you are right, what a problem to have.

With the massive compromisation of the draft due to academies, the inclusion of FA as well, you cant rely on solely the draft.

 

[iameviljez]

Higgins I put in a different category: should have come as a free agent a year earlier and by the time he came, paying anything at all was a poor decision. His first season was a pass mark, barely, and in his second he simply faded and was passed by others in a successful flag year so zero harm done.

Two years earlier IIRC. And then we played him out of position at half-forward anyway - he wasn't great overhead or particularly quick, he really needed to play in the middle.

 

[iameviljez]

We won't even be truly s**t because of the games we play in Geelong.

I mean, you'd say that, but West Coast play half of their games against a team that has just spent four hours on a plane, and yet...

 

[goyoucatters]

Its a bit like the Fine Cotton fiasco- ok we know it was a ring in - but the public have never been told the full- complete story - as in to who organised it- who was the Mr Big - who recruited all the players/characters - who paid for the substitute horse Bold Personality . All weve got re info - is bits and pieces - Robbie Waterhouse the bookie got suspended - there was a priest at the Appin Greyhound Track - wanting to have 10 grand cash on the horse or something

The public have never been told the full story A-Z in who actually organized it - and who was issuing the directions- as to who did what

Read this for a fantastic summation of so much of what went on with the 'Fine Cotton' ring-in. A really enjoyable and insightful book.

 

[iameviljez]

For starters, I'm a very pro Chris Scott fan, so please don't take it as an instant kick the man out type. BUT.. is Chris Scott our next premiership coach if we determine that our window is closed/closing?

There are a few coaches in history who built two sides into premiership contention, without leaving clubs. Sheedy did it three times, Malthouse did it twice with Collingwood, Longmire did it at Sydney.

 

[catempire]

Two years earlier IIRC. And then we played him out of position at half-forward anyway - he wasn't great overhead or particularly quick, he really needed to play in the middle.

Nah it was 2019. We were also keen in 2014 when he moved from the Bulldogs to North.

 

[00VicWard001]

I think the question is honestly more if Scott wants to have a go at a rebuild or not… not the other way around if we want him.

He has been around along time and it is a very taxing job… is he interested in going through that journey??

If I was him, I would also want a full commitment from geelong that they are all in for him to do it properly as well. The last thing you want is a Clarkson tantrum midway through and a sacking

Scott isnt like that. He's never ever been of the Clarkson mold.

And I think after the premiership, he's actually excited to rebuild the club back into contention with a group of young players. He's won a premiership with a champion team that was put together prior to his time, he's won a premiership with a bits and pieces team he's put together while contending year after year, and now he may well get the third opportunity, where he can do it with a group of draft picks coming up from the bottom half of the ladder (e.g. Melbourne). It would be exciting for him, and the the stability of the club (something Melbourne sorted out first and foremost - unlike NM) will actually give him a greater chance. It might take 4-5 years, but he's still a fairly young man, so he definitely will have the energy.

 

[iameviljez]

Nah it was 2019. We were also keen in 2014 when he moved from the Bulldogs to North.

He would have been perfect then, in that forward of the ball midfielder role that SJ played in 2013

 

[And_ROOS]

I mean, you'd say that, but West Coast play half of their games against a team that has just spent four hours on a plane, and yet...

When they made that new ground, didn't they say its closer to MCG dimensions so that when it comes to finals they are used to the size and feel of the ground?

No chance of that in Geelong, where teams make mistakes based on the shape.

Plus the drive down the highway seems to psychologically ruin players worse than a 4 or 5 hour flight.

 

[BORIS332]

Might be jumping the gun a bit here and would love nothing more than to be wrong, but i am happy as a fan to put a cross through a flag in 2023. Finals maybe at best.

So the discussion i put forward to you is... What does the club need to do in the future to return the Geelong football club back to premiership contention???

Myself personally, i see this as a very exciting period of a mini transition where we heavily invest in some good quality youth for a couple of seasons... Potentially 2x top ten draft picks in a row with clark and whoever comes along this season.

A huge pre season into bruhn henry brothers and holmes SDK, knevitt Neale and Conway will see a natural increment.... How big a rise depends on how much they put in on the track

Will danger Duncan blicavs Hawkins guthrie continue to hold form and roles??

I can see us if all goes right bouncing back to top four next season, or I can see us spending 2-4 years in the bottom 8 building back up again.

Either way, I am very excited about what the next chapter brings!

All we need is proper conditioning and a fit list. We had a shortened pre-season, and all year we've been battling to have a full list available. It's as simple as that. We have the personnel.

 

[Interdimensional Bigfoot]

More torpedoes.

 

[Matthew Jelley]

Really need a high quality mid and and another b+ at least in there
This could come from Bruhn, Knevitt and Clark but perhaps not for another season or two hence why bring on Parish

 

[dazbroncos]

its all begins with the MF IMO

If the MF can get better clearances and entries then the F will work better.

If the MF can run both way and apply pressure then the D will work better and outnumber

Both F and D group sneed to help the mids by pushing up and working back no doubt... but the MF is where it starts.

And thru injury and work rate, we have suffered this year.

GO Catters

 

[catsfootyfan89]

its all begins with the MF IMO

If the MF can get better clearances and entries then the F will work better.

If the MF can run both way and apply pressure then the D will work better and outnumber

Both F and D group sneed to help the mids by pushing up and working back no doubt... but the MF is where it starts.

And thru injury and work rate, we have suffered this year.

GO Catters

This is the grim reality - as I don't see any midfielders in our list who are likely to be able to pick up the torch in the next year or two to make us genuinely competitive in there.

I almost wonder if it'd be worth trading some assets out of the side to a genuine contender team who's hoping to go all the way in the next year or two. Possibly a Carlton, who are a little weak across half-back and could take one of our backs in exchange for some midfield grunt. Or maybe even the Bulldogs etc?

This is one of the terminal long-term symptoms of constantly trading in players and not relying on the draft. Eventually it seems you get yourself into problems you can only trade your way out of.

 

[Mr Meow]

This is the grim reality - as I don't see any midfielders in our list who are likely to be able to pick up the torch in the next year or two to make us genuinely competitive in there.

I almost wonder if it'd be worth trading some assets out of the side to a genuine contender team who's hoping to go all the way in the next year or two. Possibly a Carlton, who are a little weak across half-back and could take one of our backs in exchange for some midfield grunt. Or maybe even the Bulldogs etc?

This is one of the terminal long-term symptoms of constantly trading in players and not relying on the draft. Eventually it seems you get yourself into problems you can only trade your way out of.

I share your concerns but I do think Bruhn will continue his improvement and Holmes surely has to bounce back. I know some see him as a wingman only, but we desperately need him to share midfield duties as well and in his best few games this season, he has done it superbly. The problem is he's had no consistency.

Blicavs and Atkins for whatever reason have rarely fired at the same time this season. When they have, we've actually been really competitive in there. This tends to happen, besides the last couple of weeks, when Dangerfield is in there with them. I'm confident that even though he's a different type of midfielder, C.Guthrie could be that main driver next season.

Ideally Dangerfield can be managed a bit better and not have so many injury interruptions. He has still had 6 or so of his 14 games performing really well. 2 he got injured mid game and a couple he was rusty returning. But I think just based on the last two weeks the overreactions to Dangerfield have been overblown. If half of his games next season are to a high standard and he has more help, he's still doing his job.

Maybe one experienced midfielder like Crouch as a stop gap is the best we can do for next year, where we will also start to blood Clark in. Ideally we get an A grade midfielder in their prime but it's just so hard to do. We need the group we have to go back to the best of 2022 (minus Selwood) with some other youngsters stepping up.

 

[catsfootyfan89]

I share your concerns but I do think Bruhn will continue his improvement and Holmes surely has to bounce back. I know some see him as a wingman only, but we desperately need him to share midfield duties as well and in his best few games this season, he has done it superbly. The problem is he's had no consistency.

Blicavs and Atkins for whatever reason have rarely fired at the same time this season. When they have, we've actually been really competitive in there. This tends to happen, besides the last couple of weeks, when Dangerfield is in there with them. I'm confident that even though he's a different type of midfielder, C.Guthrie could be that main driver next season.

Ideally Dangerfield can be managed a bit better and not have so many injury interruptions. He has still had 6 or so of his 14 games performing really well. 2 he got injured mid game and a couple he was rusty returning. But I think just based on the last two weeks the overreactions to Dangerfield have been overblown. If half of his games next season are to a high standard and he has more help, he's still doing his job.

Maybe one experienced midfielder like Crouch as a stop gap is the best we can do for next year, where we will also start to blood Clark in. Ideally we get an A grade midfielder in their prime but it's just so hard to do. We need the group we have to go back to the best of 2022 (minus Selwood) with some other youngsters stepping up.

The Dangerfield point is a good one - but the guy is just his own worst enemy sometimes. I thought it was miraculous he didn't get injured in the Grand Final last year - was just running full pelt into congested contests but somehow managed to escape unscathed. I remember Bartel saying years ago that his view was the harder you go, the less likely you are to be the one who gets hurt. Maybe there's truth to that. Either way, Dangerfield injuries seem more likely at this stage of his career now the body is pretty old.

And as for consistency from Holmes/Blicavs, I agree. Some of the vision from the Brisbane game of Blicavs was absolutely damning in my view. He was choosing when to go and when not to.

I do worry about the way the midfield is being coached sometimes. I see blokes like Atkins/Blicavs playing way too defensively in the middle and when they do, we usually get torched. You can't win clean clearances by setting up defensively in my view. It's all or nothing in there, but maybe the defensive mindset is being coached because the mid coaches know that we probably lose more than we win with such a patchy group of midfielders with no Selwood/Guthrie/injured Dangerfield.

 

[CHAWKTS]

Tso of the boys who could help us come back into contention have had great years in VFL (and Mitch has played well in AFL when given that block of games). If you look at VFL stats noting that 2 games for Dempsey he played only a half given he was holdover…they have consistently now shown they are too good for VFL and hopefully in 2024 that can translate into AFL - will be big boost for team if they have have a year 3 SDK type break out…

For comparison I did have a look to try and compare other clubs youngest and how their VFL form got them games. Not the lower clubs…last night for example Arty Jones played for the Dogs (who will get 5th) in the same position Dempsey plays. His VFL stats are average 8 possessins and less than A goal a game vs Dempsey 24 possessions and 1.5 goals per game…

Understand the difference between VFL and AFL but Mitch proved this year that if you give a kid a handful of full games in a row they can build into it. Let’s hope both have a full pre season along with Jyhe Clark and Toby - and maybe we start with 4 new recruits who can compete at that level?


Dempsey VFL Stats




Knevitt VFL Stats

 

[Mr Meow]

Tso of the boys who could help us come back into contention have had great years in VFL (and Mitch has played well in AFL when given that block of games). If you look at VFL stats noting that 2 games for Dempsey he played only a half given he was holdover…they have consistently now shown they are too good for VFL and hopefully in 2024 that can translate into AFL - will be big boost for team if they have have a year 3 SDK type break out…

For comparison I did have a look to try and compare other clubs youngest and how their VFL form got them games. Not the lower clubs…last night for example Arty Jones played for the Dogs (who will get 5th) in the same position Dempsey plays. His VFL stats are average 8 possessins and less than A goal a game vs Dempsey 24 possessions and 1.5 goals per game…

Understand the difference between VFL and AFL but Mitch proved this year that if you give a kid a handful of full games in a row they can build into it. Let’s hope both have a full pre season along with Jyhe Clark and Toby - and maybe we start with 4 new recruits who can compete at that level?


Dempsey VFL Stats

View attachment 1764971


Knevitt VFL Stats
View attachment 1764972

I haven't watched any VFL this year.

Is Dempsey just as adept on the wing as up forward? Because I feel like from next year that's where we need him, to replace Smith. Hopefully he can put on enough size to at least handle himself at AFL level. It took Z.Guthrie a while.

 

[CHAWKTS]

I haven't watched any VFL this year.

Is Dempsey just as adept on the wing as up forward? Because I feel like from next year that's where we need him, to replace Smith. Hopefully he can put on enough size to at least handle himself at AFL level. It took Z.Guthrie a while.

Ultimately (after another few pre seasons) I see him as a midfielder. He knows how to find the ball…but his body couldn’t compete at AFL MF. Winger I reckon is a good option as he can present for marks too. Last year they did have him on the wing a lot but this year I can’t remember him playing there - so I assume they have locked him in at HHF for now (which is probably what Smith is playing a lot of now anyway). I assume this is the position they think he will have more chance to play AFL in short term?

I am not sure we know what we have yet. How good or best position. Certaintly he is becoMing more consistent and confident so I am hoping that year 2 to 3 will be a massive leap forward.

Also very hopeful for Jyhe and Toby to accelerate if they get a run at it