What do we really need from this season?

[Slippery Pete]

interesting thing about recent interview with Nigel Smart, was his belief we weren’t the best team in 1997 or 1998 and that anything did happen

from within the inner sanctum that’s the belief, make the 8 and anything can happen

what’s perverse is that he is probably wrong, we had the best % in both years. The metric now most believe is the best indicator of the best teams. I.e. we probably WERE THE BEST TEAM in both years

so if a crucial, key part of the team is wrong about that, what hope the modern club?

it’s a myth, believed from top to bottom of the club, that we weren’t the best team in our premierships years

we were. So it’s not a case of lightning striking twice, the next time it strikes will be the first

best %, and beat all comers - and we’ve become so psychologically damaged, gaslit from the broader community into believing we didn’t deserve it

it’s like this club has been married to a wife beater.

The only reason I could with 1998 is we finished 5th, but it's clear as day we were the best team in the league and just did what we had to do until we made finals.

Of course, one loss (even a flogging) in a finals series means sweet fu** all if you have the double chance.

Spot on.

Not only did we have the best percentage, we had the best defence in the league both years. And we knocked off the team with the best attack in consecutive GFs. That’s not coincidence.

This is actually a fascinating discussion. How that success shaped the club’s attitudes and culture.

Drugs Are Bad Mackay? wrote something really salient about this a while back. I can’t find it though so any chance of writing it again Spackler?

 

[WeeBlake]

did it?

not for us, and not necessarily for a team that believed it would

I think so. Their mantra was ‘why not us’.

 

[Slippery Pete]

I think so. Their mantra was ‘why not us’.

Did the conversation go something like this?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

This is actually a fascinating discussion. How that success shaped the club’s attitudes and culture.

Drugs Are Bad Mackay? wrote something really salient about this a while back. I can’t find it though so any chance of writing it again Spackler?

From 2007, back when I was a Neil Craig fan and thought he was leading us to glory:

The premierships were absolutely fantastic and Blight is no doubt a genius for pulling it off but let's not be deluded about what they were - an unscripted, unexpected and unplanned smash-n-grab that caught everyone by surprise (including our most one-eyed supporters).

There was no Pagan/Kangaroos apprenticeship served with a string of finals appearances; preliminary final losses; learning, regrouping and improving; capped by 1996 and 1999 triumphs. And at no stage were we premiership favourites - even in grand final week! Our premierships came from nowhere: 12th - 1st - 1st - 12th. They were abnormalities on our chart, not a sign that our club had become a respected, consistent power.

Were these premierships the making of us as a club or were they in a funny way the worst thing that could happen to us? Did the manner of them (being the best September team, as opposed to being the best team) lead to false expectations among supporters, administrators and players and breed an unrealistic and lazy impression about how to achieve success?

Port have gone through a process. Their 2004 triumph was achieved after some bitter finals disappointments - they learned, improved and re-assessed and earned their flag. They won a flag plus a harsh dose of reality about the standards that must be reached to win a premiership. 2001-03 are as important in Port's history as 2004 was. It is no surprise that they returned to the business end of the finals so soon.

Our success was flash in the pan and afterwards we returned straight back to where we had been. Our club doesn't have a history to follow for consistent success, simply memories of twin miracles that we will never be able to repeat.


We've picked up a minor premiership, being the best performed team in the minor round. Obviously without a flag or even a GF to follow that up it isn't worth a pile of beans but to me it indicates that the ideals and philosophies that Craig is trying to impart on our club will lead to success.

A measure of Craig's worth as a coach must be our stunning level of competitiveness whenever we take the field. In the last three years we have only lost one game by more than about 30 points. It is an incredible culture of pride and commitment that has been created in Craig's time. There are no easy games against us, home or away. Whilst some supporters take this pride in the guernsey for granted I hope it will pay dividends.

 

[Sanders]

From 2007, back when I was a Neil Craig fan and thought he was leading us to glory:

and again, with the best September team not the best team

We seem to have ignored the possibility - what if we were the best performed team all year round?

our problems stem not from the “make the 8 and anything can happen syndrome” but from not giving ourselves enough credit to realise that isn’t what happened there.

there was no smash n grab, just the best team all year being underrated by the football industry

 

[BronCrow]

Like Brad, we won't be getting first round compo for Matt.

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Does that matter?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Does that matter?

We botch our first rounders anyway

Best take a 2nd

 

[John Who]

Looking back at the recent years, I think what we've been missing is a jet midfielder who more often than not, plays well in Finals. I'm thinking Martin, Cotchin, Dangerfield, Fyfe, Neale. When a midfielder plays to their usual potential, then this naturally brings about other midfielders lifting their game, and you're more likely to get better look at the ball for the forwards.

If we want to compare the 97 and 98 premiership years to all the subsequent years (including 2017), we have lacked an elite midfielder who tends to perform in the heated rounds/Finals. Whereas back in 97/98, we were blessed with a dual Norm Smith in McLeod. Of course, it also helped we had a freak of a forward and big-game performer in D. Jarman! All the records of wins-losses and percentages during the minor rounds become pointless when you reach the day of a Grand Final. You need A-graders doing A-grade stuff when it comes to Finals. Elite players give you the best chance of that happening on GF day.

 

[John Who]

It’s obviously not working...

can you tell?

 

[Golumless]

Looking back at the recent years, I think what we've been missing is a jet midfielder who more often than not, plays well in Finals. I'm thinking Martin, Cotchin, Dangerfield, Fyfe, Neale. When a midfielder plays to their usual potential, then this naturally brings about other midfielders lifting their game, and you're more likely to get better look at the ball for the forwards.

If we want to compare the 97 and 98 premiership years to all the subsequent years (including 2017), we have lacked an elite midfielder who tends to perform in the heated rounds/Finals. Whereas back in 97/98, we were blessed with a dual Norm Smith in McLeod. Of course, it also helped we had a freak of a forward and big-game performer in D. Jarman! All the records of wins-losses and percentages during the minor rounds become pointless when you reach the day of a Grand Final. You need A-graders doing A-grade stuff when it comes to Finals. Elite players give you the best chance of that happening on GF day.

Us not having McLeod in 2005-06 is news to me.

 

[MRB37]

One thing that seems apparent now is how important Nicks first year was, even if it was a failure overall in the W/L column. So much emphasis put on defensive effort has put us in the mix more this year because of how the rules have changed the game slightly. The games are flowing quicker, the ball is moving faster and if you have a team that isn't willing to work their butts off without the ball you have a hard time winning. There's more talented teams overall than us like St Kilda who have struggled early because they haven't put that defensive effort in. People will say that the offensive side of the game has improved, but I think they're also ignoring the teams who haven't been willing to improve their defence along with it, which is causing some of these results.

Now the side is getting reward for that effort, it reinforces to them how important it is, then you hope it becomes the new normal, win, lose or draw, this is the effort that every guy puts in every week. What this season can do is lay the foundations on the expectations on every future player that walks through the front door on what is expected of them. The team things Nicks is praising, these are the sort of things you can build a "culture" around and build something that people want to be a part of.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

One thing that seems apparent now is how important Nicks first year was, even if it was a failure overall in the W/L column. So much emphasis put on defensive effort has put us in the mix more this year because of how the rules have changed the game slightly. The games are flowing quicker, the ball is moving faster and if you have a team that isn't willing to work their butts off without the ball you have a hard time winning. There's more talented teams overall than us like St Kilda who have struggled early because they haven't put that defensive effort in. People will say that the offensive side of the game has improved, but I think they're also ignoring the teams who haven't been willing to improve their defence along with it, which is causing some of these results.

Now the side is getting reward for that effort, it reinforces to them how important it is, then you hope it becomes the new normal, win, lose or draw, this is the effort that every guy puts in every week. What this season can do is lay the foundations on the expectations on every future player that walks through the front door on what is expected of them. The team things Nicks is praising, these are the sort of things you can build a "culture" around and build something that people want to be a part of.

Does seem that he rolled out a game style, didn't have proper time to practice it with a young squad so initial results were particularly poor, but he did weed out some players who are incapable of playing it. So a small step forward at least

 

[John Who]

Us not having McLeod in 2005-06 is news to me.

Point taken. But it doesn't necessarily detract from my previous point. Having elite players doesn't guarantee a win in Finals, but it certainly helps improve our chances (which was my point). With our recent midfield/forward stock, we don't have any A+ midfielders or even A+ forwards. You can probably argue that Tex is in A+ form, but in recent years he was more or less a B to B+ forward. Sloane and the Crouch Bros have been hovering around B to A- in the past few years also. We saw in the 2017 GF, that [B to A-] range dropped to [C to B-] range when the heat was on!

 

[MRB37]

Does seem that he rolled out a game style, didn't have proper time to practice it with a young squad so initial results were particularly poor, but he did weed out some players who are incapable of playing it. So a small step forward at least

The old saying you're only as strong as your weakest link. If he removed a few of those then all the better.

 

[John Who]

One thing that seems apparent now is how important Nicks first year was, even if it was a failure overall in the W/L column. So much emphasis put on defensive effort has put us in the mix more this year because of how the rules have changed the game slightly. The games are flowing quicker, the ball is moving faster and if you have a team that isn't willing to work their butts off without the ball you have a hard time winning. There's more talented teams overall than us like St Kilda who have struggled early because they haven't put that defensive effort in. People will say that the offensive side of the game has improved, but I think they're also ignoring the teams who haven't been willing to improve their defence along with it, which is causing some of these results.

Now the side is getting reward for that effort, it reinforces to them how important it is, then you hope it becomes the new normal, win, lose or draw, this is the effort that every guy puts in every week. What this season can do is lay the foundations on the expectations on every future player that walks through the front door on what is expected of them. The team things Nicks is praising, these are the sort of things you can build a "culture" around and build something that people want to be a part of.

Yep, results of the last few rounds in 2020 and first few rounds of this year, suggests there is a definite improvement. Which is what I'm keen on seeing this year, how far can this improvement stretch out to? More importantly the improvement needs to be as such, we will continue to progress further up for next year.

 

[BronCrow]

We botch our first rounders anyway

Best take a 2nd

Wasn't necessarily my point, but I can't disagree.

 

[Sanders]

Point taken. But it doesn't necessarily detract from my previous point.

Yeah it does. That is precisely and literally what it does

 

[Golumless]

Point taken. But it doesn't necessarily detract from my previous point. Having elite players doesn't guarantee a win in Finals, but it certainly helps improve our chances (which was my point). With our recent midfield/forward stock, we don't have any A+ midfielders or even A+ forwards. You can probably argue that Tex is in A+ form, but in recent years he was more or less a B to B+ forward. Sloane and the Crouch Bros have been hovering around B to A- in the past few years also. We saw in the 2017 GF, that [B to A-] range dropped to [C to B-] range when the heat was on!

It does, because if the lesson you've taken out of our 05-06 run is we didn't have an elite midfielder to push us over the line, two years where we had the trio of McLeod, Roo, and Goodwin up at full steam, you've definitely messed up your argument.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I was sad enough about going back to work tomorrow and you guys had to bring up 05-06.

 

[Jarmayhem]

One problem I feel we have at the moment is one which is completely out of our control - a number of teams seem to have (at least temporarily) fallen off track so far this year where we may snag an extra win or two where we may not have had they been in better shape. On current form, Freo and GWS come to mind.

St Kilda too seem in an odd place at the moment. Early days yet though. It’s a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[ams4crows]

Can't believe there are seriously people complaining that we may win more games than expected this year.

 

[Sanders]

Can't believe there are seriously people complaining that we may win more games than expected this year.

depends on how many, and how we win them

 

[John Who]

It does, because if the lesson you've taken out of our 05-06 run is we didn't have an elite midfielder to push us over the line, two years where we had the trio of McLeod, Roo, and Goodwin up at full steam, you've definitely messed up your argument.

Let me put it in another take, would it do more harm than good if we actually have an A+ midfielder who performs well in Finals? Should we strive to get one, or accept a midfielder group of B to A-?

 

[John Who]

Can't believe there are seriously people complaining that we may win more games than expected this year.

It’s not so much a complaint, but more a dislike if the situation arises where we win enough to be “close to making Finals” but out of range of a top 5 draft pick. A Thilthorpe and if another top end talent at this year’s draft selection, would bring us more benefits for the longterm.

 

[rocket18]

What we need this season is to pump as many games into our kids as possible. That means the club has to forget about finals. Because what will happen is if we have a good run with injuries and we win enough games to perhaps think about finals we will be tempted to just change on form. Then the same arguments about players playing poor in sanfl and not deserving a spot so players don't get omitted and the golden tickets syndrome starts.

With Talia and Crouch to come back in there is a real chance we can make an impact this season. But what for. We aren't going to do anything in finals, all we would do is cost ourselves higher draft picks to clubs who are engaging in building their youth.

Im not saying we should tank, but the club needs to be finding ways to bring in guys like Thilthorpe, Hately and others. Dmac selection last week was not justified and wasted an opportunity to expose another youngster.


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Agree we need to pump games into our youngsters, I posted in the lead up to the GC game that RT should have debuted and be told he is in for at least the next 4 weeks. This is such a waste putting games into Frampton.

The only available over 23 year old not playing is Strachan, there's only Crouch and Mackay that could make us any older and surely we have seen the end of MacKay.

Thank goodness our list management culled the list so much that our selection committee have no choice but to pump games into our youngsters.



So even if we do win enough games to threaten to make the 8 our selection committee can only roll out MacKay to bolster our "experience" (which you could put your house on).

So looking at the above list of our oldest players does credit go to our selection committee or list management for us finally to start seriously playing the youngsters?

So after all that waffle my couple of wants for the season are:

• I want RT in now
• Fog in soon
• Stop wasting games on Frampton
• Jones in soon
• Never see MacKay again
• To win as many games as possible as we have no choice but to play the youth.

For us there's bugga all difference in pick 3/4 or pick 9/10,