What is the pass mark for Collingwood 2014?

[West123]

Surely if that midfield is fit they cannot miss the 8.

If mids start getting hurt expect the villagers to chase Bucks with pitchforks and torches.

 

[FuManchu]

Thats what 2010 was supposed to be, too.

There's a lot more in 2014 than in 2010 that need developing

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

There's a lot more in 2014 than in 2010 that need developing

True especially in ruck....but the point being that the players we brought in during 2010 made an immediate impact.

 

[FuManchu]

True....but the point being that the players we brought in during 2010 made an immediate impact.

I'm sure they will have an impact, but I bet after 50 games, they will be having a more pronounced impact.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I'm sure they will have an impact, but I bet after 50 games, they will be having a more pronounced impact.

Ben Reid was an 8 gamer at the start of 2010. Brown 35. Maccaffer 5. Blair 0. Dawes 10 Toovey 42 Wellingham 28.

 

[Sttew]

I don't expect to make the 8. But won't be far from it. The following year we should begin rising again.

That's how I see it. Pies look to be midway through a "mini" rebuild. I wouldn't be surprised if they finish top 6, nor would I be surprised if they finish 9th - there's still some serious experienced talent there.

 

[Falchoon]

Thought White was...whatever....will be soon

That's how most of us think of White....... whatever.

Q Lynch was a premiership player though!

 

[Gone Critical]

No they aren't. No way in hell will we slot in 2 players of equal quality this year. It just doesn't happen. They are 2 of the best dozen ror so players we've had in more than the last decade (as is Didak). Adams in time may be a very good player but both Thomas and Shaw ARE very very good players and add to that Didak who should have played 15 games this past season and been a starter for the finals. Not at all fussed with the otehr exits but when you are talking about flags it is the gap between a Thomas and an Adams that make the difference when it matters.

We aren't zero chance bnut we are cionsiderably less chance than had we had Thoam, Shaw adn 1 more year of Didak IMO. The long term benefits may well be huge with Adams and pick 6 but we have list managed ourselves out of serious contention this year IMO.

As I said, how the players that are there respond is the real test.

When Didak, Shaw and Thomas were last having peak seasons together we were in flag contention up to our ears. In 2012 and especially 2013 Didak and Thomas were shadows of themselves or not playing. We cannot replace that class but we will easily cover what they bought to 2013 as Shaw was the only meaningful contributor and even he was off for that season. So I agree we have plenty of ground to make up to be a real flag contender but there is every reason to think we should be considerably better in 2014 compared to 2013.

We should give the 4 a big shake or else Buckley needs looking at big time.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

White had a pretty good finish to 2013 so theres some potential upside if he can maintain that form. We dont need him to be a world beater, if we get a similar contribution we got from Dawes (the 2010 version) or L Brown we'll be happy. It gives us flexibility to play Reid wherever we want and gives us a lot of choice with our ruck structure if White (and/or Keeffe) can provide a backup. And makes it harder to double team Cloke. Good key position players are hard to find and slow to develop.

Jury definitely out on White but best available this season for sure. Hopefully he keeps Lynch out of the side who after all was only recruited as a short term stop-gap measure.

 

[MarkT2]

We cannot replace that class but we will easily cover what they bought to 2013...

Yes but in 2013 we were mediocre. To win the flag in 2014 it required, among other things, Thomas and Shaw fit and sdidak would have been a plus if we were prepared to play him for what he does well rather than what he has never done well becasue what he does well is what we most need.

All just hypotetical now.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Finals plain and simple.
Used 40 players last season, havent seen a injury list like that at the Pies in some time.
Played 3/4 of the season without Beams, Daisy only played a couple games, our recruit fwd played injured the entire season and still made the 8.
Players who hardly played last season in Toovey, Fasolo, Young to come in and make a impact.

I dont think we will do much in the way pf being a flag threat but i think we should be better next season then we were this season

 

[Gone Critical]

Yes but in 2013 we were mediocre. To win the flag in 2014 it required, among other things, Thomas and Shaw fit and sdidak would have been a plus if we were prepared to play him for what he does well rather than what he has never done well becasue what he does well is what we most need.

All just hypotetical now.

Agreed. 2013 was a bad season for us. Daisy and Heater are big losses going forward. Dids I think had gone over the hill. Was wanting Bucks to play him but even watching him in the VFL he wasn't doing those special goals out of nothing that made him the player he was. He should have been kicking bags in the VFL if w=he was going to impact the AFL.

What I am getting at in terms of this thread is for 2013 those 3 were not important so not being there in 2014 doesn't change things. What does change in 2014 is having Beams, Fas, Ball, Keefe, Toovey, Grundy and Young available and adding White and Adams. These should mean Collingwood should be better in 2014 than 2013. I agree getting back to 2010-11 form is another big step to take.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes but in 2013 we were mediocre. To win the flag in 2014 it required, among other things, Thomas and Shaw fit and sdidak would have been a plus if we were prepared to play him for what he does well rather than what he has never done well becasue what he does well is what we most need.

All just hypotetical now.

"Mediocre" despite our injuries and inexperience on the park still had us a bad loss to Gold Coast from playing off in Round 23 for a spot in the top four. Take away the injuries, add a years experience, and improve form marginally....add some new recruits and bang top four again. From there premierships are always a possibility. Its not a quantum leap to see us move up from a game out of the four to in the four.

 

[MarkT2]

Timmy, I think top 4 is the passmark as I said. Being a loss to GC from playing the last game which we lost for a top 4 spot is definitively medicore IMO. It isn't a great leap from there to make top 4 but the outs do make it harder and regardless it is a great leap from there to winning the flag.

 

[Jonno94]

I just can't take the name Broomhead seriously.

Don't lie, you're jealous.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Timmy, I think top 4 is the passmark as I said. Being a loss to GC from playing the last game which we lost for a top 4 spot is definitively medicore IMO. It isn't a great leap from there to make top 4 but the outs do make it harder and regardless it is a great leap from there to winning the flag.

Fair enough. I disagree that the outs make it any harder. As I said natural progression across the list and a bit of recruiting will cover those losses. It will be hard to win regardless. I think what we have done in the past two or three off seasons has improved our chances of winning a premiership. I'm confident our mini rebuild (which has been hapopening since 2010 when Lockyer Medhurst OBree Fraser and Presti were retired off) will eventually pay dividends. We havent made many mistakes at the trade or draft table since then...certainly not at the high end anyway.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I just can't take the name Broomhead seriously.

You better get an handle on it this year. Will clean up some awards I reckon.

 

[The Gong]

The Pies still have more than enough talent on the park to play finals next year. Top 4 might be a bit of a stretch since they are in a transition period but they have traded and recruited very well the past few years (not counting the Lynch experiment gone wrong) and could push for a flag a few years from now.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The Lynch experiment hasnt "gone wrong". In fact it wasnt even an experiment. It was part of a temporary patch to cover a ruck deficiency inherited from the previous coach.

Now we have the flexibility of Grundy/Witts/Hudson as first ruck options and White/Keeffe/Lynch as second ruck/kpp options. This time last year Grundy and Witts hadnt played a game yet, Keeffe was recovering from a knee reco, and Jolly couldnt cut it any more, forcing us to recruit Hudson and Lynch.

 

[lemon chicken]

The Lynch experiment hasnt "gone wrong". In fact it wasnt even an experiment. It was part of a temporary patch to cover a ruck deficiency inherited from the previous coach.

Now we have the flexibility of Grundy/Witts/Hudson as first ruck options and White/Keeffe/Lynch as second ruck/kpp options. This time last year Grundy and Witts hadnt played a game yet, Keeffe was recovering from a knee reco, and Jolly couldnt cut it any more, forcing us to recruit Hudson and Lynch.

Can't agree with this, Bucks delisted Wood who was probably as good as Hudson has been as a back-up to play VFL, delisted Ceglar who has played games for the premiers this year and traded Dawes who could pinch hit in the ruck and had the ability to work well in tandem with Cloke. This 'inherited deficiency' was able to win a premiership under a different coach.

 

[lemon chicken]

There is nothing wrong with replenishing.

Hawthorn were widely touted as having a dynasty after 2008.

How did that go? They then set about a list replenishment in 2009/10 and altered their premiership side drastically. It is what exactly what Coll is doing now.

As it sits now, Coll are ranked 13 league wide in terms of age. They sit 5th however in terms of games played. They are beautifully setup for the next few years.

The difference is they traded in experienced players in areas they needed rather than early picks and still are, Gibson, Hale, Burgoyne, Gunston, Lake, McEvoy. Not even close to what Collingwood are doing.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Wood was a cancer at the club and chewed up masses of salary cap. Hudson came at a fraction of the price and has been a leader and a teacher....and a better player despite being 97 years old. One only needs to ask themselves why no other club drafted Wood.
Dawes could not ruck (hence why Lynch was brought in) and asked to be traded to a club that wouldnt ask him to ruck. Dawes and Wellingham brought top 20 picks to the club when Hine wanted to be active. And cap relief. Win win situation for players and clubs.

Ceglar was unlucky to be delisted after just one year but one can hardly claim him to be a Malthouse success either. I cant comment on why he was delisted but good luck to him, luckily we landed Grundy a few weeks later..otherwise we'd have topped up with a Currie type, more mid aged.

Malthouse won a flag when he finally landed two ruckmen, Jolly and L Brown. They were late career players though so they only had an impact for a short time. Pies are now planning longer term with Witts and Grundy....hence topping up with veterans and kpp's who can ruck.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The difference is they traded in experienced players in areas they needed rather than early picks and still are, Gibson, Hale, Burgoyne, Gunston, Lake, McEvoy. Not even close to what Collingwood are doing.

Collingwood has actively traded picks in AND out over the years. It all depends how Hine rates the talent pool from one year to the next.

Hawthorn have done superbly though, no denying that. They have also relied on their share of top 20 picks to help them win premierships...Hodge Franklin Roughy Lewis Rioli etc etc....drafting and trading are equially important

 

[Gone Critical]

Can't agree with this, Bucks delisted Wood who was probably as good as Hudson has been as a back-up to play VFL, delisted Ceglar who has played games for the premiers this year and traded Dawes who could pinch hit in the ruck and had the ability to work well in tandem with Cloke. This 'inherited deficiency' was able to win a premiership under a different coach.

Wood v Hudson can't agree with. Hudson has been a good stand in but that is not his main role. He came as a mentor and coach to the ruckmen. Wood couldn't do that. Grundy and Witts played as our young rucks in 2014. Good luck to Ceglar for getting games at Hawks but much prefer our two. Lynch 2013 v Dawes 2012 = little difference. Lynch is only a pinch hitter , he cost nothing and moving Dawes meant a first round draft pick so a good result.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Losing Shaw is a big loss in terms of run from the HB run. Toovey will take that slack to a small degree, he is better defensively but not as creative as Shaw.

Not a big deal. Marley Williams better than Shaw this year. His kicking is suspect (so is shaws though) but was never beaten one and one and taught players of Rioli's class a lesson. Reckon he was the most improved on the Pies list this year and has more upside. Hence he got a 3 year deal a month or two back where Shaw other got kicked out of the club.