What is the worst team in AFL history?

[half_back_flank]

I'm glad it did...makes the rise even more remarkable...

What, getting a good zone?

 

[Gibbke]

What, getting a good zone?

It's not how big it is, it's how you use it...

 

[Shagga is all Class]

Swans lost 26 in a row including the first 11 of 93.

They were so bad the AFL started making up rules like giving then 3 of the top 5 picks.

They even went through a 5 week stretch where the average losing margin was over 100. When you give up over 200 points twice in 3 weeks and teams are having 19 shots in a quarter you must be crud.

 

[Slax]

I'm glad it did...makes the rise even more remarkable...

The rise had a lot to do with the population boom in the Eastern suburbs, the Hawthorn zone became so flushed with talent that it was impossible not to build a premiership side, good management and hey we've got a dynasty.

 

[Slax]

In the AFL era, Sydney 1993 were the worst. The reason for this over the Fitzroy 1996 side is that the AFl was pumping money into Sydney to try and make them competitive, they'd given them extra draft picks to help, were as the only years in the 90s when the AFL didn't offer priority picks were for the 1994 & 1995 drafts when they were on a drive to get rid of a side to bring in Port and Fitzroy was in the gun.

If Fitzroy got the financial assistance offered to Sydney or even now the likes of Roos, Osborne, Broderick, Gale and co would not of been lost to the club. you can't fight a fair fight when you have one arm tied behind you back.

 

[Syd]

So the worst team in AFL history boils down to a single seasons performance?

How about looking at the cumulative results since 1990, average wins per season, number of wooden spoons, etc to get a true reflection of 'crapness' over the entire AFL era?

Who would be the worst then?

 

[Gibbke]

The rise had a lot to do with the population boom in the Eastern suburbs, the Hawthorn zone became so flushed with talent that it was impossible not to build a premiership side, good management and hey we've got a dynasty.

Noone denies that the zones helped and hindered the teams over time...ask North and Fitzroy how that worked. So Hawthorn got what Carlton and Collingwood enjoyed for years beforehand...incidentally, how did this all work out for Footscray, who got a massive chunk of the west of Melbourne...?

You guys make it sound so easy...!

 

[Slax]

Noone denies that the zones helped and hindered the teams over time...ask North and Fitzroy how that worked. So Hawthorn got what Carlton and Collingwood enjoyed for years beforehand...incidentally, how did this all work out for Footscray, who got a massive chunk of the west of Melbourne...?

You guys make it sound so easy...!

If a side had a good zone and everyone acknowledges that Hawthorn had a great one, it means you start ahead of the pack, you still need the right people running the club, which Hawthron had.

North were the massive losers out of the zone system, St Kilda really didn't fair much better either.

 

[TubbsFarquhar]

So the worst team in AFL history boils down to a single seasons performance?

How about looking at the cumulative results since 1990, average wins per season, number of wooden spoons, etc to get a true reflection of 'crapness' over the entire AFL era?

Who would be the worst then?

Since 1990, it would probably be Richmond. Two spoons, only two finals appearances and have averaged just over 8 wins a year. At least Carlton won a flag and have appeared in several finals series, even Freo have played in more finals series and have won less spoons. This excludes GC and GWS of course.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Just waiting for the season proper to see if a team starts the season with a winless streak. No doubt you will then see BF favourites such as 'team xyz is a rabble' 'worst team since Fitzroy' 'is a disgrace' etc etc.

 

[mianfei]

I suspect it was more complex than that. Other inner-suburban clubs faced similar situations but found solutions.

The old "big three" of Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond had been able to diversify their supporter base much more than Fitzroy or South Melbourne, but I find it tough to dissociate these differences from differences in the availability of wealthy industrial and political patrons, which allowed Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond to dominate the league in the 1930s especially. Once these became impossible to obtain in the 1950s due to higher taxes, Fitzroy and South Melbourne could do nothing to stem their club's decline.

Footscray, affected by the same problem of losing a support base to migrants with no interest in Australian football, survived only by a rigorous policy of clearing players it could not afford to pay, just like Hawthorn and St. Kilda did in the 1930s and 1940s (and often more rigorous because of their strong country zone). People must not forget how they cleared Quinlan, Round, Templeton, Dempsey, Dunstan and other top players in the late 1970s - and as with Hawthorn and St. Kilda 35 years beforehand this de facto profit maximisation helped Footscray survive whilst Fitzroy died.

We should not forget that it was generally believed during the 1982/1983 off-season that Footscray would move to Brisbane permanently, and that the club had gone 5-39 in 1981 and 1982. Nor that the club still has major troubles competing financially in the AFL. One does wonder, though, what Footscray would have achieved had they been admitted instead of St. Kilda in 1897 (they were more deserving and more likely to attract the requisite patronage in an ultra-low-tax era) or if they alone had been admitted in 1925??

"rent control that prevented private owners charging ticket prices appropriate to less land-glutted regions"??? Whatever that is supposed to mean it was obviously overcome by both Sydney and Brisbane from the later 1990s onwards.

What I meant is that optimum ticket prices were probably higher in Sydney and Brisbane than in Melbourne because there are more restrictions on land supply for large stadiums. I tend to think that optimum ticket prices for clubs may have been proportionally as varied as average prices in leagues without the virtual rent control (more accurately a fixed rent) of the VFL/AFL.

Sydney and Brisbane overcame these problems through a combination of:

1. league aid via salary cap concessions
2. the Super League war attracting many new fans to football
3. the AFL taking over Sydney

 

[Syd]

Since 1990, it would probably be Richmond. Two spoons, only three finals appearances and have averaged just over 8 wins a year. At least Carlton won a flag and have appeared in several finals series, even Freo have played in more finals series and have won less spoons. This excludes GC and GWS of course.

I would have suspected as much.

 

[Slax]

I would have suspected as much.

As I keep telling Richmond supporters - Fitzroy has played in more finals series since 1982 than Richmond and we've been dead for more than half of that

 

[Syd]

roo2macca
Slax

I've been bored on a rainy day at work, so I thought I'd put the theories to the test and go back since 1990 and stack up the seasons.
1 point for a win, .5 for a draw (man, Geelong and the Dogs have had heaps!!)

Summariesed below:


1990 to 1999

Fitzroy won an average of 5.6 games per season and collected 2 spoons over just 7 years
Brisbane won an average of 8.1 games per season and collected 3 spoons over the decade
Sydney won an average of 8.2 games per season and collected 3 spoons over the decade

2000 to 2009

Carlton won an average of 8.1 games per season and collected 3 spoons over the decade
Richmond won an average of 8.5 games per season and collected 2 spoons over the decade
Melbourne won an average of 9.3 games per season and collected 2 spoons over the decade

Overall to Date

Leaving aside GCS and GWS as being too new, and Fitroy as being long since removed, I concur with the call that Richmond is the worst Club of the AFL era winning an average of 8.8 games per season and adding a pair of spoons to the cupboard with no silverware added.

A very close call to Melbourne who have collected 3 spoons, but have a slightly higher average wins per season at 9.2

Carlton would get my nod as 3rd worse with 10.7 wins per season average, but heavily influenced by collecting 3 spoons as well.

Brisbane and Sydney largely offset their early 90’s crapness by adding 3 Cups for Brisbane, 2 cups and a pair of GF losses for Sydney over the ensuing period.

See table below;

 

[Slax]

roo2macca
Slax

I've been bored on a rainy day at work, so I thought I'd put the theories to the test and go back since 1990 and stack up the seasons.
1 point for a win, .5 for a draw (man, Geelong and the Dogs have had heaps!!)

Summariesed below:


1990 to 1999

Fitzroy won an average of 5.6 games per season and collected 2 spoons over just 7 years
Brisbane won an average of 8.1 games per season and collected 3 spoons over the decade
Sydney won an average of 8.2 games per season and collected 3 spoons over the decade

2000 to 2009

Carlton won an average of 8.1 games per season and collected 3 spoons over the decade
Richmond won an average of 8.5 games per season and collected 2 spoons over the decade
Melbourne won an average of 9.3 games per season and collected 2 spoons over the decade

Overall to Date

Leaving aside GCS and GWS as being too new, and Fitroy as being long since removed, I concur with the call that Richmond is the worst Club of the AFL era winning an average of 8.8 games per season and adding a pair of spoons to the cupboard with no silverware added.

A very close call to Melbourne who have collected 3 spoons, but have a slightly higher average wins per season at 9.2

Carlton would get my nod as 3rd worse with 10.7 wins per season average, but heavily influenced by collecting 3 spoons as well.

Brisbane and Sydney largely offset their early 90’s crapness by adding 3 Cups for Brisbane, 2 cups and a pair of GF losses for Sydney over the ensuing period.

In my opinion when looking at the original post I believe that the discussion was to be about the worst individual team in any given year.

I also find the idea of comparing sides a bit of a laugh because it is very clear that the AFL does not operate on a level playing field and whilst the current administration is in place never will. Both Brisbane and Sydney have been beneficaries of favourable arrangements from the AFL that have allowed them access to more funds and players than other clubs like Richmond, Sydney is still benefiting from this currently. This in my opinion is making the AFL a joke, for the most part footballers rent not buy and rental prices really aren't that much different unless you are looking for a harbour view.

 

[Ketchup]

Hahahaha. What exactly have you been doing here, fella, if not hating? You tried to quote "modern era" statistics, got absolutely shredded and now are trying to once again peddle the "club orchestrated PEDs" argument that has been all but thrown out the window. Read a newspaper, peanut

By the way, "number two", just in case you missed it, it means poo.

Someone please show me where I was talking about the modern era. Please someone show me where i wrote those two words. Modern era, great, your still talking about 20 years ago.
Two-Number

1. Equivalent to the sum of one and one; one less than three; 2.
2. A group or unit of two people or things: "they would straggle home in ones and twos".

Nope, don't see anywhere in the dictionary where two is defined as human feces.

 

[Spector]

Fremantle have never won a premiership. At least the other clubs with shitty win rates won one at some point (VFL).

Every other team that has been "introduced" as a new team since it became the AFL (barring the two newest clubs who have only had a couple of seasons), has at least won a flag.

I think they might turn this around soon though (hopefully), their management has improved a lot.

 

[Proud SJW]

By that logic, it has to be Saint Kilda. Took them until 1966 to win a premiership - their only one since 1897. 69 years.
Hawthorn took what, 57 years or something.

So, to recap:

Have Fremantle won the most wooden spoons? No. Neither from 1990 onwards, nor in history.
Do Fremantle have the worst win loss record since 1990? No. Do they have the worst win/loss ratio in history? No.
Have Fremantle ever won a premiership? No. but neither have GC or GWC, and if we're talking historically then my first paragraph covers it. Ask me again in 50 years or so.
Have Fremantle been the worst performing team since 1990 in a single season? Maaaybe, in 2001. But it'd be a hater's stretch of logic.. You still have the Swans and Fitzroy of the late 90's in there. And Carlton. And GC, And GWS....
Do Fremantle have the worst win loss ratio in their inaugural seasons? No.
Do Fremantle have the worst record in terms of finals appearances since 1990? No. In history? I haven't looked it up - but my guess would be no.

No matter which way you look at it, and by which standard you use, Fremantle are not the worst team either in general since 1990, nor in a single season... whether you're talking since the beginnings of the VFL, the AFL, or since 1990.

No matter how much you might want them to be.

 

[Doctor Feel]

Given their personnel and supply, shouldn't it be Melbourne 08?

 

[mianfei]

None of the worst sides ever to play in this comp have been around in your lifetimes, fellas. I'd hate to think what would happen if a time machine matchup between 19th century St Kilda or WW1 University, v GWS or death's door Fitzroy or even the Bendigo Bombers eventuated...! Even on a bogged wet day synonymous with 1970's Moorabbin or the Western Oval, you could expect the modern drilled side to absolutely slaughter the ancients...

The trouble with that is that today’s players are sufficiently tall that who knows how hard it would be for them to get a firm footing on such a groundat the speeds they run. That is actually the striking thing about Footscray v West Coast form 1992, and it would be multiply striking if today’s players tried to play in those conditions I suppose: they are not designed for it and it is my belief people ignore the extent to which playing conditions and changes therein influence all sports. (For example in cricket: would Curtly Ambrose except in the driest weather have ever got a firm foothold on fully uncovered English or New Zealand pitches??)

Still, there is no doubt that players before 1919 were very largely amateur and the records some teams achieved are astonishingly bad. It is notable that no teams so good as 1897 to 1902 St. Kilda or 1911 to 1914 University were bad existed, which does suggest excluding them is fair. Their players were totally amateur and many probably never trained because they had jobs. Today’s players, certainly in dry or semi-dry weather, would be far too much for such a side.

I always exclude anything before 1919 from lists of “lowest scores” or “lowest winning scores” to take into account these differences.

You need to find years where the professionalism and fitness levels and also the overall competitiveness of the league starts to resemble today, and I think this starts around the end of the fifties, when circuit training etc forms the basis of the new concept of preseason training, and none of the sides are chopping blocks simply due to their name. It's all relative. I don't believe we've seen a team since 2000 or even last game Fitzroy that seriously matches the (expletive) of certain teams of fifty years ago, though...

Actually, the trend towards professionalism was very slow and began in the 1920s when Carlton, Richmond and Collingwood began to use their wealthy industrial and political patrons to recruit form the country and (with the Blues and Tigers) increase their payments to star players, something they continued to do until the war despite the Coulter Law. With the “middle-class trio” of Hawthorn, Melbourne and St. Kilda, professionalism did not fully emerge until the 1950s, but at least with the Hawks and Saints this was due to lack of patronage via the clubs’ distance from heavy industry and frequent hostility of local businessmen. In fact, without revenue sharing Hawthorn and St. Kilda would never have professionalised. Globally, as I know from the history of county cricket, professional sport has always depended on wealthy patrons.

Still, because of what the Blues and Tigers were doing, it is not possible to call the league “amateur” at any time since World War I, and listing the 1929 to 1931 North Melbourne, 1925 to 1953 Hawthorn and 1963 to 1966 Fitzroy sides is fair.

 

[Gibbke]

All good points, although I am drawn to old adage that in wet weather, "tall players don't get any shorter"...along with the superior fitness of today's players, this height advantage and ability to extricate would negate even the worst quagmires...

I also said "professionalism resembling today's standards", which the pre-war footy most certainly did not. You could even go back to the last VFL years and find working footy players...in the 1986 GF Record, there's a great shot of Justin Madden teaching the class and telling the interviewer that footy is a great way to get the kids attention on a Monday morning...never mind Simon Beasley turning up to training in his BMW after a day at the stock market, parking alongside the dozens of tradies utes and vans which every other Footscray player owned (Doug Hawkins story)...I'm just saying there's a point where the league started resembling what's there today, more consistently across all the clubs, and to me it's the 1950's going into the 60's...if you were bad from then on, in more level circumstances, then you really were bad with no good excuses...

Also must add, after still vivid memories of not only Curtly Ambrose's 7-1 against the Aussies in Perth (the only time I've actually felt fear in empathy for the batsmen while watching tv cricket!) and also David Boon's debut in Brisbane, batting with Allan Border on a hideously seaming wet wicket against bowlers Curtly would have slotted in nicely with, I can't imagine him not succeeding anywhere he damned well pleased...forget footholds...!

 

[gbatman]

You know what's amazing. That many of those sides went on to win premierships after those horrendous seasons. Fitzroy lions and Brisbane bears as the Brisbane lions, Collingwood, Sydney and Melbourne and St. Kilda played off in grand finals. Collingwood, Sydney and Brisbane also were runners up. Kind of gives supporters of poor teams hope.

Our Draft system WORKS

 

[mianfei]

Looking at Greater Western Sydney this year, 0-15 with a percentage of just under 50 for the second successive year, they must be one of the worst expansion teams in any league. Even in the NBA, the most nearly comparable major league in terms of limits to its talent pool, expansion teams did not match the ineptitude of such established teams as the 1992/1993 Dallas Mavericks and the 1997/1998 Denver Nuggets.

An overall record of 2-42 would be the worst for consecutive years since Fitzroy in 1963 and 1964, forty-nine years beforehand, and the worst percentage since St. Kilda in 1901 and 1902, one hundred and eleven years ago! With global warming and Docklands instead of Waverley and a cooler, wetter climate, it is certainly harder for expansion teams to establish themselves, but unless Greater Western Sydney, whom an old friend of mine called to his own embarrassment when I recalled the incident “Gay (expletive) Society”, improve soon people will question the AFL’s judgment that there was room for another team there.

Also must add, after still vivid memories of not only Curtly Ambrose's 7-1 against the Aussies in Perth (the only time I've actually felt fear in empathy for the batsmen while watching tv cricket!) and also David Boon's debut in Brisbane, batting with Allan Border on a hideously seaming wet wicket against bowlers Curtly would have slotted in nicely with, I can't imagine him not succeeding anywhere he damned well pleased...forget footholds...!

I want to say as little as I can, but have you ever read Mike Selvey’s article “The Problem of Pitches” in the 1989 Wisden or especially David Green’s “Dissastisfaction with English pitches” in 2001. The latter article especially is one which make me believe playing condition play a crucial role in determining how sports evolve, from pitch covering to roofed stadiums to new technology for turf.

 

[Brisbane2013]

collingwood

 

[Grechy]

As I keep telling Richmond supporters - Fitzroy has played in more finals series since 1982 than Richmond and we've been dead for more than half of that

That line is getting old and we are still around at least - show's how loyal our supporters are.

For me didn't see much but Richmond early 90s were horrendous as well.