What is the worst team in AFL history?

[Wonaeamirri33]

Good heavens, you were talking about Scully, not Jack

Yep, I got it wrong. Tres incroyable. Have deleted my post accordingly.

and not taking Nicnat.

That was not somehow a mistake. Watts being gangtackled 5 seconds after he first stepped onto the field when he was 18 doesn't make it a mistake either, of course.

The fact he's been consistently amongst our best since the start of 2011, has continued to perform even when almost nobody else was (such as against Geelong last year, and that Sydney match this year, for example), and has been BOG in both our wins so far this year, confirms that we made the right decision.

Nobody's ever been able to tell me how having Naitanui instead and expecting him to fill the need Watts does for us, would somehow improve our team, rather than weaken it further. Especially when our big deficiencies are in our ball-use and our run and spread around the ground.

We needed a skilful player with pace who could perform a variety of roles according to the situation, and we got one when we signed Jack Watts.

Naitanui's a good ruckman, when we already have enough good ruckmen (when half our squad isn't injured anyway) isn't a quality ball-user, or even close, and isn't a consistent mark either. That's just reality. It'd be extremely silly for us to have chosen him and magically expected him to perform as something other than a ruckman just because he's a nice guy and everyone likes him.

 

[mianfei]

They would have won the premiership any time in the first half of last century, but you can only rank them relative to their own time period.

I really doubt that: with conditions so different I am sure today’s players would have trouble adapting to the completely different climate in Perth before 1970 with the ball often impossible to handle in frequent rain or the much slower grounds that prevailed in Melbourne before ground rationalisation. Just look at how much trouble West Coast’s speedy and fit players had on a slow Western Oval in the second last round of 1992 - I don’t think even the best of today’s teams could do a thing on it the way they play now.

The paradox is that this would actually apply more to the really good teams than to the bad ones - at least regarding ground rationalisation which I suspect to have significantly reduced the proportion of the population who could conceivably be trained to succeed at AFL level.

 

[estibador]

I really doubt that: with conditions so different I am sure today’s players would have trouble adapting to the completely different climate in Perth before 1970 with the ball often impossible to handle in frequent rain or the much slower grounds that prevailed in Melbourne before ground rationalisation. Just look at how much trouble West Coast’s speedy and fit players had on a slow Western Oval in the second last round of 1992 - I don’t think even the best of today’s teams could do a thing on it the way they play now.

I disagree. Your example pits two teams from the same era together so they were at similar levels of development as far as the game goes. Thus all things being equal in that sense the Doggies experience in crap conditions gives them the edge.

But things would be far from equal if a team from today was pitted against, say, a 1950's team. Put even a crap team like GWS back there and the old-timers wouldn't know what hit them. Much fitter, much faster, better skilled, far better drilled, far more adept at clearing close congestion with their hands.

They would literally swarm the ball and run it up and down the field uncontested by running in packs and using handballs over the top. They'd be playing on and hitting targets on the lead while the old timers would do their stop, prop, loopy kick to the next contest routine. Meanwhile the modern team would have swarmed back and be in position to instantly rebound it staight back out.

Even crap conditions would suit the modern team. Once the game became congested the old-timers would cough up the ball every time when hit by the sort of repeat gang tackling pressure they'd never experience before.

The modern day team would run far harder from the very first bounce and be running far, far harder by the end. The only thing they would have to worry about would be protecting themselves from big hits over the ball because the umps wouldn't look after them like they do now. But in return they'd be free to dish out those hits themselves, and with their speed, size and superior core strength players hit far harder these day.

 

[mianfei]

That’s an interesting list, Ron the Bear.

It just shows how no side really had as bad a record between 1919 and 1986 as the 2-52 (yes, two wins and fifty-two losses) North Melbourne sides between 1929 and 1931. More than that, unlike the three winless teams since, they had only one flirt with a victory apart from their upset win over Footscray in 1929 and a one-quarter win against St. Kilda in the fifth round of 1930. Fitzroy might have gone 6-66 (a record that strangely rhymes) between 1963 and 1966, but they were only twice (St. Kilda in 1963, Geelong in 1966) really slaughtered like some very early or recent teams have been. In fact the Lions were less awful in 1964 when they won no games than in 1963 and 1966 when they did win one.

To be bad you have to be bad for many years. Ask Richmond, St Kilda and other teams in the beginning when the recruiters knew little and (expletive) was brought, in moulded and spat out over years and decades. Only then can you appreciate what it takes to form a truly (expletive) team

Actually, that’s often not the reason really bad teams were bad - either recently or in the past.

The reason Fitzroy in the middle 1960s were so bad was that immigrants from southern Europe who had no knowledge of Australian football were settling in the inner-city regions where the Lions’ previous generations of supporters were located. As a result, Fitzroy had no support base to produce crowds adequate to generate the finances needed to compete for the growing market for top country, interstate or unzoned suburban players - nor did Fitzroy have any history of wealthy patrons to generate this sort of support.

The same is true for South Melbourne in the same period, whilst with Sydney and Brisbane in the early 1990s the problem was rent control that prevented private owners charging ticket prices appropriate to less land-glutted regions, as well as the fact that rugby league was established as the dominant sport on the east coast.

It is tough to say that even perfect management decisions could have made these teams really good.

 

[Gongswan]

I went to some of those Sydney games in the early 90's, mainlydragged alongby Collingwood and Carton supporters, my only memory is thinking how dreadful they were

 

[tonk]

I went to some of those Sydney games in the early 90's, mainlydragged alongby Collingwood and Carton supporters, my only memory is thinking how dreadful they were

It was awful.

 

[windyhill]

coll '99. rich ,where do you start with that ? carl three spoons after never winning one, too many options.

 

[joeyavalanche]

Freo dockers

 

[RogersResults]

That’s an interesting list, Ron the Bear.

It just shows how no side really had as bad a record between 1919 and 1986 as the 2-52 (yes, two wins and fifty-two losses) North Melbourne sides between 1929 and 1931. More than that, unlike the three winless teams since, they had only one flirt with a victory apart from their upset win over Footscrayin 1929 and a one-quarter win against St. Kilda in the fifth round of 1930.

Even worse: Nth Melbourne won two matches out of 59 from round 16 1928 to round 2 1932.
(North's win over St Kilda in round 5 1930 was won by winning the 2nd and last quarters of the match.)

Fitzroy might have gone 6-66 (a record that strangely rhymes) between 1963 and 1966, but they were only twice (St. Kilda in 1963, Geelong in 1966) really slaughtered like some very early or recent teams have been. In fact the Lions were less awful in 1964 when they won no games than in 1963 and 1966 when they did win one.Actually, that’s often not the reason really bad teams were bad - either recently or in the past.

Matches played that were losses of 12 goals or more:​

​

1963-1966 (6% of matches played - 27/448) 2009-2012 (11.4% of matches played - 88/774)​

'Thrashings' in the current time are nearly twice as common as they were back in 1963-66, but Fitzroy had nearly 5 times the average number of them. Will be interesting to see the Giant's and the Sun's figures once they have each completed four seasons.​

The reason Fitzroy in the middle 1960s were so bad was that immigrants from southern Europe who had no knowledge of Australian football were settling in the inner-city regions where the Lions’ previous generations of supporters were located. As a result, Fitzroy had no support base to produce crowds adequate to generate the finances needed to compete for the growing market for top country, interstate or unzoned suburban players - nor did Fitzroy have any history of wealthy patrons to generate this sort of support.

I suspect it was more complex than that. Other inner-suburban clubs faced similar situations but found solutions.

whilst with Sydney and Brisbane in the early 1990s the problem was , as well as the fact that rugby league was established as the dominant sport on the east coast.

"rent control that prevented private owners charging ticket prices appropriate to less land-glutted regions"???
Whatever that is supposed to mean it was obviously overcome by both Sydney and Brisbane from the later 1990s onwards.

 

[TubbsFarquhar]

How has 2011 Port not been mentioned? Absolutely shocking, the worst side to not the win the spoon, even worse than 2008 West Coast and 2003 Carlton and worst of all, Craig called them a powerful side after we somehow managed to lose to them.

 

[dymot]

How has 2011 Port not been mentioned? Absolutely shocking, the worst side to not the win the spoon, even worse than 2008 West Coast and 2003 Carlton and worst of all, Craig called them a powerful side after we somehow managed to lose to them.

ROFL take the glasses off there have been far worse sides not to win the spoon.

 

[TubbsFarquhar]

ROFL take the glasses off there have been far worse sides not to win the spoon.

Me being a Crows fan has nothing to do with it. Port were horrific that year and were very lucky to avoid the spoon. Who have been worse sides to avoid the spoon?

 

[Blues_Man]

As the title suggests what is the worst team in AFL (not VFL) history? Here are the teams which have finished last in each season from 1991 onwards.

Year - Team - Wins - Percentage
1991 - Brisbane Lions - 3 - 69.53%
1992 - Sydney Swans - 3 - 74.13%
1993 - Sydney Swans - 1 - 63.32%
1994 - Sydney Swans - 4 - 78.07%
1995 - Fitzroy Lions - 2 - 58.17%
1996 - Fitzroy Lions - 1 - 49.47%
1997 - Melbourne Demons - 4 - 60.81%
1998 - Brisbane Lions - 5 - 75.83%
1999 - Collingwood Magpies - 4 - 84.82%
2000 - St Kilda Saints - 2 - 70.51%
2001 - Fremantle Dockers - 2 - 72.02%
2002 - Carlton Blues - 3 - 73.13%
2003 - Western Bulldogs - 3 - 74.79%
2004 - Richmond Togers - 4 - 69.24%
2005 - Carlton Blues - 4 - 75.51%
2006 - Carlton Blues - 1 - 74.16%
2007 - Richmond Tigers - 3 - 77.18%
2008 - Melbourne Demons - 3 - 62.61%

AFL/VFL all the same comp champ ..no matter how you try and rewrite History to try and hide your clubs ordinary past.

 

[dymot]

Me being a Crows fan has nothing to do with it. Port were horrific that year and were very lucky to avoid the spoon. Who have been worse sides to avoid the spoon?

St Kilda 2001 for starters and 1994 Fitzroy would give pORT A run for their money. Not to mention the years where North and Hawthorn would play once and the winner would avoid the spoon.

 

[Gibbke]

None of the worst sides ever to play in this comp have been around in your lifetimes, fellas. I'd hate to think what would happen if a time machine matchup between 19th century St Kilda or WW1 University, v GWS or death's door Fitzroy or even the Bendigo Bombers eventuated...! Even on a bogged wet day synonymous with 1970's Moorabbin or the Western Oval, you could expect the modern drilled side to absolutely slaughter the ancients...

You need to find years where the professionalism and fitness levels and also the overall competitiveness of the league starts to resemble today, and I think this starts around the end of the fifties, when circuit training etc forms the basis of the new concept of preseason training, and none of the sides are chopping blocks simply due to their name. It's all relative. I don't believe we've seen a team since 2000 or even last game Fitzroy that seriously matches the shitness of certain teams of fifty years ago, though...

 

[Proud SJW]

Only said Dockers because they haven't made a GF yet, didn't take West Coast or Adelaide as long.

West Coast and Adelaide had significantly more advantages at inception, not the least of which was they were effectively state teams to begin with.

And then, of course, by way of direct answer to your rather silly little comment regarding how long it took them to win a premiership...
How long did it take Hawthorn?

 

[ApplecrossWC]

I don't think it's fair to compare Fitzroy from 95 and 96 in there as the AFL were actively trying to kill them.

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

West Coast and Adelaide had significantly more advantages at inception, not the least of which was they were effectively state teams to begin with.

And then, of course, by way of direct answer to your rather silly little comment regarding how long it took them to win a premiership...
How long did it take Hawthorn?

Hawthorn sure did make up for how long it took, winning 10 since then, yet, Fremantle will still be making excuses in 50 years.

 

[Proud SJW]

Sounds like you're making one right now.

 

[the harry]

West Coast and Adelaide had significantly more advantages at inception, not the least of which was they were effectively state teams to begin with.

And then, of course, by way of direct answer to your rather silly little comment regarding how long it took them to win a premiership...
How long did it take Hawthorn?

State teams? Someone needs to post RoyalEagles post about how our list was complied.

You only think it was a state team because they performed, it was strictly good drafting and player developemnt.

 

[Proud SJW]

State teams? Someone needs to post RoyalEagles post about how our list was complied.

You only think it was a state team because they performed, it was strictly good drafting and player developemnt.

No argument about that, on my side. You did very well. My comment was aimed at the guy above stating that Freo was the worst team in history. First he was shot down on stats, then he tried claiming it was on GF records... I felt obliged to shoot him again. Some people just won't stay down.

With regard to what I said, though, you can't deny your supporter base (and by extension, finances) had a huge boost from the beginning simply because you were the state AFL team, for a while. That doesn't only apply to the Eagles... Adelaide and Sydney had much the same advantage. First team in gets the numbers, it's really that simple.
It's what I had in mind when I wrote that, not necessarily player development and recruiting... anyone who claims the dockers are better than the Eagles in this regard (at least in the past) has a few screws loose.

 

[the harry]

snip

Oh c'mon, I searched and found the post that disproves the beliefe we were handed a flag! Can we just pretent that you weren't so reasonable so I can post it anyway?

Eagle87 is responsible for this.

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

 

[Proud SJW]

Did you... actually read what I said?

Just asking.

* Edit... Lol. Perhaps I should have. I kinda missed that first line

 

[the harry]

Did you... actually read what I said?

Just asking.

Yes. But I wanted to post it anyway.

 

[windyhill]

1925-60, just never happened, or so hawfforn fans say.