Mega Thread What Shane Tuck Does

[Dystraction]

Interesting that when Hardwick talks up that we beat the Cats its taken as gospel, but when he says that its Cotchin, Martin and Foley that have effectively kept Tuck out of the side it's rubbish.

When Hardwick says Richmond beat Geelong in clearances he can back that up with statistical fact.

When he says that Cotchin, Martin and Foley are keeping Tuck out they are just words.

When Grigg is replaced in side by Tuck that is an action and we all know actions speak louder than words.

 

[RECORDS!]

When Hardwick says Richmond beat Geelong in clearances he can back that up with statistical fact.

When he says that Cotchin, Martin and Foley are keeping Tuck out they are just words.

When Grigg is replaced in side by Tuck that is an action and we all know actions speak louder than words.

Well said. RT?

 

[_RT_]

When Hardwick says Richmond beat Geelong in clearances he can back that up with statistical fact.

When he says that Cotchin, Martin and Foley are keeping Tuck out they are just words.

When Grigg is replaced in side by Tuck that is an action and we all know actions speak louder than words.

So as long as Hardwick can back up what he says with facts posters have no problem with it, but when he gives a valid reason as to why Tuck has been kept out of the side, where he also has no reason to lie and it differs from what posters want to believe, posters suggest that its crap.

 

[tigerfoxgurl]

Hardwick was making the parallel that they were all inside midfielders and therefore competing for the same spots.

But in reality, cotchin, martin and foley aren't in the same class as tuck is in clearances.

Richmond went from 6th in the AFL with Tuck in the side for clearances to somewhere near the bottom without him.

From a development sense, it doesn't make sense that cotchin and martin who are very skilled, and foley who is coming back from long term injury are your primary clearance players.

How much better would the team be if cotchin and martin played outside roles, while someone like deledio who is fully developed physically and tuck do the tough in and under clearance work. Then in a couple years when they are bigger and have more endurance and can compete consistently in the centre, they can go in there. By then, Tuck would have retired and we would have found decent outside players to replace the like of edwards and co who just murder the football.

 

[MightyTiger]

We have beaten 1 side, Brisbane, while Tuck was playing in the VFL. And I would argue pretty strongly that beating Brisbane the way we did does not equate to playing good football.

He was out injured for the Freo win.

Champ stop embarrassing yourself, I already provided you the stat's, Tuck played as a Sub 2 out of our 3 wins, he started the game on the field I believe against Brisbane and injured himself in the first quarter.

In our 3 wins he had a disposal count of 11, 7 and 12, how can you possibly say that Tuck was the reason we won these games? Yes he did start as the sub but he didn't make that much of an impact in any of the 2 games (Injured in the 3rd).

Stop bullshitting yourself and everyone you are trying to argue with, Tuck is a good player I am not doubting that, but he isn't the saviour you or anyone else is making him out to be.

 

[RECORDS!]

So as long as Hardwick can back up what he says with facts posters have no problem with it, but when he gives a valid reason as to why Tuck has been kept out of the side, where he also has no reason to lie and it differs from what posters want to believe, posters suggest that its crap.

No reason to lie? Oh yeah 'The reason we arent playing Tucky is that one of our coaches has a personal issue with Shane, and we had him sign a contract whereby if he didnt play 14 games this year we didnt have to keep him. And we dont want to'.

Now the contract issue was reported in the media and hasnt been refuted by the club so I assume you believe that.

Now I can tell you from the horses mouth that the Campbell issue is real as well.

 

[RECORDS!]

Champ stop embarrassing yourself, I already provided you the stat's, Tuck played as a Sub 2 out of our 3 wins, he started the game on the field I believe against Brisbane and injured himself in the first quarter.

In our 3 wins he had a disposal count of 11, 7 and 12, how can you possibly say that Tuck was the reason we won these games? Yes he did start as the sub but he didn't make that much of an impact in any of the 2 games (Injured in the 3rd).

Stop bullshitting yourself and everyone you are trying to argue with, Tuck is a good player I am not doubting that, but he isn't the saviour you or anyone else is making him out to be.

Relax mate, noone is saying he is a saviour. But that he deserves a game and isnt getting one is craziness. And to suggest that the team is better without him in it is even crazier. I never said that we won those games because of Tuck, you on the other hand said that we were winning early in the season when he was at Coburg, which is total rubbish. There are only 2 people embarrassing themselves, you and RT.

 

[MightyTiger]

Relax mate, noone is saying he is a saviour. But that he deserves a game and isnt getting one is craziness. And to suggest that the team is better without him in it is even crazier. I never said that we won those games because of Tuck, you on the other hand said that we were winning early in the season when he was at Coburg, which is total rubbish. There are only 2 people embarrassing themselves, you and RT.

So Tuck playing as a sub in 2 games and having close to no impact and a 3rd game where he was injured in the first quarter was a reason why we were winning games early on?

If you cant acknowledge the fact that the team was playing some good footy without him being a major contributor then we have no reason to discuss this matter even further as it is clear you are simply being one eyed about Tuck and his contribution to the team.

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

firstly damien hardwick said

"but with Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin, Nathan Foley, all those sort of players, which one do I leave out?"

so basically he named our three best midfielders, and then grouped the rest of them together (most of them are sh1t). it is one of these "all of those sort of players" which is keeping tuck out of team, which was proven when grigg was withdrawn that tuck came in. which you people have already said, contradicting yourselves.

i have also heard the campbell does not like tuck.(not saying this is the reason tuck isnt playing) but with all of these people saying it. i think there is smoke where there is fire.

in the end. tuck should be playing.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Hardwick was making the parallel that they were all inside midfielders and therefore competing for the same spots.

But in reality, cotchin, martin and foley aren't in the same class as tuck is in clearances.

Richmond went from 6th in the AFL with Tuck in the side for clearances to somewhere near the bottom without him.

From a development sense, it doesn't make sense that cotchin and martin who are very skilled, and foley who is coming back from long term injury are your primary clearance players.

How much better would the team be if cotchin and martin played outside roles, while someone like deledio who is fully developed physically and tuck do the tough in and under clearance work. Then in a couple years when they are bigger and have more endurance and can compete consistently in the centre, they can go in there. By then, Tuck would have retired and we would have found decent outside players to replace the like of edwards and co who just murder the football.

to me...and i bet to a lot of other posters on BF as well...that makes perfect sense...

And if i was coach Tucky would be in...

 

[NQTIGER]

I will call a spade a spade, dimma is out of his depth, his preparation for the job interview at the bombers was unproffesional, his laptop didnt work....

Tell me all you proffesionals out there, when you go to a job interview are you prepared? Especially when youre down to the last two applicants for a job that was worth 4-500k.

Me i would check my documents and have everything prepared....but thats me.

The trip to Darwin, well enough said ....poor preparation.

The team is tired.........poor preparation.

No plan B C or D and for that matter im not sure we have a plan A based on what we are witnessing...


Comments Please

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Its damming...

 

[Damo80]

Been reading through this thread with interest, and at the same time watching AFL 360 on Fox and noticed that Tuck made the Supercoach (?) team of the round... tho I am reminded of the words of Homer Simpson: "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."

Anyway, my thoughts are that we're a mile off being a good side, and with only 1 regular player north of 25 that I'm aware of (Newman), having one more is surely not going to spoil the development of our younger brigade.

I would imagine playing in a side year after year, game after game where you're copping beatings could do a lot more damage to an 18 to 20 year old's development and confidence than having to wait, and develop in the VFL and only getting your turn once you've earnt it.

 

[NQTIGER]

Been reading through this thread with interest, and at the same time watching AFL 360 on Fox and noticed that Tuck made the Supercoach (?) team of the round... tho I am reminded of the words of Homer Simpson:"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."

Anyway, my thoughts are that we're a mile off being a good side, and with only 1 regular player north of 25 that I'm aware of (Newman), having one more is surely not going to spoil the development of our younger brigade.

I would imagine playing in a side year after year, game after game where you're copping beatings could do a lot more damage to an 18 to 20 year old's development and confidence than having to wait, and develop in the VFL and only getting your turn once you've earnt it.

surely you jest, getting belted week after week helps build character, bling said as much when he left, cant you tell how well lids has developed?

When the chips are down all our kids dig deep and fight their way out...........now THAT is the way to develop.

Stuff this trying to win games caper.

 

[Damo80]

surely you jest, getting belted week after week helps build character,

No jesting... I can understand the building of character through playing in a struggling side. But if there is no improvement, and no light at the end of the tunnel, you would have to think there comes a point where you lose confidence.

I'm not sure you want to have a side in 3 or 4 years time where most of the players have played 100 games for 75 losses. Not exactly a winning culture within the playing groung, although I do understand that this may build character and experience. Perhaps not the worst thing provided the coaches are able to keep the bigger, longer term picture in the players' minds.

Anyway, my key point is that we have next to no players over 25, so it's not hard to find a spot for Tuck if he deserves one. I think he does for now. And I think it could actually take some heat off one or two younger guys. Heck, they might even learn a thing or two by watching the way he goes about it.

[Edit] I've just realised you may have been being sarcastic there... wasn't completely clear to me one way or the other!

 

[Rayzorwire]

Foley, Cotchin, Martin, Deledio - they've all had high possession counts for the last month with Tuck out RT, but we've been routinely smashed.

So I guess, following what you're passing off as sound logic, NONE OF THEM are effective enough with the ball and therefore NONE OF THEM deserve a game? We'd better start from scratch?

The only other arguments left to you are things like that they're not getting the ball in places where they can be more damaging, or that they've had a hard season with not enough support, or that the coaching staff are utterly clueless, which as you well know, in all cases would require you admitting you were wrong and I was right (which I won't hold my breath for).

This has become a publicity nightmare for Hardwick.

What Records and others have said is true, Tucky decked Campbell at training way back in '04 and because of it he couldn't get a senior game despite good VFL form until the end of '04 when we completely ran out of players (Frawley tried some shockers ahead of him).

Wallace made Johnson captain ahead of Campbell when he arrived, ignored Campbell's advice to de-list Tuck and instead poured a heap of work into him (we had only 2-3 genuine midfielders), to the extent that when whips got cracking in pre-season of 2005 Tuck was killing Campbell and everyone bar Coughlan every time they contested the ball at training and went on to have an outstanding season in '05, including two Brownlow performances where he smashed Brisbane and Port's GF midfielders who were the best in the game back then. Those were the days before his legs went and he could kick the ball 70m off a couple of steps, different player to today.

Campbell got increasingly pissy, including so many instances of refusing to give Tuck the ball unless he absolutely had no choice it became like watching a sulking five year old play 'team' football - he'd have rather gone headfirst over the boundary fence than give Tuck the ball and it was so obvious when you knew what was going on. When Wallace asked him to play on at the end of '05 because we needed him for depth he refused, despite being fit enough, partly because Wallace's arrival meant he'd lost his place in the pecking order as a player (back to being a 2nd rotation mid/forward/wing/utility), but more importantly, because he'd lost the captaincy and his political position, he had no power to ostracise and harass other players anymore, as he did to Ottens, Knights and so many others over the years while he was a 'leader' of the club.

Wallace didn't tolerate that shit (hence the instant Johnson appointment), no half decent experienced coach does; you can't be a successful club without nearly everyone on the list (and all the key players) being united and doing their best to lift each other up and make each other better players for the good of everyone. That never happened at Richmond while Campbell was a key leader of the playing group and it's arguably the no.1 reason we had such a long finals drought despite having the talent to be there more often.

So Campbell exits end of 2005, then returns at the beginning of pre-season 2009 as an appointment of the board (i.e. not by Wallace's choice), which just happens, by pure coincidence of course, to be the moment we go from being a side who beat the eventual premiers at the end of 2008 and looked finals bound for 2009, to a broken rabble sacking its coach because of massive internal player unrest and players refusing to put in on the field.

And now, after three years of a return to 'The Way of the Cambo,' it's like a flashback to his career - here we are watching a totally uncompetitive Richmond and cringing in abject shame as Robert Walls points out how often our players are bickering amongst each other on the field and off, refusing to obey instructions, playing like they don't care, have terrible body language, and all the other things we've had to swallow too many times before.

Richmond, Rinse and Repeat.

And people wonder why some of us treasure Shane Tuck; an honest, reliable bloke who gets everything out of what he was born with to compete with the best and win more often than not, and wouldn't hesitate to crawl over broken glass after the footy for his club and his teammates - and on less money than all but the youngest kids.

It's a lot like the sympathy I feel for Matty Knights, poor bugger had to cop being stabbed in the back by Campbell for the last part of his career instead of ending on the high he so richly deserved, then when his big break as a coach comes, there's the same type of 'me first, club second,' morale sapping dog in the form of Matthew Lloyd - a bloke who Sheedy gave free reign to 'get rid of whichever players he didn't like' when he appointed him captain - just ruining things for him all over again in the most inexcusable ways.

We'd be entitled to ask and wonder how much of Hardwick's 'culture' is from the Sheedy/Lloyd man-fetish 'get rid of the ones you don't like' era at Essendon? That culture has brought Essendon completely undone in the end and the damage reverberated through into all future coaching tenures - it literally can spread like a cancer.

And before anyone wants to get into pretending these things about Campbell aren't true, just rumour or whatever, I'd point out that most of them are so well known publicly that they're on his Wikipedia page and lots of other places. Most times he's mentioned in public someone feels obligated to include his smelly baggage.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

And people wonder why some of us treasure Shane Tuck; an honest, reliable bloke who gets everything out of what he was born with to compete with the best and win more often than not, and wouldn't hesitate to crawl over broken glass after the footy for his club and his teammates - and on less money than all but the youngest kids.

Thats the type of spirit we want at Tigerland...

You cannot develope that sort of spirit with a trendy slogan like 'development' if the young kids are not...

Fighting for form in the magoos to earn their team spots...then playing with a hardened player that demonstrates how to play contested footy...

Thats what i call 'development' of a player and winning team culture...

And not just being 'gifted' a spot in the side because RFC ned to get games into kids...

Fight for your spot son...fight...just dont give us the TTaylor attitude...

 

[_RT_]

Foley, Cotchin, Martin, Deledio - they've all had high possession counts for the last month with Tuck out RT, but we've been routinely smashed.

So I guess, following what you're passing off as sound logic, NONE OF THEM are effective enough with the ball and therefore NONE OF THEM deserve a game? We'd better start from scratch?

The only other arguments left to you are things like that they're not getting the ball in places where they can be more damaging, or that they've had a hard season with not enough support, or that the coaching staff are utterly clueless, which as you well know, in all cases would require you admitting you were wrong and I was right (which I won't hold my breath for).

How about the arguement that I've been suggesting all along and that is as a collective unit we're simply not good enough and need to keep turning over players who may have been decent servants of the club but just aren't good enough to take us any further than what they already have?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Points which have risen within this thread :

• Campbell hates Tuck is behind the reason Tuck isn't getting game . Sack Campbell if he can't put personal difference aside for the benefit of the organistaion , show him the door.

• Grigg is an inside midfielder like Tuck, and due to his age advantage is keeping Tuck out of the side. - I to wanted to believe we had recruited another inside midfielder which pocessed similar positive attributes to Shane Tuck , fact is Grigg is a squib HBF , he and Houli haven't added anything other than HBF depth to the club, massive fail. Both in fact are modern day Jordan McMahon's.

• The effectiveness or worth of Shane Tuck within the side should be judged on how the side has gone without him within the side, win/loss ratio, or based on stats such as clearances, or the possession count of other midfielders. - Bullshit, sides can regularly be matched in clearance counts, it's the quality oif the clearance which has greater significance, which inturn is heavily reliant upon space when delivering from the clearance. Possession counts are very much the same, lets not foget Tuck played most of the first half in the midfield against Geelong and we lost that half by 61 points, without him in the middle in the last half we lost by 1 point and I'd suggest where alot better around clearances.

What Shane Tuck does :
Positives :
- He has elite ability to read the play, most likely in the top 1-2% currently within the game.
- Has extremely good courage and core strength.
Both these allow him to amass some very , very impressive numbers, such as clearances / tackles and overall possessions.

Negatives :
- He over commits to the contest regularly, which means should the opposition get the ball and have time to give off before he gets to them the opposition has an extra player still within the contest, and generally leads to an easy clearance to the opposition.
- For someone who reads the game so remarkably well , he regularly does one of the most alarming, stupid and most annoying acts upon a football field. He regularly calls for the ball 1-2 mtrs from a team mates , who is running toward goal, with his back to the goal, rather than allowing the ball carrier a path and creating a block . He also regularly runs into space that a team mate has created to lead into ?

 

[evo]

Love him or hate him, Shane Tuck has worn the jumper with pride and honor. He puts his head over the ball and his body on the line. Never shirks a contest and will win his own ball. The match committee, and in particular Wayne Campbell, have tried every excuse to not have him in the best 22. Last year, they rated Adam Thompson ahead of him. He missed the first few games and when selected, we started to win some games. He brings a presence to the team and adds some hardness to the contest. He is no passenger in a side that has many passengers. If he is out of form - drop him - like anyone else.

So his "poor disposal" is one of his issues. Laughable. Edwards, Grigg, Jackson, White all have poorer disposal. Sure, I've seek Tuck butcher the ball, but when he does, he will chase down the ball for a second effort, while other adjust their hairstyle.

The way he has been treated this year is disgraceful, and reminds me of the way we treated Matthew Knights late in his career. Ironically, it is the same individual (Campbell) that is the REAL problem. Should have let him go to North when he held a gun to our head.

I don't care how old he is, he is in our best 18 players, and right now, the club should be rewarding our loyalty by picking the best possible side every week until the season ends. Tucky bleeds for the jumper, and sets the example for the younger guys.

agree.

In one game, after such a long time out of seniors mind you, he has put in a better performance than any of Jackson, White or Edward's performances all year.

It's a bit ridiculous.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

How about the arguement that I've been suggesting all along and that is as a collective unit we're simply not good enough and need to keep turning over players who may have been decent servants of the club but just aren't good enough to take us any further than what they already have?

No RT that is not how it works at all and you know it.
It's about the player. The players capacity to contribute to the cause.Hardwick and Jack the blind miner know in Tucks case that is not a problem.

So you cull players who are not able to contribute because they aren't up to the required level ,ones who never got there,are no longer there or show no signs of ever getting there of which we have countless.Tuck fits none of those critereas.
To get others with experience in you trade something another club values and part of that process is being a good salesman and dressing the item and appear to value it yourself.Hawthorn do it well,Essendon did for years.Imagine us shopping Tuck around? Laughable.

Just a big nasty balls up.

 

[Bruce Monteath]

From the Herald-sun

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...on-saints-the-gf/story-fn6cisdj-1226102409452


TUCK GONE?

Shane Tuck will likely be at another club next year given the Tigers' inability to find a spot for him.

If his management does go spruiking they should take Champion Data's kicking statistics with them.

Last weekend was just one isolated game, but his statistics were impressive.

The perceived knock on Tuck has always been his kicking skills, but he ran at 91 per cent overall effectiveness against a Geelong side famous for its crushing pressure.

His kicking effectiveness was 82 per cent, with nine effective kicks, one clanger, and one ineffective kick.

As a comparison, Trent Cotchin had 13 effective kicks, nine ineffective kicks, and three kick clangers.

Cotchin runs at 60.5 kicking effectiveness per cent for the year, while Tuck is at 72 per cent, well above the competition average of 65.8 per cent.

As Damien Hardwick said post-match, he can't find a spot for everyone.

''Tucky played his role today and did it very well but with (Dustin) Martin, (Nathan) Foley, Cotchin, which one do I leave out? So that's the question," he said.
"But Tucky has been a star with the way he accepts things, he knows where he's at and he performed a really good role today so we were really happy with his game today.''

Hardwick lauded him again in his message to members today.

But Tuck is not part of the next premiership at Richmond, so the club must find out what else is on its list.

If GWS offered him a two-year contract up north, perhaps it would suit both Richmond and the newest expansion club."


It's ironic while he's not considered in our next premiership (although probably true), many tout him as a good fit for a team that doesn't yet play in the AFL.

 

[Goldust]

firstly damien hardwick said

"but with Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin, Nathan Foley, all those sort of players, which one do I leave out?"

so basically he named our three best midfielders, and then grouped the rest of them together (most of them are sh1t). it is one of these "all of those sort of players" which is keeping tuck out of team, which was proven when grigg was withdrawn that tuck came in. which you people have already said, contradicting yourselves.

i have also heard the campbell does not like tuck.(not saying this is the reason tuck isnt playing) but with all of these people saying it. i think there is smoke where there is fire.

in the end. tuck should be playing.

Midfielders or potential midfielders Tuck is better than ..... Jackson, Edwards, Grigg, at this stage Conca and most everyone else aside from Cotchin, Martin and Deledio when he plays there!

Do those bagging Tuck think it strange that the media as a collective goes in to bat for Tucky every week, as do a lot of opposition supporters.

The whole situation is farcical!

Sunday was only one game, but hard to ignore his impact!

 

[_RT_]

No RT that is not how it works at all and you know it.
It's about the player. The players capacity to contribute to the cause.Hardwick and Jack the blind miner know in Tucks case that is not a problem.

So you cull players who are not able to contribute because they aren't up to the required level ,ones who never got there,are no longer there or show no signs of ever getting there of which we have countless.Tuck fits none of those critereas.
To get others with experience in you trade something another club values and part of that process is being a good salesman and dressing the item and appear to value it yourself.Hawthorn do it well,Essendon did for years.Imagine us shopping Tuck around? Laughable.

Just a big nasty balls up.

We did shop Tuck around a couple of years back after his 3rd/4th top 5 B&F finish and got little to no interest. Yet here we are a couple of years later and posters are wondering why we aren't playing him as much as they would like.

 

[NQTIGER]

We did shop Tuck around a couple of years back after his 3rd/4th top 5 B&F finish and got little to no interest. Yet here we are a couple of years later and posters are wondering why we aren't playing him as much as they would like.

What has that got to do with his contribution on sunday or anyother day for that matter, You cant be serious about this ?

We shopped him around and there were no takers, Carlton shopped Fevola around and he got picked up, which one worked out?

Just because there were no takers doesnt mean they guy is washed up.

Crikey pattison got picked up , how did that work out?

What about JON?

how can you possibly value a players contribution to a club based on what his trade value is.

If we go back a while, magpies picked up Luke ball the saints couldnt find a spot for him...was that a good decison by the saints?

You believed the spin from wallace and now you are being sucked in by more spin.