Which list would you want? Richmond, Carlton, Geelong

[Football Tragic]

They're not "supposedly" promising, they are objectively promising. That doesn't mean they are all guaranteed to reach their current, projected ceilings, but they're being given a lot of unexpected games due to our injury situation, which is accelerating their progress (or, in some cases, may allow us to more quickly identify deficiencies and either move on or work through them).

At the moment, I don't know if our season will end with a whimper, or if we'll be having another red hot go in September, but I'm certainly having fun watching events unfold and waiting to find out. In either case, and more relevant to this thread, I am absolutely certain that what we're going through right now, and the games these promising players are getting, is going to result in a team that is stronger next year than it is right now.

Again - speculation. No one can say with any certainty based on undeniable evidence, that Carlton, Richmond or Geelong's youth is going to be stronger than another teams. We can guess based on history, given that younger players tend to improve with age, but we can't say whose is going to improve more other than to beat our chests and with utter bias state that our team will be the best. I'm sure Geelong's youth are 'objectively promising' for some supporters and even 'experts' but in the end, its all speculation.

Richmond and Geelong have a great track record of developing youth but only the future will prove who is better.

 

[Conca Cuddle]

Hopper & Taranto's best years are going to be spent outside the eight.

Collingwood's core was young back in 2019-2020.
They are going to be in a premiership window for the next 3 years.

Maybe you're right. But that's now what I said. I also don't think even some of the most optimistic Pies supporters would have predicted finishing 17th and then making a prelim the next year. Half of their under 25's from 2020-2021 are no longer at the club. I'm certainly not saying we will do as they have done, but regenerating lists can happen far faster than years gone by.
Time will tell though!

 

[SplintWhisky]

List on Paper (i.e. No off field crap) - Carlton, they have a lot of talent but it seems that off field they seem to have people lining up to throw shit at fans
List with great Injury management - Richmond, We have a good list but too bad most of it is unfit/injured
List in the real world - Geelong, off field and on field they are strong. Sure a small number of their older players are starting to break down but there is a core that has been in finals for a majority of their long career.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Maybe you're right. But that's now what I said. I also don't think even some of the most optimistic Pies supporters would have predicted finishing 17th and then making a prelim the next year. Half of their under 25's from 2020-2021 are no longer at the club. I'm certainly not saying we will do as they have done, but regenerating lists can happen far faster than years gone by.
Time will tell though!

Collingwood didn't regenerate their list though. 14 of their current best 22 played the 2020 semi final against Geelong and Sidebottom was missing. So 15 of the best 22 are unchanged.

They had gradual improvement to what was already a finals team with guys like Cox, Cameron, J Daicos, Quaynor, De Goey, Moore, Noble, etc getting better. Then they added a generational talent (N Daicos) and a group of good, cheap role players (Mitchell, Hill, McStay, McCreary).

Compare that to Richmond now who are relying much more on their older players than 2020 Collingwood. In 3 years time Reiwoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Grimes, Pickett, Prestia and Lynch are all likely to be gone. With significant salary cap and draft capital already committed you'll do well to just replace that quality let alone improve.

And you're coming from further back. Collingwood went runners up, top 4 and top 8 from 2018-2020 whereas Richmond by the end of this year will have only snuck into finals once in the last 3 years.

 

[Conca Cuddle]

Collingwood didn't regenerate their list though. 14 of their current best 22 played the 2020 semi final against Geelong and Sidebottom was missing. So 15 of the best 22 are unchanged.

They had gradual improvement to what was already a finals team with guys like Cox, Cameron, J Daicos, Quaynor, De Goey, Moore, Noble, etc getting better. Then they added a generational talent (N Daicos) and a group of good, cheap role players (Mitchell, Hill, McStay, McCreary).

Compare that to Richmond now who are relying much more on their older players than 2020 Collingwood. In 3 years time Reiwoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Grimes, Pickett, Prestia and Lynch are all likely to be gone. With significant salary cap and draft capital already committed you'll do well to just replace that quality let alone improve.

And you're coming from further back. Collingwood went runners up, top 4 and top 8 from 2018-2020 whereas Richmond by the end of this year will have only snuck into finals once in the last 3 years.

A lot of that is a fair opinion. I don't know that we're actually coming from that far back, won't really know until the end of the year when positions are finalised, but it's pretty likely that we will miss finals this year after making it in 2022. I think you might be choosing numbers to suit your narative a little. Finals 1 in 3 years, but finalists 3/5 years with two premierships. I digress, but I think it's possible we contend for finals again in the coming years.

What I do agree with in this thread is that a lot of our youth are unproven. Given the position we're in though, it's nice to see a lot of them getting some continuity in playing regular footy. I think the club was prudent drafting 5 players in the top 30 in 2021. Gibcus, Clark, and Sonsie look like they will be a big part of our future. Will be good to see if Tom Brown and Banks can make the grade. Brown in particular who was taken in the first round.

 

[Footy Smarts]

A lot of that is a fair opinion. I don't know that we're actually coming from that far back, won't really know until the end of the year when positions are finalised, but it's pretty likely that we will miss finals this year after making it in 2022. I think you might be choosing numbers to suit your narative a little. Finals 1 in 3 years, but finalists 3/5 years with two premierships. I digress, but I think it's possible we contend for finals again in the coming years.

What I do agree with in this thread is that a lot of our youth are unproven. Given the position we're in though, it's nice to see a lot of them getting some continuity in playing regular footy. I think the club was prudent drafting 5 players in the top 30 in 2021. Gibcus, Clark, and Sonsie look like they will be a big part of our future. Will be good to see if Tom Brown and Banks can make the grade. Brown in particular who was taken in the first round.

Nobody is doubting you were a gun team pre 2021. But that shows in your demographics.

Collingwood in that 2020 semi final had 3 players over 30. Pendlebury who is still a gun and 2 average role players in Greenwood and Mayne.

On the weekend you played 7 over 30s. Reiwoldt was best on ground and Pickett won you the game. Prestia, Broad, Martin and Grimes are still playing very good footy. There are so many more players on your list that would be expected to decline in the coming years than that Collingwood team.

I agree you could make finals in the next couple of years if things go right. But it's really hard to see you improving enough to push top 4.

And those kids might well come on. But by the time they do the experienced guys will likely to be finished so you need them to come on just to stand still. And in terms of number and quality of young players the Richmond list is among the thinnest out there so the development challenge might not be impossible but it's significant.

 

[Football Tragic]

Nobody is doubting you were a gun team pre 2021. But that shows in your demographics.

Collingwood in that 2020 semi final had 3 players over 30. Pendlebury who is still a gun and 2 average role players in Greenwood and Mayne.

On the weekend you played 7 over 30s. Reiwoldt was best on ground and Pickett won you the game. Prestia, Broad, Martin and Grimes are still playing very good footy. There are so many more players on your list that would be expected to decline in the coming years than that Collingwood team.

I agree you could make finals in the next couple of years if things go right. But it's really hard to see you improving enough to push top 4.

And those kids might well come on. But by the time they do the experienced guys will likely to be finished so you need them to come on just to stand still. And in terms of number and quality of young players the Richmond list is among the thinnest out there so the development challenge might not be impossible but it's significant.

On the weekend, the coaches voted Riewoldt our best player followed by Bolton, Taranto and Balta who are all no where near 30. Looking through the stats for the game, excluding those already mentioned, our best players were Prestia, Short, Baker, Martin, Ross, Nankervis, Ralph-Smith, Rioli. Ryan and Clarke also had strong games. So in terms of our older players carrying our younger players, I think you're mistaken. It's our older players that are now the cherry on top, reaping the rewards from the work of the younger players. There is not a older player on our list that can not be replaced now.

 

[Footy Smarts]

On the weekend, the coaches voted Riewoldt our best player followed by Bolton, Taranto and Balta who are all no where near 30. Looking through the stats for the game, excluding those already mentioned, our best players were Prestia, Short, Baker, Martin, Ross, Nankervis, Ralph-Smith, Rioli. Ryan and Clarke also had strong games. So in terms of our older players carrying our younger players, I think you're mistaken. It's our older players that are now the cherry on top, reaping the rewards from the work of the younger players. There is not a older player on our list that can not be replaced now.

I never said the old guys are carrying the team. But there are a lot of them and they're still playing good footy.

If you really believe that last sentence of yours you're completely deluded. Your season this year has been completely derailed by an injury to one 30+ player.

 

[nut]

The 2020 draft your first pick was 40. In 2022 it was 49.

You're currently sitting with pick 24 as your top pick this draft and that's likely to blow out further with academy picks and you're unlikely to finish lower than where you currently are.

Across 4 drafts from 2020-2023 you will have had top 40 picks of 9, 17, 24, 28, 29, 30 and 40.

That's going to be easily the worst in the league over that time.

You’ve currently got picks 10 and 82 in this years draft…
It’ll be interesting to see if you guys try trade back into the draft.

 

[Blue1980]

If you transported Carlton’s list to Geelong with their coaching and off field setup, then Carlton.

 

[Footy Smarts]

You’ve currently got picks 10 and 82 in this years draft…
It’ll be interesting to see if you guys try trade back into the draft.

It depends on the trade and free agency period. If our old guys mostly decide to go around 1 more time and we bring in a couple of the rumoured free agents or trades we won't have many list spots.

We've got De Koning, Homes, O Henry, Bruhn and Knevitt as young players pushing into the 22 at the moment. We also need to get game time into Mullin, Dempsey, Conway, Clark and Neale. So we're probably not looking to load up on this draft. 1 good pick and a couple of speculative late picks and rookies seems reasonable.

 

[nut]

Richmond are similar to Geelong in which none of their younger midfielder/forward players look like match winners and they are about to lose Danger/Martin

Have you watched Tim Taranto ?

 

[nut]

Himmelberg is a good ordinary player. Bit like McStay.
If you can get him cheap, good deal.

Hearing geelong are into him now

 

[Warhorse]

Have you watched Tim Taranto ?

He's no Martin. I rate Bolton much higher

 

[Warhorse]

Hearing geelong are into him now

Hope you are wrong. Not the type we need

 

[nut]

He's no Martin. I rate Bolton much higher

No one is Martin … that’s why he is the GOAT.
Hopefully we get Hopper back after the bye to compliment the midfield more.

With both Brown and banks in the VFL over thier injuries and staring I’m happy with where our list is at.
Our 2021 draft looks like setting us up long term and only one played last night.

Brown
Banks
Gibcus
Clarke
Sonsie.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

He's no Martin. I rate Bolton much higher

Martin cost us $1.175m pa in his big contract. Taranto is costing $700k from what is now a bigger salary cap.

Taranto is likely to move into the top 3 in the coach's vote this week after another tremendous all round performance with loads of contested sherrins, tackles and a goal. He has had 33 or more disposals and a goal or more in each of his last 5 outings, apparently only been done by 5 players before. So he is in some very strong form at present, and to be fair, making a lot of people eat their words.

 

[9Nine]

If you transported the whole comp back to before the stand rule was brought in to handicap the mighty Tigers, then we wouldn't even be asking these silly questions about better lists. You know Richmond didn't have the most talented list when we won 3 flags in 4 years?

Let me tell ya, Geelong would've won the 2020 flag if the stand rule was in play then, and Richmond would've won that H&A game last season if they weren't handicapped by the stand rule but were allowed to (when they got in front) "raise the fight" to the end, like they did in 2020. Why do you bozos think we've had so many close losses since the stand rule? The answer is obvious to all honest people, and it has nothing to do with our list.

I'm not sure about our draft picks during our time at the top, but imagine you pick some young players you feel can play your system (the Richmond way), but then you find your club can't play your way any longer because you've been handicapped, your list is affected going forward.

So if it's between Carlton, Geelong & Essendon, the answer is obvious, Carlton. Leave Richmond out of it I reckon, because while all your clubs are playing the game Richmond created, we can't play the way we did when we won 3 flags with not the most talented list.

This would be a fun question, which club out of Carlton, Collingwood & Essendon is most likely to compel the AFL into making another pathetic looking rule change? I didn't include Geelong because, other than Geelong supporters, no one gave a f*** when they were winning flags

 

[Fadge]

Butcher's 30th account or Falcon's 8th?

 

[9Nine]

Butcher's 30th account or Falcon's 8th?

You suck

 

[Fadge]

You suck

Relatively tame in comparison to your usual responses...

 

[9Nine]

You won the flag last year yet have struggled to string together games off the back of an aging list and a group of supposedly promising youth. What makes you think you will not continue to slide down the ladder for the next 3 years?

Good point, I'd add we were beating them in finals before the stand rule when their stars were at the peak of their powers, and that with our not the most talented list.

 

[MisterMarcus]

If you transported the whole comp back to before the stand rule was brought in to handicap the mighty Tigers, then we wouldn't even be asking these silly questions about better lists. You know Richmond didn't have the most talented list when we won 3 flags in 4 years?

Let me tell ya, Geelong would've won the 2020 flag if the stand rule was in play then, and Richmond would've won that H&A game last season if they weren't handicapped by the stand rule but were allowed to (when they got in front) "raise the fight" to the end, like they did in 2020. Why do you bozos think we've had so many close losses since the stand rule? The answer is obvious to all honest people, and it has nothing to do with our list.

I'm not sure about our draft picks during our time at the top, but imagine you pick some young players you feel can play your system (the Richmond way), but then you find your club can't play your way any longer because you've been handicapped, your list is affected going forward.

So if it's between Carlton, Geelong & Essendon, the answer is obvious, Carlton. Leave Richmond out of it I reckon, because while all your clubs are playing the game Richmond created, we can't play the way we did when we won 3 flags with not the most talented list.

This would be a fun question, which club out of Carlton, Collingwood & Essendon is most likely to compel the AFL into making another pathetic looking rule change? I didn't include Geelong because, other than Geelong supporters, no one gave a f*** when they were winning flags

It’s pretty funny that I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious or taking the piss…

 

[9Nine]

It’s pretty funny that I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious or taking the piss…

And what's that tell ya?

 

[#23 Hill]

Carlton's list with Geelong's coach would be interesting.