Who is most destined for glory: Richmond, North and Melbourne?

[Daz]

It's very simple. He does things that almost all other big guys simply can't do. That's why we're excited.

Setanta O'Hailpin could play under 10's and I reckon he'd struggle to run 100m with the ball and kick a goal from 50. Or slot one from 50 on the boundary.

 

[telsor]

Daw was and remains a speculative pick.

Most likely he wont make it, but the potential upside is so huge, he's clearly worth a shot.

Every club takes risks like this, all through the draft, some bigger than others. Some work, some don't. It's just a natural part of (almost) no player being the 'complete package'.

Mind you...
Freak athlete showing good indications at VFL level though makes me think of David Gourdis. Lightning fast, good hands, decent kick...Some on BF thought him a first round selection, Richmond got him in the PSD. He's still very quick and the hands/kick are still good, and he had some very promising games at FF for Coburg..He's a decent player at that level, but eventually people finally worked him out, and realised that by AFL standards he's a bit (footy) dumb and doesn't have the workrate to be an AFL forward, so he's been reinvented as a backman in the hope that whoever he plays on can lead him to the ball and he'll still have the speed to get the spoil in.

We also delisted 2 'freak' talents this year....
Troy Taylor - magician, but couldn't get his head straight.
Robbie Hicks - Probably the fastest guy on an AFL list (genuine top grade sprinter), sadly he was at his fastest when running away from anything scary, like a contest.

 

[Richo83]

B: Grimes - Rance - ???
HB: Batchelor - ??? - ???
C: Deledio - Martin - Conca
HF: ??? - Reiwoldt - ???
F: ??? - Vickery - ???
R: ??? - Cotchin - Nahas
Int: Houli - Edwards - ??? - ???

This is a good effort. Richmond will be pushing for top four in about three years, or at least hope to.

- Maric, who is 25 will most likely be first ruck (given Sylvia and Wells were included, why not him?). Remember rucks often come into their own around 26-28 years of age.

- As stated, Foley is 25, and is a very good footy player when fit.

- Hopefully Edwards is pushed out my another player.

- I'd switch Vickery and Riewoldt, but that's just me.

- I trust the recruiters when they say that the quality of the top 20 in this draft is good, it's just the 20+ that's the issue. Ergo, I'll include our 15th pick in considerations (which will be most likely be a midfielder), who yes can rotate between half back and half forward as is needed.

I also agree that Elton seems a likely type for North.

So (with added alterations):

B: Grimes - Rance - ???
HB: Batchelor - ??? - ???
C: Deledio - Martin - Conca
HF: ??? - Vickery - Nahas
F: ??? - Reiwoldt - ???
R: Maric - Cotchin - Foley
Int: Houli - Edwards - Pick 15 - Grigg

So I've swapped around Riewoldt and Vickery, included our 15th pick (I trust our recruiting now, we don't have Wallace and Miller anymore), put in Grigg whose disposal issues are overstated (he's also only 23, he'll play finals if the club wants him to), and put Nahas on a flank. There are still six empty spots, although I feel filling in the forward pocket positions are the least important, Geelong has shown that you can afford to play with two more midfielders/forward flankers anyway.

One thing that emerges is that Richmond's big men isn't that much of an issue. McGuane and Moore wont play finals IMO and Thursfield has retired. Astbury, Rance and Grimes are a good trio. I've excluded Astbury because he hasn't proven he's good enough yet, that he's CHB worthy (which is an important position).

 

[Richo83]

Melbourne's 22 come 2014;

B: ??? - Frawley - ???
HB: Strauss - Garland - Grimes
C: Sylvia - Trengove - Blease
HF: Tapscott - Watts - Howe
F: Jurrah - Clark - ???
R: Gawn - McKenzie - Gysberts
Int: Jones - Martin - Viney (F/S) - ???

Can Morton and Bennell come on?

I think you've gone a little too early on some of these kids. Blease has played all of five games, one good game against the suns yes, but that's the suns. Strauss played half a season yet isn't he the one with the broken leg? Viney hasn't played afl footy yet. If these three are included, can any of Astbury, Griffiths, Connors, Morris and Dea?

As for Morton? My answer? No. I don't think he has the work ethic, but he still has time.

 

[THRILLHO]

I think you've gone a little too early on some of these kids. Blease has played all of five games, one good game against the suns yes, but that's the suns. Strauss played half a season yet isn't he the one with the broken leg? Viney hasn't played afl footy yet. If these three are included, can any of Astbury, Griffiths, Connors, Morris and Dea?

Gone too early? For ****s sake, you included pick 15 IN THIS YEARS DRAFT in your 2014 team.

 

[FootyIcon4]

Garland's a very versatile player; sure he'll get done by a Cloke in a one on one grapple... which defender won't?

He's far from a weakness in a key position post.

You're talking out of your ass based on his 'size'; I doubt you've watched him closely all year.

Garland is a 3rd tall and once Melbourne find a CHB he will play as a 3rd tall as he did when I saw him play on Gia this year

I thought Foley was 28?? My mistake then, I was just going from memory.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone who was included was a 'sure thing' (and vice versa), but Howe has convinced me he'll be a part of our team for a long time.

He has a combination of work rate, x-factor and ability which should see him as a 100+ game player for Melbourne.

I included players like Harper and Atley from North because, in my opinion, they have a long term future there.

Same with Batchelor, Conca and Grimes for Richmond.

It is, after-all, only my opinion (and I think it's a fairly fair and unbiased opinion).

I'd be pretty confident that one of Post and Astbury can hold down CHB in a few years time
Also if you put Howe in for Melbourne surely Griffiths has shown as much (was sitting in the pocket when he took that grab on Fletcher )

Also thank you for not putting Grigg in the team i can't stand him. if he kicks another hospital pass to a player with actually talent I may have to remove myself from BF for a while

 

[00Stinger]

I think you've gone a little too early on some of these kids. Blease has played all of five games, one good game against the suns yes, but that's the suns. Strauss played half a season yet isn't he the one with the broken leg? Viney hasn't played afl footy yet. If these three are included, can any of Astbury, Griffiths, Connors, Morris and Dea?

As for Morton? My answer? No. I don't think he has the work ethic, but he still has time.

yet it was ok for you to include pick15

 

[Richo83]

yet it was ok for you to include pick15

Well yes, this is my point, Viney is included, alongside Strauss and Blease, but not pick 15, seems hypocritical, don't you think?

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Garland is a 3rd tall and once Melbourne find a CHB he will play as a 3rd tall as he did when I saw him play on Gia this year

Nope; Frawley's played on Milne this year while Garland took Reiwoldt.. it's simply because he's versatile.

I'd be pretty confident that one of Post and Astbury can hold down CHB in a few years time
Also if you put Howe in for Melbourne surely Griffiths has shown as much (was sitting in the pocket when he took that grab on Fletcher )

Howe has shown a lot more than Griffiths; a lot.

Griffiths is a talent; but he's struggled thus far.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

This is a good effort. Richmond will be pushing for top four in about three years, or at least hope to.

- Maric, who is 25 will most likely be first ruck (given Sylvia and Wells were included, why not him?). Remember rucks often come into their own around 26-28 years of age.

- As stated, Foley is 25, and is a very good footy player when fit.

- Hopefully Edwards is pushed out my another player.

- I'd switch Vickery and Riewoldt, but that's just me.

- I trust the recruiters when they say that the quality of the top 20 in this draft is good, it's just the 20+ that's the issue. Ergo, I'll include our 15th pick in considerations (which will be most likely be a midfielder), who yes can rotate between half back and half forward as is needed.

I'm not sold on Maric; I think while he's a good stop gap he's never really displayed great talent or been held out of the team by a a great ruck (Like Jamar with White)... and ultimately I think Richmond will have their sights on a better ruckman come 2014.

Foley was an oversight, agreed.

I thought about including pick 15 to be honest; especially considering I included F/S picks for North or Melbourne.

BUT.

Both North and Melbourne are being given the opportunity to develop these players for a year through elite AFL training and even VFL experience.

These guys are also exceptional talents.

Pick 15 in this draft in no certainty; you'd hope a player like Green fell through.

 

[whelan=legend]

Griffiths shown as much as Howe?

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...1=3478&tid2=15&pid2=3332&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

I think not.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

I think you've gone a little too early on some of these kids. Blease has played all of five games, one good game against the suns yes, but that's the suns. Strauss played half a season yet isn't he the one with the broken leg? Viney hasn't played afl footy yet. If these three are included, can any of Astbury, Griffiths, Connors, Morris and Dea?

As for Morton? My answer? No. I don't think he has the work ethic, but he still has time.

Maybe I have, but I don't think so.

Blease has already produced one fantastic performance in his first 5 games of AFL footy. His pace combined with good disposal skill means he will be invaluable; and the club will give him time to develop in the team.

As for Strauss; I spoke to him close to two months ago and he said he was on track to start pre-season in the second or third week.

He's already doing a lot of bike work and straight line jogging according to a mate of his.

He's well ahead of schedule and will play AFL football in 2012; although probably no more than 10-15 games.

He is a player Melbourne will persist with due to his athleticism and skill; he's defensive edge has improved out of sight as well.

As I said earlier Viney has the opportunity to be developed by Melbourne; he'll play a lot of AFL footy in his second (let alone first) AFL season.

Connors is a lot like Morton in terms of attitude; and I didn't include either in the best 22's.

As for the others; I'm a bit doubtful.

 

[Heisenberg_]

TBF to Griff he hasn't been able to show much due to his shoulders, but hopefully this is behind him at last.
Came back to training today looking nice and strong in the upper body and no shoulder strapping. He is a fantastic prospect but granted he has a long way to go but if he lives up to his potential will be a beast aalong with Jack and Vickery in the forward line.
If he fails to make a big impact in the AFL a career in the NFL would be calling him, absolutely massive kick and so effortless as well in doing so.

 

[telsor]

Griffiths shown as much as Howe?

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...1=3478&tid2=15&pid2=3332&type=A&fid1=S&fid2=S

I think not.

Yes, overall, Howe has shown more, but in the sense that they've both had a lot of 'meh', with a few moments where their promise came through, then it's not a completely unreasonable comparison.

Both have a way to go before they can be considered as more than 'likely to step up to AFL standard' (because neither is really there yet).


edited to add...

Howe has shown more so far, and on that basis is more likely, but Griffiths has more upside.

 

[deledio7]

Griffiths has hardly got on the park and when he has he had 0 fitness. The bloke has only just got his shoulders right not to mention he is a big lad who will take time. Melbourne supporters bitched and moaned when Watts was lamented early on and yet you're happy to make a ruling on Griffiths.

Melbourne supporters require incessent gratification for having the best young list in the AFL...

 

[whelan=legend]

Both have a way to go before they can be considered as more than 'likely to step up to AFL standard' (because neither is really there yet).

Howe has definitely shown he is AFL standard. His stats are skewed by a couple of very quiet games where he was subbed off, but he has also had 10+ marks in a game twice, kicked a couple of bags of 3 and also polled a brownlow vote when West Coast thumped us. Very good development from him considering he was playing playing in the Tasmanian state league last season.

 

[liam_13]

****s sake there has been some shit thrown around here. A Carlton guy saying Cunnington is a spud...well, Kane Lucas has done less then Cunnington at AFL level. Is he a spud? No. He is a 20 year old, played less then 30 games, and is a high draft pick. You can't judge him now. Same goes for Cunnington.
Hansen is also relatively young, will be at the very least a good enough, best 22 KPP. At the most, will hold down Norths backline (hopefully that's where he is played from now on)
The next thing I was going to address was Ziebell turning out nothing more then a plodder. That is opinion, but my opinion is that is very wrong. I know the Bulldogs game has been talked about a lot in here, but he did manage those 40 disposals in just 70% of game time. Not only that, he put in very good performances vs Hawthorn and Port, and was in our better players (admittedly not much competition in some cases) vs Collingwood-2nd time, St Kilda-2nd time, Brisbane-2nd time and Carlton. He has also had some good games in the last 2 years, showing a lot of potential. All off a low fitness base, in his 3rd season of AFL, the only where he hasn't sustained a broken leg.
If you don't think you would be talking him if he played in your side, stop bullshitting yourself. I have seen plenty worse players talked up by all opposition supporters...as well as North.

Anyway, I think from the 4 youngish Victorian teams (Essendon, North, Melbourne, Richmond) there will be a superstar top 10 player from each; Hurley, Ziebell, Watts and Cotchin. Now excluding Essendon from the conversation, as they weren't addressed in the thread topic, I will determine in my opinion what each team needs to take the big step from bottom 8 to pretender to contender by 2015.

North: Great young midfield, with Swallow/Ziebell/Cunnington/Adams/Greenwood for the inside roles which should become a dominant clearance machine, runners in Wells/Harper/Macmillan and Bastinac/Atley to do both. This, along with Goldstein/McIntosh to palm it down to them, should develop nicely enough to be able to make up for other weak areas in the North side. Of course, this is depending on the likes of Ziebell/Bastinac/Cunnington remaining on field, and not suffering injuries.
If the midfield dominates the clearances, the forward line should be able to kick enough goals. North need Black to really show his true talents soon, so he gets a deserved game, rather then a WTH round 22 game. If he has 50 games up by start of 2015, North will benefit greatly. Petrie may or may not be around, but if he isn't, Pedersen can be the CHF and Black FF. Chuck in Speight/Thomas/Wright/Harper/Adams around them, and a third tall, and good delivery, no problems.
But the defence is the problem. No matter how good the midfield is, the ball will still go into the opposing forward line. Hopefully (from a Norths supporter view), Grima and Hansen can hold down FB and CHB. From that, Thompson can be the third tall-just needs to eliminate the occasional brain fades, McMahon the third man up in contests, and that leaves Macmillan, Mullett, Greenwood and Sierakowski to fight it out for the small back positions (most likely Greenwood to midfield and two M's will get defensive spots). This will leave a defence of roughly (age at start of 2015 season, expected games without injury)
B: Thompson (28, 130), Grima (29, 100), Mullett (23, 50)
HB: Macmillan (23, 60), Hansen (26, 120), McMahon (28, 150)
Summary: Minimal injuries, Black to come on, defence-especially Hansen and Grima-to beat nearly every single opponent they have, better skills-especially kicking, time.

Melbourne: With an array of high draft picks (Trengove, Watts, Cook, Sylvia, Viney, 2 other first rounders-Scully picks, you would expect them to be able to be competitive by 2015. But there could lie the problem. Expectations. So far, this team has not been able to handle expectations, or pressure, and are often seen as 'soft' or 'inconsistent'. Yes, it's a young team, but what about the likes of Green/Davey/Sylvia, too often it is left up to Jamar and Moloney to lead the young kids. So to arsenal, they do have a good solid midfield (Trengove, Moloney, Sylvia, McKenzie, Jones, Viney), couple of likely strong forwards (Watts, Clark), and decent backs in Frawley/Garland/Rivers, with Grimes/Strauss/Blease/Tapscott all able to fill a small defensive role. But the likes of Petterd, Howe, Jurrah, Green, Sylvia and Jetta up forward, are often lazy (bit harsh on Petterd and Howe, but they can both definitely improve). This is not the way to develop a premiership team. Maybe Mark Neeld, who declared his team would become one to be feared (or something similar, also goes to prove the point new coaches of young teams have to say what their plan is. So Scott shouldn't be bagged, he just answers relevant questions with something along the lines of 'we have to be competitive' against top 4 sides. So shut up fagots.) Anyway, I'm off topic. Bate and Dunn, unless they find a new light under Neeld, are close to list cloggers (again, I'm being overly harsh, but I'm on an internet forum so what's it to you), and they still have a lot of unknown quantities on their list. And Max Gawn, while potentially good, is still raw, so who knows if he can take on Jamars role. Martin is only ever going to be as good as Leigh Brown over a whole season imo, but that is good enough. Gawn will be the real key in the Demons ruck. Mitch Clark can help here, and I really think he should be a FF, as Watts needs to be the CHF. He will be so much better.
Summary: Develop Watts as a dominant CHF not as a HBF!!, consistency (mental 'toughness') + able to deal with pressure, time, minimal injuries

Richmond: 'Ninthmond', 'poor culture', 'at least we don't spit on our coaches lololo.' Well, that was years ago, and imo, the Richmond Football Club, under Damien Hardwick, has taken on a new path, a path towards glory. However, there are still a few problems. Namely, depth. They have the big guns in Riewoldt, Cotchin, Martin and Deledio, the serviceable top 12 players in Nahas, Houli, Foley and Newman, + some quality youngsters who could be anything, and are at the moment good players, in Conca, Vickery and Rance. But is Jake King really going to hang around that long? Just how good will the depth draft picks in Webberly/Helbig/Dea/. Plus I don't overly rate their ruck stocks, or their key backs. Maric is decent, and he is a necessity, but he will get monstered by the likes of Goldstein/McEvoy/Naitanui/Leuneberger/Mumford/Smith, majority of whom have decent back up who will comfortably beat Browne/Graham (assuming Vickery is a forward). With their key backs, I would assume the others are McGuane, Moore, Gourdis-can't crack the team as a forward, and Astbury. Grimes as a 3rd tall should develop into a good player, and enough said about Rance, but if Rance goes down injured, good key forwards will more then likely have a field day if there isn't a big step up (Moore is alright but injury prone???). Plus Jackson/White/Tuck/Miller (Miller is gone??), are just not going to elevate Richmond into the top 4.
Summary: Continued development of the new 'hard-edge' lead by Hardwick, develop ruck and key backs, more depth in midfield and along half forward flanks, time, minimal injuries.

The big thing facing this sides is other teams will be thereabouts in 2015, namely Carlton-where Judd will be near the end of his career and desperate to win one, Fremantle-if Lyon plays his cards right, West Coast-with Naitanui, another pick to be a top 10 player, Collingwood-the wealth of their football department makes them always a threat, Sydney-very underrated young midfield (Jack/Kennedy/McGlynn/Hannebery/Mitchell/Rohan/Lamb/Parker, and that's the youth, with McVeigh/Goodes (who knows how long he can play for)/Bolton/O'Keefe to help develop them. Plus Hawthorn and Essendon. So that's 7 clubs looking for their window to be open then. And if Melbourne/North/Richmond miss out over 2014-2016, then 2017 onwards, they have to deal with Gold Coast and GWS, who the AFL will be desperate for to get a premiership.

It's going to be too hard to predict which team is most likely going to taste premiership success, but of course, I'm going with North. But what if injuries strike 10 key players in the year North seem primed, or there is massive emotional barriers-such as family/friend stuff, that affects a lot of the team? You just can't predict. But going on players and what 'culture' North is trying to establish, I think North Melbourne with a bit of luck, could hold up the premiership cup this decade. Come on North!!

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Bombers supporters did not derail this thread??

"Harker how would you rate essendon compared to these guys if you think that.
I personally reckon we are a bit ahead of North "

What a crap post on a Roos, Tigers, Demons thread!

Definition for free speech:
Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship or limitation, or both

 

[telsor]

Howe has definitely shown he is AFL standard. His stats are skewed by a couple of very quiet games where he was subbed off, but he has also had 10+ marks in a game twice, kicked a couple of bags of 3 and also polled a brownlow vote when West Coast thumped us. Very good development from him considering he was playing playing in the Tasmanian state league last season.

We clearly have different views of what make a player AFL standard.

A couple of good games doesn't cut it for me, but then, I remember Dean Polo's debut (28 touches, 3 goals in a dreamtime game).

A few decent games when nobody rates you yet, so you're not getting much attention isn't enough (nb, this doesn't just apply to Howe, but many of those mentioned in this thread).

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Griffiths has hardly got on the park and when he has he had 0 fitness. The bloke has only just got his shoulders right not to mention he is a big lad who will take time. Melbourne supporters bitched and moaned when Watts was lamented early on and yet you're happy to make a ruling on Griffiths.

Melbourne supporters require incessent gratification for having the best young list in the AFL...

FFS not a single Melbourne supporter has said Griffiths WON'T make it as far I know (in this thread)!

Howe has shown vastly more at AFL level; the opposite to that shouldn't even be arguable.

Griffiths does have more upside and could be a star; but Howe has shown this year that he can be a great option as a third tall who'll kick between 30 and 40 goals a year.

Again telsor; I wouldn't be making jugements on a player you haven't seen much of.

You've probably got Howe pegged as a Jurrah type.

 

[MarkT2]

North are about to enter a golden era, the like of which we haven't seen before, could result in the club being split in two because of it sustained success. Watch this space.

Is that with one Brayshaw board and one Duffey?

 

[telsor]

Definition for free speech:
Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship or limitation, or both

True enough, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable, or on topic, and as BF does have some censorship and limitations on what is allowed, such deviations could be considered worthy of deletion or sanction against those who derail the thread.

Free speech is never absolute (you can't go into a primary school as regale them with stories of how 'friendly' you and your favorite goat get), nor does it require anyone to listen or care.

So if you want to go off topic, make your own thread, and tell someone who cares...If you can find anyone.

 

[deledio7]

FFS not a single Melbourne supporter has said Griffiths WON'T make it as far I know (in this thread)!

Howe has shown vastly more at AFL level; the opposite to that shouldn't even be arguable.

Griffiths does have more upside and could be a star; but Howe has shown this year that he can be a great option as a third tall who'll kick between 30 and 40 goals a year.

Again telsor; I wouldn't be making jugements on a player you haven't seen much of.

You've probably got Howe pegged as a Jurrah type.

Not at all. I just don't see the point of comparing Griffith's to justify the talent of Howe. No need at all and it's getting very tiresome reading the same irrelevant rhetoric.

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

True enough, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable, or on topic, and as BF does have some censorship and limitations on what is allowed, such deviations could be considered worthy of deletion or sanction against those who derail the thread.

Free speech is never absolute (you can't go into a primary school as regale them with stories of how 'friendly' you and your favorite goat get), nor does it require anyone to listen or care.

So if you want to go off topic, make your own thread, and tell someone who cares...If you can find anyone.

The original question was how he thought we were compared to these teams so its not really off topic

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Not at all. I just don't see the point of comparing Griffith's to justify the talent of Howe. No need at all and it's getting very tiresome reading the same irrelevant rhetoric.

You should tell that to the Tigers supporter who asked why I included Howe in Melbourne's team but not Griffiths in Richmonds... as they had shown about the same...