Who is most destined for glory: Richmond, North and Melbourne?

[SirJimi05]

Yes but you can't deny your comments were asking for trouble

Yeah I should have realized how insecure North supporters are. Always craving acceptance.

If you can't handle a bit of negative criticism about your team you shouldn't enter a thread like this one.

I think all 3 of the teams in question are mediocre and none are destined for glory. Who I follow is irrelevant to this duscussion.

 

[Heisenberg_]

As a Richmond supporter i would take Heppell (excluding Peitre) over any player on Norths list.

Todd Goldstein

 

[Daz]

I think Richmond have the best top end talent. Players like Cotchin, Martin and JR8 are currently better than any player on Melbourne or North lists. Where i think they will struggle is for overall depth. They have very weak KPD and outside Vickery (whom i assume will play mainly as a forward) few ruck prospects coming through. Given talls take longer to develop even if they were to draft players in now, by the time they develop into their prime guys like Lids are going to be slowing down.

North i think is in a bit of trouble. As others have said given none of the sides are likely to be legitimate challengers for 3-4 years, you need to take away guys like: Harvey, Rawlings, Firrito, McIntosh and Petrie and add a +29 yo. injury prone Daniel Wells on the downhill run and the cupboard looks really bare. Similar to Richmond, North have weak depth of KPP only right across the ground. Guys like Hansen and Tarrent etc have just not come on as expected. And again even if they could draft them in now they are realistically at least 5-6 years away from being elite. I know Aaron Black is waiting in the wings, but still we wait for a debut.

1) Cotch, Martin, Riewoldt and even Vickery are/will be super players but with 4 players in the AA squad this season we're not exactly short on top end talent.

2) Firrito was one of our worst players this year. He won't be best 22 next season. Brady struggled this year. His kicking had always been terrible but he started losing one on one contests as well. He was mainly in the side for his leadership. We didn't have McIntosh at all this year, so if anything we should be considering him a big plus for the next 3-5 years. Harvey will leave a decent hole but Speight, Adams and Harper are worthy replacements. Petrie will also leave a hole but he has plenty of years left dominating from the goal square.

3) Round 24 vs Richmond. He was still very underdone (he actually blew up and had to be subbed midway through the 3rd). The clip is a bit over the top but you get the point.

[youtube]tdBG1Qy_ZRU[/youtube]

 

[Daz]

Todd Goldstein

The fact that Richmond have no ruckmen is something that shouldn't be forgotten.

I can't get my head around the Maric recruitment. It would have been fine as a stopgap measure had you also gone after a guy like Nicholls or Hickey. But no, apparantly Maric is the long term solution

 

[MaddAdam]

This deserves a poll.

How about we poll the AFL coaches who had Daniel the 8th best player in the league last season?

I didn't see Zaharakis name there. Or in the AA squad.

FFS.

 

[Deleted member 98541]

[youtube]tdBG1Qy_ZRU[/youtube]

Clip is a bit of a piss take. Though I will be glad to burn the eyes out of a few opposition supporters should they view it start to finish.

 

[Harvey_35]

Probably North imo. Have some goods kids and a great coach. Are always competitive and look to be on the cusp of finals whereas I still don't see Richmond or Melbourne playing finals for a few years.

Richmond will have a super midfield, but can they score goals or defend? I'm not sure.

 

[NMFC 1811]

Errr what? I made a comment directly relating to the teams in question and a North supporter started going on about Essendon and how shit they are.

I never said Essendon were shit. I said mediocre at this point in time. Looks like your the insecure one and not North fans.

 

[mufassa]

Errr what? I made a comment directly relating to the teams in question and a North supporter started going on about Essendon and how shit they are.

Bombers supporters did not derail this thread??

"Harker how would you rate essendon compared to these guys if you think that.
I personally reckon we are a bit ahead of North "

What a crap post on a Roos, Tigers, Demons thread!

 

[Tulip]

191 CM, 3 CMS taller then Deledio and 2 CMS shorter then Dylan Grimes who is seen only as a Third Tall by many Richmond supporters.

Plays taller than Grimes because he has more strings to his bow.

Same size as Pav and Fevola

 

[telsor]

Plays taller than Grimes because he has more strings to his bow.

Same size as Pav and Fevola

Perhaps so, but at that size (191cm & 87kg), Garland has to be considered as 'limited' in the matchups he can handle. Quite a few sides have 2 forwards who would just be too big and strong for him. 3rd tall, sure, but at CHB, he'd be a weakness.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Apart from Jack Watts and Frawley, please name me these magical KPPs that Melbourne seem to have stored away on there list.

You have a bunch of Rucks and then a couple of unknowns such as Cook and McDonald.

And as to the highlighted part, how is that any different to what Richmond have done with Vickery, Astbury and Griffiths (When he's fit the club always give him games regardless).

Up forward we have Watts, Clark and Howe who have all played good AFL footy.

Down back we have Garland, Frawley and Rivers; who have all played excellent AFL footy.

We also have a KPP/Ruck utility in Martin and two back-up third tall options in Dunn and Bate.

Waiting in the wings we have Cook, McDonald, Fitzpatrick, Davis

With the first two having the ability to play up front or down back.

And all four showing very promising signs at VFL level; especially McDonald and Davis in the backline.

I count that as 13 KPP players on our list; with 9 having good AFL experience.

I'm very comfortable with our KPP stocks.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Perhaps so, but at that size (191cm & 87kg), Garland has to be considered as 'limited' in the matchups he can handle. Quite a few sides have 2 forwards who would just be too big and strong for him. 3rd tall, sure, but at CHB, he'd be a weakness.

Garland's a very versatile player; sure he'll get done by a Cloke in a one on one grapple... which defender won't?

He's far from a weakness in a key position post.

You're talking out of your ass based on his 'size'; I doubt you've watched him closely all year.

 

[SirJimi05]

How about we poll the AFL coaches who had Daniel the 8th best player in the league last season?

I didn't see Zaharakis name there. Or in the AA squad.

FFS.

How come you always have trouble keeping up with a conversation? Poll suggestion was for a comparison of Wells and Zaka after their 3rd seasons.

Only the most biased North supporter would argue that Wells was as good.

 

[theflea]

The fact that Richmond have no ruckmen is something that shouldn't be forgotten.

I can't get my head around the Maric recruitment. It would have been fine as a stopgap measure had you also gone after a guy like Nicholls or Hickey. But no, apparantly Maric is the long term solution

i can. we are so bad in the ruck and maric will give a contest and he can hit to advantage now! dont forget we still havent played derickx yet as he was injured most of the year. he showed a bit in the nab cup last year. as for a long term solution im not sure as it all depends how everything gells together. we have to wait and see. i think he will suprise a few next year.

 

[Daz]

Not sure what the point is in comparing Zaharakis' 3rd season to Wells' 3rd season. Everyone knows how long it took Wellsy to breakout. Zaha's season was better than Ablett's 3rd year as well, so what?

 

[00Stinger]

Just quietly, if (and it's still a big if) Majak Daw continues his rapid development there won't be anyone questioning our A grade talent.

But for now I'm pretty content with Petrie, Wells, Swallow, Goldstein and Ziebell.

Here's a list of things Maj has going for him:

- He can jump higher than most players
- He can run faster than most players
- He's a strong, physical player and puts immense pressure on the opposition
- He's strong overhead
- He's a very good kick for a ruckman

Here's a list of things he doesn't have:

- Fitness (seriously, he's shocking)
- A football brain


If he had played this year he would have been hurt the other way by good ruckmen but North supporters have every reason to be excited about this bloke.

People saying he should have played this year are wrong but others saying we've got nothing to look forward to with him are equally wrong.

You cant be serious?

 

[Daz]

You cant be serious?

Go on... what specifically do you disagree with?

 

[theflea]

Probably North imo. Have some goods kids and a great coach. Are always competitive and look to be on the cusp of finals whereas I still don't see Richmond or Melbourne playing finals for a few years.

Richmond will have a super midfield, but can they score goals or defend? I'm not sure.

again this shows ignorance. our midfield is coming along but still need to defend better. a ruck who hits to our blokes will help in that area. to say 'can we score goals' is folly. we were one of the few clubs to have 5 players score 20 goals plus last year. agree on defence but i reckon as ive said before its our team defence that lets us down hence the appointment of ross smith to the club via the hawks as our defensive structures coach. our defenders are bombarded all the time and if we could help in this way it will go along way to defending better.

 

[theflea]

Plays taller than Grimes because he has more strings to his bow.

Same size as Pav and Fevola

it may be jack of all trades but master of none!

 

[Slattery_20]

again this shows ignorance. our midfield is coming along but still need to defend better. a ruck who hits to our blokes will help in that area. to say 'can we score goals' is folly. we were one of the few clubs to have 5 players score 20 goals plus last year. agree on defence but i reckon as ive said before its our team defence that lets us down hence the appointment of ross smith to the club via the hawks as our defensive structures coach. our defenders are bombarded all the time and if we could help in this way it will go along way to defending better.

I do agree that goal-scoring is the least of the worries. Lots of contributors and lots of high scores.
However, I wouldn't be banking on that continuing, if they go a bit more focus on the defensive side of things.
For my money, Tigs have too many who are a bit one-way inclined - who won't be there in a flag tilt. They need to set up around Martin etc having that licence (to some extent) and find role players (albeit some sort of quality) to work around it.

Here's a list of things Maj has going for him:

- He can jump higher than most players
- He can run faster than most players
- He's a strong, physical player and puts immense pressure on the opposition
- He's strong overhead
- He's a very good kick for a ruckman

Here's a list of things he doesn't have:

- Fitness (seriously, he's shocking)
- A football brain

I could do that for Michael Quinn and come up with about the same points - just swap the positions of 'fitness' and 'overhead'.

Turns out, 'getting lost and not finding a touch for 2 quarters' and 'making hilariously bad decisions' are fairly big problems. And yes, he was (& is) a very good VFL player.

Fitness can be a pretty big killer too, btw. cf Casey Sibosado. If he's not up to the grade (or very close) after 3 pre-seasons I doubt he'd ever get there; and it's not like he's carrying weight.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

This is how I see each list;


Richmond;

have the most developed and proven top end talent so far; Riewoldt, Deledio, Martin, Vickery and Cotchin... they have some guys who I rate quite highly after that as well; Conca, Rance, Batchelor and Grimes. (Griffiths has talent as well)

However, in my view the bottom half of their list (when pushing for a top four spot; so you can exclude Newman and Foley) are not going to be anything more than 'handy'.

I think they still have a couple of gaps in their list (as opposed to just gaps in their 22).

This is how I see their 22 going forward (2014 and beyond);

B: Grimes - Rance - ???
HB: Batchelor - ??? - ???
C: Deledio - Martin - Conca
HF: ??? - Reiwoldt - ???
F: ??? - Vickery - ???
R: ??? - Cotchin - Nahas
Int: Houli - Edwards - ??? - ???

Obviously there are candidates for those (???) positions; such as Astbury for CHB.

But they are generally unproven; and there are legitimate question marks over most of them.

From that; Richmond have an excellent spine bar a CHB.

This will set them in pretty good stead; what they need is to recruit to complete their 'list' and pick needs based players... rebounding defenders and high half forwards are a priority at the moment.

They need another 4 players who can be part of a midfield rotation (including the HFF's); to support their already seriously good talent in the midfield.


North;

They have a much more solid spread of 'good' talent; but that's the problem for North when you are assessing their potential IMO... how 'good' will their 'good' talent become.

Top end = Goldstein, Swallow, Ziebell. (Macdonald come 2013??)

Their 22 in 2014.

B: Thompson - Tarrant - ???
HB: ??? - Hansen - ???
C: Bastinac - Swallow - Atley
HF: Harper - ??? - Wright
F: Thomas - ??? - Wells (at 30; this will be a good option for him)
R: Goldstein - Ziebell - Cunnington
Int: Adams - Pederson - ??? - Macdonald (F/S - Mid/Utility)

From that I get that North are very much set in the midfield for the next 6+ years; very well set.

That will be a competitive midfield and if Cunnington can develop as hoped it will be a top four midfield.

North's problem arises from it's lack of KPF's; yes Black is there... but he isn't close to a sure thing (as is the same with most young KPP's) and Daw is a tantalizing project.

North must target good KPF's in the upcoming draft (Jackson Paine/Todd Elton with your first pick this year please); their small defender stocks are very undermanned IMO (Macmillan could develop; but nothing other than him)

A backup ruck/forward would be handy (TODD ELTON!!!)

But you can see they have the makings of a good-great 22 (depends very much on how talented mids like Bastinac, Atley and Cunnington develop).

And lastly...

Melbourne;

One thing is obvious; Melbourne have recruited to complete a '22'. This can't be denied; it's lost on most people however.

Top end talent: Frawley, Watts, Trengove, Grimes, Sylvia (Viney come 2012?)

Then there's a plethora of talented younger/youngish guys; Martin, Gysberts, Howe, Clark, Strauss, Blease, Tapscott, Morton, Garland, Bail, McKenzie, Gawn, Jones, Jurrah, Petterd, Bennell

And that's where the strength of the list lies; in it's depth of young talent.

That's 22 players right there; and you could argue easily that all of them have the potential (and in some cases are already) to be good - great AFL players.

I don't think that's a biased statement; all of those have played AFL football and shown talent.

Melbourne's 22 come 2014;

B: ??? - Frawley - ???
HB: Strauss - Garland - Grimes
C: Sylvia - Trengove - Blease
HF: Tapscott - Watts - Howe
F: Jurrah - Clark - ???
R: Gawn - McKenzie - Gysberts
Int: Jones - Martin - Viney (F/S) - ???

The major weakness for Melourne is the midfield IMO; there are a lot of players you would say will be 'good' players... but only Trengove and Gysberts who really stand out as being better than that (and you need a top four midfield to contend).

Sylvia will be a fixture in the 22; the question is... will he stop underachieving?

Blease has been cruelled by injury; he was regarded as the midfielder with the highest upside in the 2008 AFL draft by some recruitiers (and also needing a lot of work to get to a high level of performance mind you).

Can Morton and Bennell come on?

I feel Bennell will have a small defender spot, he shut down players brilliantly there this year... but didn't get involved enough defensively.

Melbourne have been 'set up' as a 22 with a really good spread of talent.

HOWEVER; Melbourne is the group who you could accuse of lacking direction, discipline and desire the most in 2011.

And that's where the problem lies for Melbourne; leadership.

The key for Melbourne is that most of our gaps can be patched over from within out list; we don't have any gaps in our list as a whole.

 

[telsor]

Garland's a very versatile player; sure he'll get done by a Cloke in a one on one grapple... which defender won't?

He's far from a weakness in a key position post.

You're talking out of your ass based on his 'size'; I doubt you've watched him closely all year.

I didn't watch him (particularly) at all.

I just recognise that however tall they might play, at 191cm & 87kg as a CHB, any player would be starting with a serious handicap. They might be good enough to adapt, but given that they'll always be up against someone at least 5 cm taller and/or 5-10kg heavier, they're going to have trouble.

To use an analogy, it's like starting a 100M sprint 2M behind. It happens, and you can win from there, but considering at CHB he's up against some of the best 'sprinters' in the game, he wont win often.

nb. I'm not questioning how good he is as a player (as I indicated, I really dont know), just the claim that he's a quality CHB.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Fair enough; Garland's managed Franklin pretty well whenever he's played on him.

A bloke who's 5cm's taller and 12kg's heavier than him (Garland's 90kg's)

A smart defender will always be a better match up than an athletically similar defender.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I didn't watch him (particularly) at all.

I just recognise that however tall they might play, at 191cm & 87kg as a CHB, any player would be starting with a serious handicap. They might be good enough to adapt, but given that they'll always be up against someone at least 5 cm taller and/or 5-10kg heavier, they're going to have trouble.

To use an analogy, it's like starting a 100M sprint 2M behind. It happens, and you can win from there, but considering at CHB he's up against some of the best 'sprinters' in the game, he wont win often.

nb. I'm not questioning how good he is as a player (as I indicated, I really dont know), just the claim that he's a quality CHB.

Josh Gibson is 189cm and held down FB this year. I know he got beaten a few times, but every backmen does. He won most of his duels and had over 50% more spoils than anyone else. Gibson made the AA squad of 40, and was unlucky not to be in the team. He was in the best 2 or 3 FBs in the legue, and is only 189cm. Your theory, or should I say assumption, is incorrect.