Who is the best Key Defender of the 21st Century?

[PhatBoy]

You have encapsulated perfectly why Scarlett was a great player.

This goes absolutely nowhere in explaining why you think he is better than Rance. Scarlett never approached rance's contested possession rate before or after his team-mates stepped up. He did all you said but Rance simply did more. Rance got to more contests, won ore contests, effected more spoils, created more turnovers, had may ore 1%ers and coaches votes. These things didn't occur because Rance got some special favours from somewhere. He was simply a better overall player. Unusually for a Tiger player he was recognised by all the usual metrics you might use to elevate a Dangerfield or Ablett v Dustin Martin. Rance got AA selections at a greater rate than Scarlett, got coaches votes at a greater rate than Scarlett, and won an absolute shedload more contests, clearly due to a rare and unique ability for a key defender to rush from his defensive role into contests that would be out of reach for most others.

Scarlett was a really high quality player. Clearly a terrific ball user and his kicking was a great and valuable asset. There is absolutely nothing else that he has over a player like Rance, who was simply a different level of athlete.

He doesn’t have to match any rate. What rule states that?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Oh these ones are always fun.

I have found it’s easiest just to say Scarlett and then agree that the next best is the cumulative careers of the other Geelong key defenders, with extra credit given to careers cut short by injury.

It is a source of constant amusement that according to AA selectors 7 of the best 17 players this century have played for Geelong, and 10 have not played for Geelong. They have had:

• the 2 best and 3 of the top 4 best midfielders
• the 3 best defenders
• the second best forward

According to AA selectors. And the rest of the competition has had 1 of the best 4 midfielders between them, none of the best 3 defenders between them, and 1 of the best 2 forwards between them, but the 17 other clubs did combine to sneak in for the best ruckman between them.

And Geelong supporters think this is proof their players are the best in everything, that is the funniest thing about it.

 

[doppleganger]

Scarlett played on generational key forwards…. ?? Really ??

Given Buddy really launched in 2008 and Lonergan played on him from 2010. And given Jack Riewoldt launched from 2010. And Hawkins played for the Cats. And Lloyd’s last good year was 2004.

What’s your list of generational KPF’s Scarlett regularly played on?


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LoL.

In Rance's peak, from 2014-18, there were only 3 key forwards who avg 3+ goals a game in a season - Buddy, Josh Kennedy and Roughy.

TomaHawk never had a season where he avg 3. Jack only had 2, way before Rance entered his prime.

Scarlett had the following key forwards who had seasons where they averaged 3+ goals during his 10 year prime, from 2002-11:

Buddy, Roughy, Lloyd, J.Brown, Fevola, Pavlich, B.Hall, Gehrig, N.Riewoldt, Neitz, S.Lucas, Tredrea, Richardson, A.Lynch

Back when Scarlett was playing, key forwards were still kicking bags as teams hadnt heavily invested in the team defensive structures that really came in the 2010s.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Rance was so good that in R15 of 2017 Rance was tagged by Port Adelaide. Not ‘kept busy’ or have someone used as a decoy … they tagged him such was his dominance.


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[Doc1763]

Rance was so good that in R15 of 2017 Rance was tagged by Port Adelaide. Not ‘kept busy’ or have someone used as a decoy … they tagged him such was his dominance.


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Oh well, that settles it then. Lock him in for Full Back of the 21st Century.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

LoL.

In Rance's peak, from 2014-18, there were only 3 key forwards who avg 3+ goals a game in a season - Buddy, Josh Kennedy and Roughy.

TomaHawk never had a season where he avg 3. Jack only had 2, way before Rance entered his prime.

Scarlett had the following key forwards who had seasons where they averaged 3+ goals during his 10 year prime, from 2002-11:

Buddy, Roughy, Lloyd, J.Brown, Fevola, Pavlich, B.Hall, Gehrig, N.Riewoldt, Neitz, S.Lucas, Tredrea, Richardson, A.Lynch

Back when Scarlett was playing, key forwards were still kicking bags as teams hadnt heavily invested in the team defensive structures that really came in the 2010s.

Sadly we do not have anything objective and decisive to say how either or both of Scarlett and Rance performed in terms of conceding goals.

Obviously simply playing on higher scoring players proves nothing on its own, all the other key defenders of the day did as well. But surely if Scarlett was that much clearly better than Rance he at least gets somewhere near him for coaches votes?

 

[doppleganger]

It is a source of constant amusement that according to AA selectors 7 of the best 17 players this century have played for Geelong, and 10 have not played for Geelong. They have had:

• the 2 best and 3 of the top 4 best midfielders
• the 3 best defenders
• the second best forward

According to AA selectors. And the rest of the competition has had 1 of the best 4 midfielders between them, none of the best 3 defenders between them, and 1 of the best 2 forwards between them, but the 17 other clubs did combine to sneak in for the best ruckman between them.

And Geelong supporters think this is proof their players are the best in everything, that is the funniest thing about it.

Geelong have won 371 games in the 21st century.

Richmond as a comparisom have won only 262 games, just 109 less than Geelong.

Rightly or wrongly AA selectors are influenced by team results, when Geelong are dominant almost every year in those line ball type decisions their players will tend to get the nod.

Geelong have been blessed with teams filled with absolute stars.

They had absolute elite players in the 2000s - Scarlett, Enright, G.Ablett, Bartell, S.Johnson etc

And then during the 2010s - Selwood, Dangerfield, Stewart, TomaHawk, Cameron

The deluded Richmond fans who always think their players are better than everyone else, despite winning 109 games less, is hilarious.

 

[Fadge]

Geelong have won 371 games in the 21st century.

Richmond as a comparisom have won only 262 games, just 109 less than Geelong.

Rightly or wrongly AA selectors are influenced by team results, when Geelong are dominant almost every year in those line ball type decisions their players will tend to get the nod.

Geelong have been blessed with teams filled with absolute stars.

They had absolute elite players in the 2000s - Scarlett, Enright, G.Ablett, Bartell, S.Johnson etc

And then during the 2010s - Selwood, Dangerfield, Stewart, TomaHawk, Cameron

The deluded Richmond fans who always think their players are better than everyone else, despite winning 109 games less, is hilarious.

Indeed.

Who would have thought?

Teams who win the most games, and therefore have the better performed players, are rewarded with more All-Australian selections...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Geelong have won 371 games in the 21st century.

Richmond as a comparisom have won only 262 games, just 109 less than Geelong.

Rightly or wrongly AA selectors are influenced by team results, when Geelong are dominant almost every year in those line ball type decisions their players will tend to get the nod.

Geelong have been blessed with teams filled with absolute stars.

They had absolute elite players in the 2000s - Scarlett, Enright, G.Ablett, Bartell, S.Johnson etc

And then during the 2010s - Selwood, Dangerfield, Stewart, TomaHawk, Cameron

The deluded Richmond fans who always think their players are better than everyone else, despite winning 109 games less, is hilarious.

Hang on this is new.

This Geelong team Richmond kept pantsing in finals that we have been told on Bigfooty for years was no good....it turns out it was full of stars after all.

Just put your beer down for a moment dopple, and close your eyes and wipe out all you know about AA selections. Then ask yourself what is the likelihood 1 of 18 clubs will provide:

• 3 of the best 4 midfielders
• THE 3 best defenders
• 1 of the best 2 forwards

in the last 23 seasons.

And that the other 17 clubs would provide:

• 1 of the best 4 midfielders
• none of the best 3 defenders
• 1 of the best 2 forwards

Like if Geelong have won 371 games this century, how many games have the other 17 clubs combined won? Pretty sure the figure is well over 4000.

They have been stiff the Cats. More out and out champions than the rest of the AFL combined according to AA selectors...yet Cats have won about 7% of the matches of the rest of the AFL combined and only about 17% of the Premierships on offer.

We need to enquire into whether this poor club has been given a fair go by AFL officials, umpires, scoreboard attendants et al. Because from where I sit Dopple, something just doesn't quite add up.

 

[Fadge]

Hang on this is new.

This Geelong team Richmond kept pantsing in finals that we have been told on Bigfooty for years was no good....it turns out it was full of stars after all.

Just put your beer down for a moment dopple, and close your eyes and wipe out all you know about AA selections. Then ask yourself what is the likelihood 1 of 18 clubs will provide:

• 3 of the best 4 midfielders
• THE 3 best defenders
• 1 of the best 2 forwards

in the last 23 seasons.

And that the other 17 clubs would provide:

• 1 of the best 4 midfielders
• none of the best 3 defenders
• 1 of the best 2 forwards

Like if Geelong have won 371 games this century, how many games have the other 17 clubs combined won? Pretty sure the figure is well over 4000.

They have been stiff the Cats. More out and out champions than the rest of the AFL combined according to AA selectors...yet Cats have won about 7% of the matches of the rest of the AFL combined and only about 17% of the Premierships on offer.

We need to enquire into whether this poor club has been given a fair go by AFL officials, umpires, scoreboard attendants et al. Because from where I sit Dopple, something just doesn't quite add up.

Yet another factually incorrect post where the data has been misrepresented in an attempt to support a warped agenda.

Let's start with 5 different clubs being represented by the four best midfielders as determined by the AA selection committee...

 

[doppleganger]

Sadly we do not have anything objective and decisive to say how either or both of Scarlett and Rance performed in terms of conceding goals.

???
They keep track of goals scored by players.

As per the Geelong finals in 2007, Scarlett kept opposition key forwards to 0 goals.

Rance in finals, key forwards the calibre of Waite and Cox have days out against Richmond.

But Rance has good AFL player ratings, so doesnt matter that the opposition ley forwards were on fire.

Obviously simply playing on higher scoring players proves nothing on its own, all the other key defenders of the day did as well.

Changed your tune...dont you want to run with goals per inside 50 again?

But surely if Scarlett was that much clearly better than Rance he at least gets somewhere near him for coaches votes?

Considering that 3 of Scarlett's best seasons 2002, 03 and 04 when he went 2nd, 1st and 2nd in his clubs BnF - the equivalent of Rance's 2015,16 and 17 - dont have votes to scrutinise.

Pretty obvious why you keep pushing this nonsense narrative.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

???
They keep track of goals scored by players.

As per the Geelong finals in 2007, Scarlett kept opposition key forwards to 0 goals.

Rance in finals, key forwards the calibre of Waite and Cox have days out against Richmond.

But Rance has good AFL player ratings, so doesnt matter that the opposition ley forwards were on fire.



Changed your tune...dont you want to run with goals per inside 50 again?

Considering that 3 of Scarlett's best seasons 2002, 03 and 04 when he went 2nd, 1st and 2nd in his clubs BnF - the equivalent of Rance's 2015,16 and 17 - dont have votes to scrutinise.

Pretty obvious why you keep pushing this nonsense narrative.

None if this means anything unless you can show Scarlett achieved things Rance didn't. All the same things that made Rance 2013-18 a better player than Scarlett 2006-09 and beyond would have highly likely made Rance a better player than Scarlett 2002-05. Unless you think Scarlett 2002-05 was somehow on another level to Scarlett 2006-09 and beyond(was AA in 2011 from memory.) If he was then your longevity goes out the window. If he wasn't then Rance was simply a better footballer.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yet another factually incorrect post where the data has been misrepresented in an attempt to support a warped agenda.

Let's start with 5 different clubs being represented by the four best midfielders as determined by the AA selection committee...

List them.

And if that is just the start, give us the rest.

 

[Fadge]

Serious question - how many games did you see Scarlett play?

Hey Meteoric Rise, seems you missed this question....

You've been extremely vocal and passionate about Rance being superior to Scarlett.

How many times did you watch Scarlett play?

 

[Fadge]

List them.

GAJ was an All-Australian player at Geelong and Gold Coast;
Dangerfield an All-Australian player at Adelaide and Geelong;
Selwood an All-Australian player at Geelong;
Judd an All-Australian player at West Coast and Carlton.

 

[Mr Meow]

None if this means anything unless you can show Scarlett achieved things Rance didn't. All the same things that made Rance 2013-18 a better player than Scarlett 2006-09 and beyond would have highly likely made Rance a better player than Scarlett 2002-05. Unless you think Scarlett 2002-05 was somehow on another level to Scarlett 2006-09 and beyond(was AA in 2011 from memory.) If he was then your longevity goes out the window. If he wasn't then Rance was simply a better footballer.

There's a reason the neutrals who watched the careers of both are piling one way. There are a handful of Tigers fans who think otherwise. You're really the only one arguing for it. The more posts you make consisting of absolute nonsense, the more you generate another Scarlett voter.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

GAJ was an All-Australian player at Geelong and Gold Coast;
Dangerfield an All-Australian player at Adelaide and Geelong;
Selwood an All-Australian player at Geelong;
Judd an All-Australian player at West Coast and Carlton.

2 cohorts in play here.

A cohort representing roughly 7% of the playing population who have played at Geelong FC. Call this cohort 1.

A cohort representing roughly 93% of the AFL playing population who have not played football at the Geelong FC. Call this cohort 2.

Cohort 1 is roughly 7% of the playing population and supplies 75% of the 4 midfielders with the highest rate of AA selections this century.

Cohort 2 represents 93% of the AFL playing population and supplies 25% of the 4 midfielders with the highest rate of AA selections this century.

Fadge will go to his grave defending this as legit.

But that is just midfielders, which has been so relatively generous to cohort 2. Defenders it is the top 3 from cohort 1, and none of the top 3 coming from cohort 2. Just ****ing LOL.

 

[Fadge]

2 cohorts in play here.

A cohort representing roughly 7% of the playing population who have played at Geelong FC. Call this cohort 1.

A cohort representing roughly 93% of the AFL playing population who have not played football at the Geelong FC. Call this cohort 2.

Cohort 1 is roughly 7% of the playing population and supplies 75% of the 4 midfielders with the highest rate of AA selections this century.

Cohort 2 represents 93% of the AFL playing population and supplies 25% of the 4 midfielders with the highest rate of AA selections this century.

Fadge will go to his grave defending this as legit.

But that's not what you originally represented, was it?

Now if you can answer my question, please?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

But that's not what you originally represented, was it?

Now if you can answer my question, please?

I can't recall your question. And that is not in any way inconsistent with what I originally posted.

Ah, Scarlett. I probably saw him play 50 games on TV.

 

[doppleganger]

Hang on this is new.

This Geelong team Richmond kept pantsing in finals that we have been told on Bigfooty for years was no good....it turns out it was full of stars after all.

LoL you have outdone yourself with this botching of data.

Also the AA team is based off H&A, not finals.

Richmond winning finals is irrelevant when talking AA selections.

Just put your beer down for a moment dopple, and close your eyes and wipe out all you know about AA selections. Then ask yourself what is the likelihood 1 of 18 clubs will provide:

• 3 of the best 4 midfielders
• THE 3 best defenders
• 1 of the best 2 forwards

in the last 23 seasons.

If you put forward that at the start of the century it would have raised eyebrows.

But if you also said that one club would finish top 4 after H&A 14 times, winning many more games than everyone else and include 5 of the top 20 players in terms of games won in the history of the competition....then it would make sense.

That team blessed to have some champions of the game.

And that the other 17 clubs would provide:

• 1 of the best 4 midfielders
• none of the best 3 defenders
• 1 of the best 2 forwards

Again it aint unsurprising, when one team is that far ahead in H&A wins they will have champions who perform year-in-year out.

The other clubs (and players) pop up for a few years and then fall away.

So yes, if you are basing your "best" on AA awards, which heavily favour sustained H&A dominance, it is unsurprising that Geelong are dominant...as they were the one team where players continued to win.

The Geelong champions are 300 game stars who were able to sustain their peak performance over a long duration.

Meanwhile you have the rest - StK stars of 09-10, guys like Montagna and Dal Santo who bob up for a few elite seasons, but cant sustain it. BL - their premiership stars like Lappin, Aler, Black, C.Johnson, Leppa none chalked up the 5 or 6 AAs as the team fell away after their run of dominance.

Like if Geelong have won 371 games this century, how many games have the other 17 clubs combined won? Pretty sure the figure is well over 4000.

Why are you combining anything?

They have been stiff the Cats. More out and out champions than the rest of the AFL combined according to AA selectors...

Just look at simple most wins ever table.

Filled with champions of the game - Bartlett, Doull, Matthews, Tuck, Coventry, Madden.

Geelong from the 21st century have added 5 to the list of the top 20 winningiest players ever (and that doesnt include Gaz or Danger (Danger needs 15 more wins to bump C.Langford out of 20th)).

All the other teams combined in the 21st century have only added 4 to the list - S.Burgoyne, Goodes, Franklin and Pendles.

Yet you are surprised that Geelong have some champions who collect AA awards??

yet Cats have won about 7% of the matches of the rest of the AFL combined and only about 17% of the Premierships on offer.

Herp derp.

We need to enquire into whether this poor club has been given a fair go by AFL officials, umpires, scoreboard attendants et al. Because from where I sit Dopple, something just doesn't quite add up.

Your lack of comprehension (and need to warp any stats to favour Richmond) is again why it aint adding up.

Geelong have been streets ahead of the rest in the 21st century, largely off the back of some all time champion players, Scarlett being one of them.

 

[Fadge]

And that is not in any way inconsistent with what I originally posted.

You honestly believe that?

Ah, Scarlett. I probably saw him play 50 games on TV.

During which seasons would you have watched these 50 games on TV?

 

[Mr Meow]

I can't recall your question. And that is not in any way inconsistent with what I originally posted.

Ah, Scarlett. I probably saw him play 50 games on TV.

Not sure I believe you. I'm fairly sure your gap years covered most of Scarlett's career. You get that much wrong about Geelong player roles 2007-2011 that I'd put you down for 5 games from that era at most, and none in the 5 years previous.

 

[Jeremias]

It is bloody tough NOT to stop your opponent when you win a contest Jeremias. Like, you would literally have to win the contest then give the ball to your opponent.

This is not measured by contested possessions, disposal numbers, or tackle count.

There are far better and more accurate stats to use for key defenders, and I’m wondering why you didn’t bother.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This is not measured by contested possessions, disposal numbers, or tackle count.

There are far better and more accurate stats to use for key defenders, and I’m wondering why you didn’t bother.

Go for it. Provide us with these far better and "more accurate"(lol) stats for key defenders. Then we can discuss.

It seems you think the coaches votes, contested possession, tackle, disposal and other stats are not collected and reported accurately now. Wow, that is new. What makes you think that?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You honestly believe that?

During which seasons would you have watched these 50 games on TV?

Probably most of his finals from the outset and the odd home and away game here and there. Then quite a few games in 2010 and nearly all of them in 2011-12.

I saw enough of Scarlett at his best to be familiar with him as a player. Because I was not consuming local media throughout this period I didn't get caught up in the Scarlett myth or the super team myth like you.