Who is the best Key Defender of the 21st Century?

[TheEscapeClub]

Scarlett, Lake and Rance would be my top 3.

 

[Mr Meow]

If you hadn't noticed I don't dictate every twist and turn in the conversation. A devoted and proud Cats fan understandably posted something suggesting Scarlett did not concede a goal in the 2007 finals series. This left me wondering just how shocking Josh Hunt and Boris Enright must have been to concede goals at 1 per 4.52 entries* where Richmond 2017's appreciably stronger finals opponents required almost 50% more inside 50's per goal on average, even after the adjustment.

Anyway, why are you in such a dark mood at this time? You guys finally won your second Grand final in 65 years, albeit under not entirely true pretences. I hope Santa didn't disappoint you Dopple.



*adjusted to allow for higher scoring in the era

Appreciably stronger...using criteria that you have refused to acknowledge for St Kilda 2009 and Collingwood 2011 being two of the strongest sides not to be crowned premiers this century. Your contradictions truly know no bounds. Which is what happens when you start with a position that has no credibility and then desperately try and stretch the facts around it to somehow fit.

On the one hand you've said Richmond's defence was weaker and so Rance deserves more credit. Yet in other threads you elevate those other Richmond defenders above their Geelong equivalents.

I'm starting to think you don't actually have any conviction whatsoever in basically any point you try and make.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

See that is why it's hard for me rate Rance as the GOAT defender of the 21st century.

One of my lifelong and best mates who is a passionate Geelong supporter says Scarlett's influence extended well beyond his on field feats, he was a key figure to turning The Cats underachieving culture around, esp off field .
He was more of lynchpin to Geelong's drought breaking flags and culture than many people think

He was one of the Cats players who took it upon himself to throw the book at Stevie J after his drunken escapades in 2006, in no uncertain terms told SJ to shape up or ship off

Lol and of course Rance had no role at all in turning the Tigers under-achieving culture around. This thread has the makings of a classic

 

[doppleganger]

If you hadn't noticed I don't dictate every twist and turn in the conversation. A devoted and proud Cats fan understandably posted something suggesting Scarlett did not concede a goal in the 2007 finals series. This left me wondering just how shocking Josh Hunt and Boris Enright must have been to concede goals at 1 per 4.52 entries* where Richmond 2017's appreciably stronger finals opponents required almost 50% more inside 50's per goal on average, even after the adjustment.

Yes a tremendous effort to not concede a goal to your opponent.

Who were Rance's opponents in 2017? Or was he playing on nobody and letting Astbury and Grimes take the key forwards?

Anyway, why are you in such a dark mood at this time?

In a great mood.

 

[Mr Meow]

See that is why it's hard for me rate Rance as the GOAT defender of the 21st century.

One of my lifelong and best mates who is a passionate Geelong supporter says Scarlett's influence extended well beyond his on field feats, he was a key figure to turning The Cats underachieving culture around, esp off field .
He was more of lynchpin to Geelong's drought breaking flags and culture than many people think

He was one of the Cats players who took it upon himself to throw the book at Stevie J after his drunken escapades in 2006, in no uncertain terms told SJ to shape up or ship off

Correct and the defence badly suffered when he finally declined (2012) and then retired. Plug even 2011 Scarlett into the 2013 prelim and the Cats hold on with some spare change. The defence was a shambles that night and in big finals in subsequent years would be found wanting. The rapid slingshots from one end of the ground to the other, usually started by Scarlett, also dried up and the Cats had to become a stodgier team with ball movement. This worked to a point and that point was usually frenetic finals. Whereas in frenetic finals in Scarlett's pomp, the side could have an ultra attacking gameplan, still ably defend counters and then slingshot it up the other end. Scarlett was a big part of that.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Lol and of course Rance had no role at all in turning the Tigers under-achieving culture around. This thread has the makings of a classic

I didn't imply Rance didn't have a positive, cultural changing influence at Richmond either (I would assume he had a significant impact in that regard)

Don't put words in my mouth..

 

[doppleganger]

Did Scarlett play for 2019 Richmond defence?

Rance didnt.

The 2019 Richmond defense was 20% stingier than the 2017 Richmond defense (against same level of opposition - 123% avg opposition).

The only change was OUT Rance.

Richmond were better defensively with Grimes as the defensive leader instead of Rance.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yes a tremendous effort to not concede a goal to your opponent.

Who were Rance's opponents in 2017? Or was he playing on nobody and letting Astbury and Grimes take the key forwards?

In a great mood.

Rance's opponents in this Grand Final where the coaches both voted him 3rd BOG were all of the following:

T Walker, R Sloane, 2 goals
E Betts, B Crouch, C Cameron, H greenwood 1 goal

That is of course why both coaches voted Alex Rance 3rd BOG in the 2017 Grand Final.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Rance didnt.

The 2019 Richmond defense was 20% stingier than the 2017 Richmond defense (against same level of opposition - 123% avg opposition).

The only change was OUT Rance.

Richmond were better defensively with Grimes as the defensive leader instead of Rance.

No it wasn't. All those that played in 2017 were two years older and 2 years deeper into the game plan. And a certain T Lynch had arrived.

That should help.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Also when you say he pranced around doing as he pleased, you must mean winning contested possessions, effecting spoils, tackling, and applying pressure right? Because these were all things he did much better than Scarlett, who was an uncontested beast whose team-mates fed him the ball even if it meant going backwards or side ways. But you clearly think that is under-rated and winning contests is over-rated in football. Or do I somehow have that wrong?

Obviously posted by someone who never took any notice of Scarlett's career pre Harry Taylor and Tom Lonergan. Geelong's whole premiership dynasty was built on the bedrock of Scarlett, Harley and Milburn in defence.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I didn't imply Rance didn't have a positive, cultural changing influence at Richmond either (I would assume he had a significant impact in that regard)

Don't put words in my mouth..

I take back those words I didn't put in your mouth then Elmer.

 

[crows dude]

The key is defender
Scarlett defended best.
Although he only played half his career in the 21st century Ben hart is criminally underrated.
4 AA in the back pocket awesome athleticism awesome reach could play on the big dogs or the smalls.
Have him in the back pocket in my afl era team

Benny Hart was a gun but not a key defender all though was made to play as one in his first few years at times.

Ben Rutten was rarely beaten as well

 

[doppleganger]

No it wasn't. All those that played in 2017 were two years older and 2 years deeper into the game plan. And a certain T Lynch had arrived.

That should help.

T.Lynch was a defender was he?

2019 Tigers defense was 20% better without Rance compared to 2017 with Rance.

That is according to your own goals per inside 50 stat...against the same level of opposition (opponents avg 123%).

Might need to bring up disposals again.

Geelong fell away when Scarlett dropped off, Richmond improved when Rance quit.

 

[doppleganger]

Rance's opponents in this Grand Final where the coaches both voted him 3rd BOG were all of the following:

T Walker, R Sloane, 2 goals
E Betts, B Crouch, C Cameron, H greenwood 1 goal

That is of course why both coaches voted Alex Rance 3rd BOG in the 2017 Grand Final.

LoL the Rance played on everyone gimmick.

What about the QF and PF.

So far it is Scarlett's opponent 0 goals, Rance 2 (if Tex) or 8 (if everyone).

 

[Noidnadroj]

This speaks to someone who either didn't watch or understand the games of Geelong from that time period.

Harley was the one with license to peel off and intercept. Scarlett always had the tough assignment closer to home.

Taylor went with Riewoldt as he was a centrehalf back and Riewoldt was a roaming CHF. Kozzy sat deeper inside 50 and so Scarlett took him. It's a little embarrassing I have to explain things like this to you.

Once again, in general Taylor was the interceptor and Scarlett the stay at home full back. Just because Scarlett would also intercept, repel and rebound at lightning pace does not mean he wasn't locked onto the most dangerous forward inside 50.

You're showing a really limited understanding of these things and mostly seem to be applying guesswork, so it's probably time to wrap up soon.

I said that Taylor obviously ‘took the best forward a lot’ … you then confirm Scarlett played closer to home. So if the best forward in the opposition was playing a ‘roaming CHF’ role (eg Riewoldt, Pavlich etc…) there’s a good chance Taylor played on them, right?

So from the arrival of Taylor in 2008, Scarlett played a good portion of games not playing on the oppositions best forward, as they may not have been playing close to goal - is that a fair statement?

I’m not saying this was a blight on Scarlett, as obviously Taylor was more suited to running players. But it did mean Taylor often took the oppo’s best forward …. which is what I said. Then Lonergan often took the oppo’s best forward, which is also what I said.

So from 2008-2012 Scarlett was often not playing in the oppo’s best forward.

Is that incorrect?



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[Meteoric Rise]

T.Lynch was a defender was he?

2019 Tigers defense was 20% better without Rance compared to 2017 with Rance.

That is according to your own goals per inside 50 stat...against the same level of opposition (opponents avg 123%).

Might need to bring up disposals again.

Geelong fell away when Scarlett dropped off, Richmond improved when Rance quit.

Geelong won a flag when Ablett left, supposed to be the best player this century lol.

Hawks won a flag when Franklin left.

Tigers win a flag when Rance got injured. The other one doesn't count apparently, lol.

So he is not in bad company.

In truth, the whole team had changed, matured and the addition of Lynch allowed the defence to set up much better.

Forget all this nonsense.

Who is better out of Scarlett and Rance, and why?

 

[Northernsoul74]

I’d throw May into the mix. I know he’s a flog.

 

[PhatBoy]

Looks like everybody else has gotten it wrong. Again.

 

[H00t]

I’d throw May into the mix. I know he’s a flog.

He’s a player who can really do it all.

His best is just about the best for a key defender. He just hasn’t done it often enough. I think if he didn’t get drafted to the suns he’d be right in the conversation.

 

[doppleganger]

Geelong won a flag when Ablett left, supposed to be the best player this century lol.

Hawks won a flag when Franklin left.

Tigers win a flag when Rance got injured. The other one doesn't count apparently, lol.

Yeah the premiership is a team award.

In truth, the whole team had changed, matured and the addition of Lynch allowed the defence to set up much better.

In truth the defense was stingier using your own metric.

Perhaps that is your issue for picking a team based stat when trying to comparing individuals.

The 2019 Richmond defense was stronger without Rance.

Forget all this nonsense.

Who is better out of Scarlett and Rance, and why?

Scarlett, he actually played and beat the opposition key forward.

Scarlett also did it better for longer.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Obviously posted by someone who never took any notice of Scarlett's career pre Harry Taylor and Tom Lonergan. Geelong's whole premiership dynasty was built on the bedrock of Scarlett, Harley and Milburn in defence.

Didn’t Egan make AA in 2007? Enright made AA in 2008/09/10/11. Taylor made AA in 2010. Harley made AA in 2008. Milburn AA 2007.

Rance played his entire career with not a single defender from Richmond making AA around him.

Scarlett and his co-defenders were having an AA party during their dynasty.

This is not Scarlett’s fault, but of course it’s going to be easier to defend in a defence containing 5 other All-Australians.


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[Meteoric Rise]

Didn’t Egan make AA in 2007? Enright made AA in 2008/09/10/11. Taylor made AA in 2010. Harley made AA in 2008. Milburn AA 2007.

Rance played his entire career with not a single defender from Richmond making AA around him.

Scarlett and his co-defenders were having an AA party during their dynasty.

This is not Scarlett’s fault, but of course it’s going to be easier to defend in a defence containing 5 other All-Australians.


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Especially when you only win 4 contested possessions per game and you are an arch receiver.

 

[PhatBoy]

I thought I was the most argumentative c**t on the planet much less isolated to within a f**king forum based around a sport localised to a country with a population of 25 million, half of whom don’t even closely follow that sport.

But no I was wrong there’s one who has to call in a f**king NASA supercomputer to tell the world why they’re all wrong and he’s correct because someone in the 16th minute of the third quarter of a game in 2017 briefly left their opponent to go for a piss and someone else manned them for 30 f**ken seconds and conceded a rushed behind which threw out the scoring index for the rest of the season.

F**k me drunk

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Didn’t Egan make AA in 2007? Enright made AA in 2008/09/10/11. Taylor made AA in 2010. Harley made AA in 2008. Milburn AA 2007.

Rance played his entire career with not a single defender from Richmond making AA around him.

Scarlett and his co-defenders were having an AA party during their dynasty.

This is not Scarlett’s fault, but of course it’s going to be easier to defend in a defence containing 5 other All-Australians.


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Egan was AA in 2007 and never played a game again after the end of that 2007 h&a. Enright isn't a key defender, Scarlett was 3 x AA before Harley got his and 2 before Milburn received his, Taylor only started at Geelong in 2008 and Scarlett had 5 AAs before Taylor got his first.

Scarlett was shutting them down, talls and smalls for years before all of the rest of them were being named AA. It was only the second half of his career when he was able to play a more rebounding role.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

I said that Taylor obviously ‘took the best forward a lot’ … you then confirm Scarlett played closer to home. So if the best forward in the opposition was playing a ‘roaming CHF’ role (eg Riewoldt, Pavlich etc…) there’s a good chance Taylor played on them, right?

So from the arrival of Taylor in 2008, Scarlett played a good portion of games not playing on the oppositions best forward, as they may not have been playing close to goal - is that a fair statement?

I’m not saying this was a blight on Scarlett, as obviously Taylor was more suited to running players. But it did mean Taylor often took the oppo’s best forward …. which is what I said. Then Lonergan often took the oppo’s best forward, which is also what I said.

So from 2008-2012 Scarlett was often not playing in the oppo’s best forward.

Is that incorrect?



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It is correct, in this period, Scarlett could quite often mind problematic small forwards as needed but his real value was in intercepting and running and creating.