Who will adopt the choker tag?

[Horj]

It's a weird one. You'd think that what you said would be the case. It's logical. However, there have been some well-known cases of a choker psychology that exists in a sporting club thru decades, thru multiple player lists.

Collingwood for instance, lost about 11 GF's spanning 32 years. Glenelg lost about 13 GF's spanning 30 years. St George NRL team since since 79 have lost about 5 GF's and have choked in the Prelim as many times or more. Oakland Raiders NFL have choked multiple times spanning 30 years in the Conference Championship game (similar to Prelim).

You also find there are teams that no matter what playing list, no matter what great coaches, etc, they implement, there is always a loser mentality/culture in the club. There are a few teams in various sports like that too.

So, not bagging anyone, but I also don't really understand how that happens in a club spanning 20, 30, 50, or 100 years.

Your right, but i still think it is all the player almost a snowball effect. One year a team loses the GF, they make another 6 years later half the list is there half the list is new yet they fail again because half the list still suffers from the previous GF loss. 10 years later they are in another. All the players from the first GF loss are long gone but the second lot are still there and they lose again. I believe it only takes a few players to pass on the losing ways. Vince Lomabardi said winning is contagious unfortunately so is losing and i think this is the case with all clubs that choke over a period of time

 

[Exe Gesis]

As for people snickering loving to call Port chokers for their 01-03 finals campaign. There's no denying Port choked. However, it can be a carthatic thing. In the SANFL port lost a GF in the 60's and it took them many years of choking and failure before they got back in 76 but choked again in the GF. After that, it shook them up and made them win multiple back-to-back flags.

I think it largely depends on the culture in the club how a choke affects the club. Port survived and excelled in the SANFL post 76. And survived and excelled in 2004 taking a flag. Many other choking teams from random years in the VFL/AFL have failed to make amends so quickly and win that elusive flag. If it doesnt kill you it will make you stronger seems to be an attitude that many teams have after a choke. Essendon, Hawthorn, etc, have choked in years but bounced back. Winning culture in the club.

Some teams however, it can really stunt their growth after choking. Melbourne has sort of done it last two years. West Coast, Adelaide, St Kilda and Geelong did it last year. Geelong and St KIlda the last two years, and even going back to the nineties they both had choking efforts.

It may well stunt Geelong and St Kilda due to the irregularity of their chances being at the top, which they dont see too often historically.

 

[Bestbird]

Off the top of my head, Saddington was showing handy form up forward before re-injuring himself. Whether or not that would have translated into a GF start would have been dependant on form preceding the GF.

An uninjured Doyle would have altered the ruck or forward set up (possibly)

And an uninjured Maxfield would have taken the place of Dempster most likely.

Apart from the above, I doubt that anyone else would have warranted consideration for inclusion.

With Ball and Jolly avalable in the ruck (leaving Goodes free to roam) and our main forwards available I'm not sure if Doyle would have got a look in either.

The injures we sustained were far enough out from the finals to allow us to settle players in and admittedly we probably had the most settled side of any come finals time.

Trying to be as objective as possible

I would have thought a fairer comparison of regular players who played most of the season (the reason the sides got there in the first place) would have been


P Matera - N Davis

Both the premier small forwards for the respective sides with P Matera better overall but Davis a better finals performer.

Lynch - LRT

Both of a similar age, experience and versility, granted though that LRT played very well in the GF but before that they would have been ranked about the same or similar

Braun - Crouch

Again, similar age and experience, both unheralded but very reliable midfielders


B.Jones - ????

Not sure if Sydney have a youngish 20 game type third tall defender


BTW, i'm not making it a reason for WCE not winning the Granny, West Coast had the best available team on the park at the time and it was just not good enough to get over the line and Sydney were deserved winners

 

[outback jack]

Just out of curiosity though, why do you think the Crows as they stand only have one decent year left in them?

You see its better than having no yrs left like port, so handyandy is left a little bitter, as are many port power supporters here. There is a theme of each one popping up, then actually trying to deny they choked.

 

[Exe Gesis]

One year a team loses the GF, they make another 6 years later half the list is there half the list is new yet they fail again because half the list still suffers from the previous GF loss. 10 years later they are in another. All the players from the first GF loss are long gone but the second lot are still there and they lose again. I believe it only takes a few players to pass on the losing ways. Vince Lomabardi said winning is contagious unfortunately so is losing and i think this is the case with all clubs that choke over a period of time

I never considered that. That's probably the reason then. Well explained. It makes sense for sure, because you're right, that second lot of players would carry it on. But don't you think it's weird still how, that first or second lot of choking players often go to new clubs and immediately win a GF?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

So you agree with me about three of the five players I mentioned, but you dont agree with me. Hmmm, how does that logic work?

Is Everitt and Hall not fitting in the clubs salary cap StKilda's fault? YES. You paid too much for other players - Black, Hamill, Penny, who either were not worth the money or were not able to get on the park and contribute.

I'm not sure where I said I don't agree with you??

I certianly disagree with you on the call that not having Everitt cost us a flag. Certainly disagree with it.

If Hall was still on the list, we would have made room in the cap to keep him and it probably would have been justified - he's a star.

There's no way I could condone losing Hamill or anyone for that matter due to salary cap pressure, to keep Everitt on our list had he not been pushed out.

 

[outback jack]

I think it largely depends on the culture in the club how a choke affects the club.

strongly agree, port power being a new club are yet to establish a successful culture. Some bigfooty die-hearts can say what they like about port claiming the port magpies history, but several references from former coaches and mark himself shows the club is still very new and not quite sure of itself. Its yet to establish that winning finals culture.

 

[hotpie]

I'm not sure where I said I don't agree with you?

The bit where you said no.

 

[Horj]

I never considered that. That's probably the reason then. Well explained. It makes sense for sure, because you're right, that second lot of players would carry it on. But don't you think it's weird still how, that first or second lot of choking players often go to new clubs and immediately win a GF?

Yeah, prime example being fitzroy merging with brisbane, but as the lions i dont think they ever established a losing culture, they had some failures but when it was their time they stood up. But if these players enter a winning atmosphere then they will feel apart of it.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The bit where you said no.

The 'No' was in direct relation to the call on Everitt.

My mistake for not making it clearer.

 

[Quadzilla]

You see its better than having no yrs left like port, so handyandy is left a little bitter, as are many port power supporters here. There is a theme of each one popping up, then actually trying to deny they choked.

We choked two years in a row then won the flag but then so did the Crows in 2005, jack! Lets see how 06 pans out?

 

[Exe Gesis]

strongly agree, port power being a new club are yet to establish a successful culture. Some bigfooty die-hearts can say what they like about port claiming the port magpies history, but several references from former coaches and mark himself shows the club is still very new and not quite sure of itself. Its yet to establish that winning finals culture.

Well, im not going to weigh into that aside, cos its a side-issue. The point is choking. Port choked in 01-03, but they made amends immediately in 04. Meaning they have or at least are establishing a winning culture in the AFL. However, to touch on your point about a "new" team, the reason Port bounced back in 04 and won so emphatically was due to them calling on their Port Magpies heritage/attachment. Regardless of whether they really still ARE the same Port Magpies entity or not, they DO emotionally/mentally attach themselves to that heritage and therefore at least in their minds they have that winning culture in them to call upon. Seeing as choking is all a mental thing, then it's no different to mentally attach your "new" club to the Port Magpies heritage if it does the trick (winning 04).

 

[Horj]

Well, im not going to weigh into that aside, cos its a side-issue. The point is choking. Port choked in 01-03, but they made amends immediately in 04. Meaning they have or at least are establishing a winning culture in the AFL. However, to touch on your point about a "new" team, the reason Port bounced back in 04 and won so emphatically was due to them calling on their Port Magpies heritage/attachment. Regardless of whether they really still ARE the same Port Magpies entity or not, they DO emotionally/mentally attach themselves to that heritage and therefore at least in their minds they have that winning culture in them to call upon.

True each player still recites the same creed Fos Williams wrote back in the 50's

 

[Exe Gesis]

It's all mental, we'd all agree, choking and succeeding. If attaching or believing your club is born out of the same old successful Magpies heritage makes you win, play better, put that teal guernsey on with the same pride as the Magpies guernsey used to.....then no one can use that against Port or any team for attaching themselves to a mental ideal.

Same I would think with Fitzroy fans mentally believing in and attaching themselves to the Brisbane Lions successful culture. They are attached by name Lions, and by color, and guernsey design, and written documents. So its not a fabricated attachment/belief. Nor is the Power's attachment/belief in their attachment to the Magpies....by name, color, guernsey/logo, written documents.

 

[Syd]

Trying to be as objective as possible

I would have thought a fairer comparison of regular players who played most of the season (the reason the sides got there in the first place) would have been

Perhaps comparing player types to player types, but I was trying to match up unavailable to play due to injury (as you originally asked (?)).

BTW, i'm not making it a reason for WCE not winning the Granny, West Coast had the best available team on the park at the time and it was just not good enough to get over the line and Sydney were deserved winners

Ta.

Its funny that some opposition supporters are more upset by us winning than Eagles supporters themselves.

 

[outback jack]

Well, im not going to weigh into that aside, cos its a side-issue. The point is choking. Port choked in 01-03, but they made amends immediately in 04. Meaning they have or at least are establishing a winning culture in the AFL. However, to touch on your point about a "new" team, the reason Port bounced back in 04 and won so emphatically was due to them calling on their Port Magpies heritage/attachment. Regardless of whether they really still ARE the same Port Magpies entity or not, they DO emotionally/mentally attach themselves to that heritage and therefore at least in their minds they have that winning culture in them to call upon. Seeing as choking is all a mental thing, then it's no different to mentally attach your "new" club to the Port Magpies heritage if it does the trick (winning 04).

...the reason Port bounced back in 04 and won so emphatically was due to them calling on their Port Magpies heritage/attachment.

what has made you think of this? or what quotes/evidence from players/coaches do you have to think this way?

The reasons i would say is that you drafted in the hardness that you needed and they had settled ie, hardwick, pickett etc. You had a bunch of guys who had been humiliated for 2-3 yrs and were desperate to win so they werent embarrassed again (quotes from players). And most importantly mark changed his flawed game plan.

Also, you got your bit of luck you had to have too, had lynch and brown not gone down plus the prelim MCG fiasco for brisbane not happened, it could of been alot different. When lynch went down there was only going to be one winner.

Certainly your line about drawing from the port magpies seems more a fairy tale than actually factual. All evidence i have seen and quotes i've heard, shows you are a very new club.

 

[outback jack]

We choked two years in a row then won the flag but then so did the Crows in 2005, jack! Lets see how 06 pans out?

i would disagree choking is consistently failing come the big games, '05 was very open and anyones yr, its amazing we did as well as we did. We just didnt win it, but really no one expected us to anyway. A big difference to the powers constant chokes.

 

[Exe Gesis]

So to run on Horj's earlier comments....in reverse, the same would probably apply to clubs like Geelong and St Kilda, their mental attachment to past and recent failures/chokes. St Kilda had such hard times coming last over 20 times during their early period that a "culture" or stigma got attached to them inside that club of being a "failure" to everyone else. Often, when every other team mocks you and labels you a loser, it can subconsciously stay planted in your own psychology. Like, when someones father might constantly mock their kid and call them a loser all their life, often the kid believes it and becomes one. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Geelong losing all those GF's in the 80's-90's and missing out last couple years, would probably mean the same thing. Malcolm Blight immediately went the Crows and suddenly was a back-to-back GF winner. He was always capable of it, but there were doubts on him personally after those Geelong failures....time proved it was Geelong not him that owned that choking mentality.

 

[Syd]

Well, im not going to weigh into that aside, cos its a side-issue. The point is choking. Port choked in 01-03, but they made amends immediately in 04.

Not to be too pedantic, but if Port made amends "immediately" from choking, wouldn't that have been in 2002?

If they had made amends "soon" after choking wouldn't that have been
in 2003?

But if the term you were looking for was "eventually", then 2004 is acceptable.

 

[outback jack]

Lets see how 06 pans out?

agree, the amount of times mark has talked up your young players already i think he knows you're in trouble. Has he missed praising a player yet? Bad sign.

 

[Syd]

i would disagree choking is consistently failing come the big games...

I would suggest to you, that that's EXACTLY what choking is.

I submit for evidence your honour...

 

[Exe Gesis]

what has made you think of this? or what quotes/evidence from players/coaches do you have to think this way?

Certainly your line about drawing from the port magpies seems more a fairy tale than actually factual. All evidence i have seen and quotes i've heard, shows you are a very new club.

1. You yourself often say that it was only a recent development of Mark Williams and others to try to re-attach themselves to the heritage of the Magpies. Therefore, that alone is evidence that the Power drew upon such an attachment. It has been spoken a lot about in the media, from players and coaches etc, that they consider themselves the Magpies evolved into the AFL, like during Heritage week, heritage guernsey, and all the other comments, would indicate they draw upon such an attachment to influence their own psychology into being a better team, a winning team. It worked 04.

2. Not going to weigh into that debate. Believe what you want, you have certain evidence that suggests youre right. Others opposed to you, have their evidence which also suggests theyre right. The club itself does too. If the AFL can believe that they are the VFL still, despite a name change, new documents, new boards, new league structure, then likewise so can Port Power claim the same about the Magpies. Either way it doesnt really matter what you or I think, it's what Port thinks/believes. We can't change the AFL into admitting theyre a new competition with no affiliation with the old VFL, and nor can anyone change the Port Power's beliefs/attachments.

 

[outback jack]

I would suggest to you, that that's EXACTLY what choking is.

I submit for evidence your honour...

agree, i found this picture earlier too.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Not to be too pedantic, but if Port made amends "immediately" from choking, wouldn't that have been in 2002?

If they had made amends "soon" after choking wouldn't that have been
in 2003?

But if the term you were looking for was "eventually", then 2004 is acceptable.

It is pedantic, but thats ok. Either case, immediate is still not inappropriate because go back thru history books, and there arent many teams at all that had their chance at the top for that long. As in, some teams had a great 1 or 2 years, and then went thru 5-10 years of mediocrity. Others had 3-4 great years at the top, then went thru 5-10 years of mediocrity. So....in hindsight, we can look back and say, "that squad had their chance to amend things only in that 2 year reign, or 4 year reign, before their inevitable period of mediocrity.....and, looking back, on Port 01-04, you could say that if they were ever going to win a flag it was during that period, if they faltered in 04, they might not get another chance at being a top side again for 5-10 years. 05 showed they MIGHT be on the wane, could be out of the finals or GF for 3-10 years. So did they make amends while theyre team was hot? While they had that chance? Yes. It took them 3 years, but they did it. That's immediate. Because they didnt wait till their dry rot was over (say 05-10) before getting another chance to amend it.

Im sure if you look back thru history, a team lost a GF one year, then won it the next, then went thru a dry rot. Or they, lsot multiple prelims/GFs during their 5 year span, and never got a chance again till another 10 years later.

 

[outback jack]

1. You yourself often say that it was only a recent development of Mark Williams and others to try to re-attach themselves to the heritage of the Magpies. Therefore, that alone is evidence that the Power drew upon such an attachment. It has been spoken a lot about in the media, from players and coaches etc, that they consider themselves the Magpies evolved into the AFL, like during Heritage week, heritage guernsey, and all the other comments, would indicate they draw upon such an attachment to influence their own psychology into being a better team, a winning team. It worked 04.

no no i've said that port adelaide power will refers to their 'history' when it suites, ie come heritage week, this is for promotional purposes. Thats very different to what goes on inside the club. If anything i've heard players like chad cornes in heritage week distance themselves from the port magpies. Havent you?

If you had this psychology to draw on btw, why didnt it happen earlier to prevent the chokes? Doesnt make sense what you're saying.

2. Not going to weigh into that debate. Believe what you want, you have certain evidence that suggests youre right. Others opposed to you, have their evidence which also suggests theyre right. The club itself does too. If the AFL can believe that they are the VFL still, despite a name change, new documents, new boards, new league structure, then likewise so can Port Power claim the same about the Magpies. Either way it doesnt really matter what you or I think, it's what Port thinks/believes. We can't change the AFL into admitting theyre a new competition with no affiliation with the old VFL, and nor can anyone change the Port Power's beliefs/attachments.

you're referring to the history debate which is another issue. I was referring to where you got this idea that they 'drew on their attachment with the magpies', i've never heard that line of thinking ever. I was saying i've heard mark williams say quite a few times 'in our short history' like when you had a bad loss last yr. And also you have former fitness coaches coming out saying the club feels very new. I think my points about a change of game plan, the added hardness and a bit of luck, plus having a talented squad are far more valid points. Your 'we drew on our history' is nice fairlytale stuff, but not really practical.