- Aug 18, 2018
- 32,279
- 54,972
- AFL Club
- Geelong
Fingers crossed whichever finishes 9th
In all seriousness, Carlton can't fall over again surely
In all seriousness, Carlton can't fall over again surely
Prediction Who will be better in 2025? Carlton or Hawthorn
- Thread starter threesixpio
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Mar 25, 2019
- 14,091
- 29,035
- AFL Club
- Carlton
You underestimate Carltons ability to break their own supporters hearts
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,403
- 26,387
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
- Worst small forwards in the league.
- A defence that is held together by one player.
- A midfield that is entirely dependent on one player.
- No good players outside of our top 5.
- Aug 18, 2018
- 32,279
- 54,972
- AFL Club
- Geelong
Tides change in time
- May 16, 2016
- 2,619
- 5,106
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Newcombes backend of 2024 and finals series is as good if not better than anything Walsh has done.
His averages in the last 5 games of 2024
6.8 coaches votes pg / 34 over 5 games
31.4 disposals @ 83%
13 cp
5.2 inside 50s
6.8 clearances
6 marks
0.6 goals
1.8 goal assists (1st amg mids)
10.6 score involvements (1st)
3.6 tackles
And his averages of the last 5 home and away season games
29 disposals @ 82% DE
13 contested
8.5 clearances (5 CL)
1 goal a game
1.6 goal assists
9.2 score involvements
28 coaches votes over 5 games
Finals games:
V Dogs
35 disposals @ 80%
12 contested
1 goal
10 score involvements
9 marks
4 marks
6 inside 50s
V Port
31 disposals @ 77%
16 contested
2 goal assists
6 score involvements
6 clearances
6 tackles
4 inside 50z
As shown, his impact around the contest and clearances were quality, he’s an inside bull, and has a prowess of exploding from contests with the ball and delivering by hand or foot with precision. He has a damaging long kick and was damaging forward as a marking or crumbing option, his main asset was his delivery to the forwards with near on 2 goal assists on average and 10+ score inv. He came into the league with a tackle record on debut and still holds that strength and intent around stoppages he loses.
Newcombe would clearly be the best midfielder at West Coast, Geelong, Richmond, St Kilda, and would be up there for every other side, as equal 1 or 2nd. At Hawthorn, Day is on par or close.
Interestingly Newcombe was poor in the Geelong games in 2024.
19 disposal average. No goals or goal assists.
Could've just been a coincidence but then he had just 15 disposals, 0 goals, 0 goal assists against the Cats in 2023.
A bit of a bogey side.
Hawthorns midfield is not average.
It was shown that Hawthorns post clearance game was the best in the competition by a country mile. I wrote an article on it for gods sake. It was up there with the best of all time, and that is largely because of the wings and mids. The mids were clearly very strong around the stoppages because of the ability and damage from stoppages aswell.
You can’t say
Meek, Newcombe, Day and Worpel + wings of D’Ambrosio and even Weddle next year. Is an average midfield. The depth behind this is Nash, Mackenzie and Ward + Hustwaite.
Ward had a breakout game in the final against the Dogs showing his A Grade talent, Mackenzie is quality and is ready to break out, and others like Nash is good depth/a good solid role player, as is Morrison and Hustwaite (developing).
Average is a poor call.
Had an absolute gem of a game against you guys I believe 2022
Had 31 and 19 kicks in the wet.
But it’s an interesting point, although the team played poorly both times, he’s a barometer for the side, when he plays poor Hawthorn tend to.
Saad is quality
Newman was very good last year, underrated
Cerra is a solid mid, hasn’t kicked on with the talent he has
Docherty is a workhorse, but his best is well and truly behind him
Acres is a pretty good winger
Hollands a solid half forward, Williams showed to be a decent forward in a small sample size, Fogarty is a solid role player, Gov good at intercepting and a solid player, Silvagni is okay.
But out of these players, who plays in Hawthorns best 22?
Saad would, likely replaces one of Impey or Amon, likely Impey.
Newman wouldn’t make it purely out of the immense options Hawthorn has in his role, too many intercepting types already like Sicily, Scrimshaw and Battle who he isn’t getting a game over or can’t defend one on one as good as.
Cerra I presume would be there abouts, Docherty maybe.
Acres would but you’d be fighting those three for the filler mid roles or extra wing spot, only so many can fit. Likely only 1 or at most 2.
Hollands isn’t getting a game over MacDonald or Moore at HF
Williams not over Ginnivan, Watson or the half forwards.
Silvagni no.
McGovern no.
Fogarty no.
If you’ve got any clue about football talent you’d agree. Day played as an intercepting rebounding defender, his aerial prowess is more “talent” as is his dual footed kicking, he is a clean, classy player who is also tough.Wtf are they putting in the water down at Waverly??
Day is more naturally gifted than Cripps???
He will likely continue to fill out. It’s like saying Bont is a more complete and naturally talented player to Cripps, he is but doesn’t insinuate he’s a better player, even tho I think he is.
Day is a Bont type as the tall, classy mid that’s become more popular.
hawkman
Hall of Famer
Cripps did get 45 Brownlow votes
It’s kind of a shit fest contest but the belief for both teams can be backed on.
Carlton have probably the best spine in the league and their top talent of 6/7 is the best.
Their depth is severely lacking and that’s the ongoing issue for them.
Hawthorn have a more well rounded team and the depth for 2025 is well and truly that of a flag side.
Hawthorn had the best defense and one of the most potent forward lines without Lewis their best key position forward. Midfield being one of the better performing in the league with the damage and ability to do more than just win the ball, but be impactful forward of centre.
Carlton had a strong defense, strong midfield but their forward line relied heavily on their two key pillars, an improvement in depth and small forwards could propel them into contention.
I think Hawthorn are ahead due to the depth and spread of quality but it’s hearsay for sure.
Carlton have probably the best spine in the league and their top talent of 6/7 is the best.
Their depth is severely lacking and that’s the ongoing issue for them.
Hawthorn have a more well rounded team and the depth for 2025 is well and truly that of a flag side.
Hawthorn had the best defense and one of the most potent forward lines without Lewis their best key position forward. Midfield being one of the better performing in the league with the damage and ability to do more than just win the ball, but be impactful forward of centre.
Carlton had a strong defense, strong midfield but their forward line relied heavily on their two key pillars, an improvement in depth and small forwards could propel them into contention.
I think Hawthorn are ahead due to the depth and spread of quality but it’s hearsay for sure.
It’s crazy how big he actually is. He’s 187cm and looks like he’s filled out like a balloon ready to pop except it’s purely muscle. He’s also getting quicker and it’s been noticeable at training already. Always been a strong and explosive mid, but if he can continue to work on his pace and agility to reach an even higher level. He’ll explode. Already pretty agile and quick but if he can continue to focus on it, it will be a separation.
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,403
- 26,387
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
I haven't said a bad word about Newcombe - in fact I said he was going to be a star in the post you replied to. Newcombe did indeed have a terrific finish to the year and an incredible finals series. But he hasn't gone past Walsh who has played at a high level for much longer than Newcombe imo. Their performances in the 2023 (Walsh) and 2024 (Newcombe) finals series are probably their peaks so far and they are pretty similar but Walsh has been the more consistent player to date.
Star players and good players are a different story. Stars and superstars even more so. Hence why i said good / star players.
You probably have a max capacity of about 6/7 stars in one side, maybe more for a top team like you’d see with an all time side (Lions Hawks three peat, Geelong dynasty). Superstars are even less with most teams only having a hand few at most. But good and very good players who may be bordering on that, the limit isn’t at 10-12. But is there abouts.
Fogarty and Pittonet
Depth?
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,403
- 26,387
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
A midfield doesn't function because of any one player.
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,403
- 26,387
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
Then I don't really get your comment about Carlton not having enough of "these types". I listed 13 just off the top of my head that would be considered good at a minimum and you are saying most teams will have around 10-12.
Walsh’s consistency is a key area, but since his 2021 season Newcombe has been better, taking in consistency. Doesn’t help Walsh being injured in parts. Newcombes peak is higher in my eyes, don’t think Walsh has the natural ability to play forward or being as damaging forward of centre, as shown by the goal assists and score inv avg shown in a peak run by Newcombe backend of 2024. (2 and 10).
It is hard to compare them anyway, Walsh is a great two way runner, his accumulation is very high, he has good hands and he is clean, but lacks the damage in his kicking and generally speaking he isn’t a threat going forward. He kicks goals from the midfield but he isn’t someone who will play as a forward to rest or be a reliable option to score. Whereas Newcombe is, maybe not at a consistent level of impact scoreboard wise, but if you’ve watched him you’d know. He is strong overhead and his crumbing is at a good level, he is also a reliable finisher. He’s shown an ability to be a super damaging kick going inside 50 whereas that’s been a weak area of Walsh’s game.
The difference is Walsh is genuinely an elite runner both ways and impacts at both ends, he is what Nathan Ellis is for cricket, giving it 110% without any effort left and will happily play injured to get his team over the line, would run through a brick wall for his teammates. Not saying Newcombe doesn’t, as he’s also strong at running both ways, his defensive intent and 110% approach. But it’s a staple of Walsh’s game.
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,403
- 26,387
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
That's fine happy to agree to disagree on this point. I do agree with you about them being different types of midfielders.
Last edited:
- Oct 4, 2018
- 10,403
- 26,387
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal & NY Knicks
I like Scrimshaw but I can't see a world where Newman wouldn't get a game over him currently. Newman has been playing at a very high level especially in the last two seasons. You also don't need the additional height Scrimshaw provides in a back 7 that has Weitering, Barrass, and Sicily. I think it would be very difficult to leave Saad and Newman out of a combined team.
On the other two players you mentioned in Acres and Cerra. In my opinion most teams should line up with at least 7 players that can play midfield with two being wingers. Think the wingers pick themselves with Acres from Carlton and D'Ambrosio from the Hawks. Both have different strengths which would complement each other well. And then when you look at the remaining five midfielders there is a very clear core four with Cripps, Walsh, Day and Newcombe. The 5th in my opinion would have to be Cerra. I don't think any of the other Hawthorn midfielder's have shown more than him to date. I'd probably even have Hewett next in line (i.e., 6th mid) but we wouldn't need another inside midfielder in a combined team.
Beautiful thing to watch unfold
Similar threads
