Prediction Who will be better in 2025? Carlton or Hawthorn

Who will be better in 2025

  • Hawthorn

    Votes: 155 68.9%
  • Carlton

    Votes: 70 31.1%

  • Total voters
    225

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LOL
Hardwick is in his prime now.
Saad was in his prime 3-5 years ago.
3-5 years ago?? Lmao wtf are you on? His 2022 & 2023 were fantastic, had an injury ravaged 2024.
Clearly Hardwick the form player heading into 2025
He's literally never been the form player outside a year where Saad was wiped out by injury for a large chunk of it...
Hardwick again clearly consistently better in recent times.
Finishing high in a BnF of a crap team doesn't mean squat. Saad finished 6th in 2022, a year he was put in the AA squad... Are you telling me Hardwick had a better season?
One player dropping off, it happens when you get to 30.

Yeah, Saad used to be good...he ain't been at that level for a couple of years.

Heading into 2025, you either take the bloke in his prime playing the better recent footy (Hardwick) or a 31 year old who was good when at Essendon before COVID.
Delusional
 
3-5 years ago?? Lmao wtf are you on? His 2022 & 2023 were fantastic, had an injury ravaged 2024.
We are in 2025 now, 2022 was 3 seasons ago.

That was his peak season, and he built up to it with good footy at Essendon.

Use whatever stats you want, all show a decline in 23 and 24.

He's literally never been the form player outside a year where Saad was wiped out by injury for a large chunk of it...
3 of last 4 years, Hardwick been better.

2022 the only year where Saad has been better.
Finishing high in a BnF of a crap team doesn't mean squat. Saad finished 6th in 2022, a year he was put in the AA squad... Are you telling me Hardwick had a better season?
No, it was Saad's good season.
Delusional
Delusional is pretending you are going to get 25-28 year old Saad output in 2025 when he is 31 and on the slide.
 
Of course a player who is used more offensively will have a better profile and stats to a player who stays deeper in more of a lock down role.
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Jacob Weitering vs Darcy Moore

Stalwart lockdown specialist vs Giant peroxide galah who plays loose 'attacking' football.

Weitering left vs Moore right.

Coaches votes:
2016 - 6 vs 2
2017 - 0 vs 1
2018 - 0 vs 0
2019 - 8 vs 15
2020 - 22 vs 27
2021 - 39 vs 24
2022 - 23 vs 17
2023 - 31 vs 45
20224 - 19 vs 7

Total:
148 vs 138

Average:
16.44 vs 15.33

Brownlow votes:

2016 - 0 vs 0
2017 - 0 vs 0
2018 - 0 vs 0
2019 - 1 vs 1
2020 - 1 vs 6
2021 - 1 vs 2
2022 - 3 vs 0
2023 - 6 vs 3
2024 - 0 vs 0

Total:
12 vs 12

Average:
1.33 vs 1.33

BnF results:

2016 - DnF vs DnF
2017 - DnF vs DnF
2018 - DnF vs DnF
2019 - 6th vs DnF
2020 - 1st vs 4th
2021 - 2nd vs 7th
2022 - DnF vs 3rd
2023 - 1st vs 9th
2024 - 4th vs 10th

Total:
Featured - 5 vs 5
Top 5 - 4 vs 2

All Australians:

Weitering - 1
Moore - 2

All Australian Squads:

Weitering - 5

Moore - 2
 

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Lets have a look at the comparison... Since 2016 - When Hardwick debuted in the AFL

Saad left vs Hardwick right

Player ratings:

2016 - 11.24 vs 1.30
2017 - 11.71 vs 6.94
2018 - 10.81 vs 9.10
2019 - 10.79 vs 8.41
2020 - 10.54 vs 7.30
2021 - 11.48 vs 9.57
2022 - 13.13 vs 8.22
2023 - 11.36 vs 9.79
2024 - 11.89 vs 9.52

Total:
102.94 vs 70.15

Average:
11.43 vs 7.79


Coaches votes:
2016 - 0 vs 0
2017 - 0 vs 1
2018 - 22 vs 10
2019 - 22 vs 5
2020 - 16 vs 0
2021 - 1 vs 8
2022 - 25 vs 14
2023 - 10 vs 10
20224 - 3 vs 21

Total:
99 vs 69

Average:
11 vs 7.66

Brownlow votes:

2016 - 0 vs 0
2017 - 1 vs 0
2018 - 3 vs 0
2019 - 0 vs 0
2020 - 2 vs 0
2021 - 0 vs 0
2022 - 3 vs 0
2023 - 3 vs 0
2024 - 0 vs 2

Total:
12 vs 2

Average:
1.33 vs 0.22

BnF results:

2016 - DnF vs DnF
2017 - 10th vs DnF
2018 - 4th vs 2nd
2019 - 3rd vs 5th
2020 - 3rd vs DnF
2021 - 6th vs 2nd
2022 - 6th vs 4th
2023 - 8th vs 8th
2024 - DnF vs 5th

Total:
Featured - 8 vs 6
Top 5 - 3 vs 5

All Australians:

Saad - 1

Hardwick - 0

All Australian Squads:

Saad - 1

Hardwick - 0
My favourite part of that 'compelling' argument is the average of 1.33 Brownlow votes per year trumping 0.22... I guess that makes Saad 6 times the player Hardwick is?

But only a Carlton supporter would try to argue that a player who hasn't had a better club B&F finish in the last 4 seasons is a better player going into 2025....
 
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Disposals are a meaningless stat on their own. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that.
Speaking of rocket scientists, it doesn’t take one to know that it is delusional to think that that it’s not plausible that Hawthorn will be better than Carlton.

Carlton have traded out their 3rd and 6th leading goal kickers for 2024 who’s combined total was equal to McKay, they missed one game between them. Nothing was brought in to replace that or that is likely to make an impact in 2025. Carlton’s depth is worse and in turn I would argue that the team is worse too. The leading goal kicker for 2024 has already gone in for surgery over the pre-season and Newman’s season is over. The team is one, two or three injuries away from another disappointing season, and let’s face it, Vossy won’t listen and Weill play them anyway making injuries worse.

Then there is what Hawthorn have done, Hawks have exponentially improved their defense with two elite defenders that are added to an undersized defense that had already managed to be the 5th best (20 odd points short of the best?) in 2025 and are still young enough to have organic growth.

I’m not writing Carlton off by any means but to me the season is on a knifes edge before it has even started.
 
That’s what you took from that? You nit pick one point and ignore the rest of the post?
The rest of your post about Owies/Kennedy, their replacements and our depth has been discussed countless times by Carlton fans on here.

The part about the season being on a "knife's edge" is new information.
 

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Blake Hardwick has consistently been one of the most underrated players in the game for years now.

Someone might have to get the actual stats for me, but Cody Weightman has nightmares about Blake, such is the dominance he has over him.

This isn't a knock on Quaynor, but Hawks supporters felt a little aggrieved that he was given an All Australian squad position a couple of years back when Dimma had been performing the same role to almost an equivalent level for years prior. That is actually a better player comparison, however that isn't the point of this thread/discussion.

Saad is a weapon when performing to his highest standard. No denying that. But he's still primarily a metres gained player.

Hardwick can play pure lock down on an opposition small forward.
Can kick 60m barrells out of full back.
Can push forward and almost single handedly be the difference on the scoreboard (largely forgotten that he actually topped the goal kicking in his TAC cup year).

If any opposition supporter has to pick one, it's VERY plausible that they are taking Hardwick due to that versatility. It doesn't have to be a knock on Saad.
 
Hawks have a very good list. A deep 22 but lack the star power that others possess and are still lacking in a couple of key spots.

A team with Chol and Ramsden as the spearheads up forward for instance, doesn't fill me with confidence, a lot will depend on if they can get Dear and Lewis back on the park and playing good football.

One minute Hawks depth is average but now has a deep 22, Hawks midfield is average at best but now has a very good list ……. some on here jump around like a yo yo!

And in terms of star power ….. Hawks don’t care about the individual. The Hawks moto has always been to have a star team and I am very confident that Hawthorn have now got the coach & playing list to sustainably have a good crack at another premiership starting from now for the next 7-10 years. Sammy is a genius to put HFC in this position once again as rebuilds ain’t easy.

Again not a big fan of which player is better but watching Dimma since day 1 he is tough as nails, beautiful kick, can switch forward and in 175 games has only missed 3 games I think. One of the most reliable and internally most highly respected at the club.
 
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Donald Trump GIF by Election 2016


Jacob Weitering vs Darcy Moore

Stalwart lockdown specialist vs Giant peroxide galah who plays loose 'attacking' football.
Why didn't you actually post your usual inane stats like player ratings and pop up a footywire comparison or two to show how many disposals and marks they take?

Using coaches votes and BnFs is how I like to compare players.

Pretty fair to mount a case that Weitering has been better than Moore. He has been more consistent than Darcy.

But what do the player ratings and stats say?
 
Can you please repeat this statement in the car/coll thread and tag all of your pie mates. It would truly be the first admittance
???
Most realise players like Pendles and Sidey are not going to turn the clock back and be dominant mids with the 30 disposals, supercoach avg of 110+ and player rating of 16+ and finish top5 in the AFLCA coaches votes like they did in their prime back in 2010s.

But they have proven that even their reduced output of footy they provide in 2023-24 they are still performing different roles asked of them by the coaches and are still important to the team winning.

But yes, if you go the Walsh0 footywire comparison special between Noble and Sidey for 2024, Noble was the busier player with the better supercoach score.

Back to Hawks v Carlton, Hawks were already better in 2024, have quality reinforcements to add to their 22 for 2025 and have better youth with more scope for growth.

It is a top 4 contender v a team battling to hang on and not fall out of the 8.
 
The rest of your post about Owies/Kennedy, their replacements and our depth has been discussed countless times by Carlton fans on here.

The part about the season being on a "knife's edge" is new information.
It’s not new information for people that can see it. Carlton are top heavy and if a couple of key injuries happen it’s game over as your immediate depth has been traded.
A big chunk of your post was about injuries
A big chunk of my post was also about trade period, missing depth and the fact that your team has not improved for the immediate future and arguably has been made worse, but that’s cool.
 
It’s not new information for people that can see it. Carlton are top heavy and if a couple of key injuries happen it’s game over as your immediate depth has been traded.

A big chunk of my post was also about trade period, missing depth and the fact that your team has not improved for the immediate future and arguably has been made worse, but that’s cool.
It's interesting that everyone can see this.

Except Carlton supporters...
 
It’s not new information for people that can see it. Carlton are top heavy and if a couple of key injuries happen it’s game over as your immediate depth has been traded.
Didn't Carlton lose two important players to ACLs at the start of last season? And yet were able to begin the season well enough despite significant injury issues elsewhere on top of that.

And again the Kennedy/Owies talk with "no replacements" is not true. We have brought in a top 3 draft pick who provides more balance to the midfield than a Kennedy-type and have players that had significant injury issues in 24' to fill in a small forward role left by Owies who was very limited in a lot of areas.
 
Didn't Carlton lose two important players to ACLs at the start of last season? And yet were able to begin the season well enough despite significant injury issues elsewhere on top of that.

And again the Kennedy/Owies talk with "no replacements" is not true. We have brought in a top 3 draft pick who provides more balance to the midfield than a Kennedy-type and have players that had significant injury issues in 24' to fill in a small forward role left by Owies who was very limited in a lot of areas.
Is the expectation Jagga Smith plays r1?
 
Is the expectation Jagga Smith plays r1?
I would think so based on what has been coming out of the club and also the fact that he fills a need.

Not expecting him to come out a play like an A-grader but I think his skill set and the way he moves is something we have lacked for years, especially in that midfield group.
 
Didn't Carlton lose two important players to ACLs at the start of last season? And yet were able to begin the season well enough despite significant injury issues elsewhere on top of that.

And again the Kennedy/Owies talk with "no replacements" is not true. We have brought in a top 3 draft pick who provides more balance to the midfield than a Kennedy-type and have players that had significant injury issues in 24' to fill in a small forward role left by Owies who was very limited in a lot of areas.
Two season ending injuries and added injuries during the season to get dominated in an elimination final, that could never happen again I’m sure.

As for ‘no replacement’, I’m not sure if you have purposely taken that out of context or not but I quite obviously was referring to Carlton not replacing the depth you traded out in the trade period.
 

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Prediction Who will be better in 2025? Carlton or Hawthorn


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