Banter Who will be Better in 2025, Collingwood or Carlton? Part 4

[carlton_99]

In reality majority of rankings are subjective and almost meaningless.

The point being it isn't a Fadge view, or a Carlton fan just complaining about a B or C ranking. It is an unbiased source for player rankings.

Carlton have the top end talent. More A graders than the Pies, and it has been consistent since 2022. Blues have the star A graders = Cripps, Walsh, Weitering, Curnow, McKay.

And with them winning brownlows, Coleman's, AA gigs they haven't been able to win more than 13 games.

Pies won a flag as we have a much broader spread of quality contributors aka B-graders.

Collingwood had a better performing list in 2023. Carlton had a better performing list in 2024. We wait to see what happens in 2025 - I have both teams in my top 4 so expect improvement from both.

 

[Fadge]

You only just won the flag and only from the effort of your stars like Pendlebury, Crisp, Sidebottom, De Goey and a Norm Smith to a player who has only repeated the effort once or twice

Hill's done it twice... in finals. Check out his 2023 Qualifying Final against Melbourne. I'd much prefer him to be a C Grader during home and away and step up in finals, than the other way around...

We've already discussed how good Mitchell was in that season, and the finals series.

J. Daicos was All-Australian and won the club best and fairest in that premiership year.

We don't make the Grand Final if not for the efforts of McStay in the Qualifying and Preliminary Finals.

Maynard was All-Australian, and runner-up in our club best and fairest.

Moore was All-Australian.

Quaynor was in the All-Australian squad.

Have we mentioned Nick Daicos?

Collingwood were comfortably the best team in 2023, having finished the home and away season a game and percentage clear on top, and winning all three finals.

 

[Robertio]

Hill's done it twice... in finals. Check out his 2023 Qualifying Final against Melbourne. I'd much prefer him to be a C Grader during home and away and step up in finals, than the other way around...

We've already discussed how good Mitchell was in that season, and the finals series.

J. Daicos was All-Australian and won the club best and fairest in that premiership year.

We don't make the Grand Final if not for the efforts of McStay in the Qualifying and Preliminary Finals.

Maynard was All-Australian, and runner-up in our club best and fairest.

Moore was All-Australian.

Quaynor was in the All-Australian squad.

Have we mentioned Nick Daicos?

Different story in 2024 though and i said Hill has only done it once or twice since he won the Norm Smith and anyway your post had nothing to do with what i was saying. It was your good players that won you the GF not your depth players.

 

[Fadge]

Different story in 2024 though and i said Hill has only done it once or twice since he won the Norm Smith and anyway your post had nothing to do with what i was saying. It was your good players that won you the GF not your depth players.

Your comments about Hill confuse me. Is he a good player, or a depth player?

But we've been told McStay is a spud.... yet we don't get to the Grand Final without him.

Frampton played many different roles in 2023, including his role on Andrews in the Grand Final.

Your A Graders will perform in finals regardless - that is why they are A Graders (well, there are one or two notable exceptions to this rule). It's what you get out of your B, C and D Graders that make the difference between contending for a spot in the finals, and contending for premierships.

Also, you mentioned 5 'good players' that won the premiership for us.

I mentioned 7 more that were highly influential and/or had All-Australian team/squad years.

And I didn't even mention Mihocek or Elliott.

Who are the dozen Carlton players who can be All-Australian and/or be highly influential in finals, to elevate you from a team that contends to qualify for finals, to a team that contends for premierships?

 

[Robertio]

Your comments about Hill confuse me. Is he a good player, or a depth player?

But we've been told McStay is a spud.... yet we don't get to the Grand Final without him.

Frampton played many different roles in 2023, including his role on Andrews in the Grand Final.

Your A Graders will perform in finals regardless - that is why they are A Graders (well, there are one or two notable exceptions to this rule). It's what you get out of your B, C and D Graders that make the difference between contending for a spot in the finals, and contending for premierships.

Hill is a great small forward, wish we had him at Carlton but how do you rate a small forward when they are usually inconsistent, he is a matchwinner but still a way to go to get to Betts and Rioli standard so I would have him B grade at the moment.

 

[Fadge]

Hill is a great small forward, wish we had him at Carlton but how do you rate a small forward when they are usually inconsistent, he is a matchwinner but still a way to go to get to Betts and Rioli standard so I would have him B grade at the moment.

I fully agree with this.

But he has proven he can step up in big games, and therefore an example of a player that is so important to have on your list.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I fully agree with this.

But he has proven he can step up in big games, and therefore an example of a player that is so important to have on your list.

He was giving me Daniel Motlop vibes last year, trying to do too much, he'll be better with more aerial support this year and hopefully a return to basics

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Arr0w]

He was giving me Daniel Motlop vibes last year, trying to do too much, he'll be better with more aerial support this year and hopefully a return to basics

On SM-A225F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Xfactor small forwards generally lack consistency, but hopefully as he gets older, finds a greater level of maturity

Hill is a game turner

 

[Arr0w]

8th graders.....this is more like 3 year old kinder.

If it's stays on footy, without the personal jibes, it could be reasonable

Not sure if it lasts though Rob

 

[doppleganger]

You only just won the flag and only from the effort of your stars like Pendlebury, Crisp, Sidebottom, De Goey and a Norm Smith to a player who has only repeated the effort once or twice

Of the names you listed only Pendles finished top5 in Pies 2023 BnF.

Crisp, Sidey, DeGoey and B.Hill had their moments but weren't the blokes doing heavy lifting week in week out across the season.

The point is we have a greater spread of B-graders who contribute. Across the 2023 finals it was different players stepping up.

QF - Sidebottom, Crisp, Quaynor, Hill, Moore, WHE were great
PF - De Goey, Crisp, Pendlebury, Quaynor, N.Daicos, Cox were in the best players.
GF - Hill, N.Daicos, Crisp, Howe, Mitchell, Pendlebury were in the best with norm votes.

Crisp our player of the finals, in the best for all 3 finals, he is under the radar and is a B grader according to the rankings.

In 2023 Pies had 16 B/B+ graders compared with 12 for Carlton.

In 2025 Pies have 18 B/B+ graders compared with 13 for Carlton

Carlton have had the better top liners for many years now, but don't have the quality mature depth, aka B-graders, that recent premiers have had.

 

[South of the Yarra]

He's not.

Hard to run in a moon boot

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Of the names you listed only Pendles finished top5 in Pies 2023 BnF.

Crisp, Sidey, DeGoey and B.Hill had their moments but weren't the blokes doing heavy lifting week in week out across the season.

The point is we have a greater spread of B-graders who contribute. Across the 2023 finals it was different players stepping up.

QF - Sidebottom, Crisp, Quaynor, Hill, Moore, WHE were great
PF - De Goey, Crisp, Pendlebury, Quaynor, N.Daicos, Cox were in the best players.
GF - Hill, N.Daicos, Crisp, Howe, Mitchell, Pendlebury were in the best with norm votes.

Crisp our player of the finals, in the best for all 3 finals, he is under the radar and is a B grader according to the rankings.

In 2023 Pies had 16 B/B+ graders compared with 12 for Carlton.

In 2025 Pies have 18 B/B+ graders compared with 13 for Carlton

Carlton have had the better top liners for many years now, but don't have the quality mature depth, aka B-graders, that recent premiers have had.

And if Carlton are to make the jump it will be on the back of some of the kids jumping into that B grade bracket. I expect Ollie Hollands and Cowan to be there, not sure on the others just yet.

Jagga looks every bit a Walsh, Sheezel, Ashcroft, Daicos type 1st season performer but have to wait until he's had some game time before declaring that for certain.

The unknown is whether players like Moir, Motlop, Durdin, Lord etc take the leap. I doubt 2 kids improving a bit and a 1st year drafted will push us to the level we need to be, so we'd be hoping a few more of this lot can too.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Really doesn't matter who is A,B,C, D and E. It is how a team plays together and the role those players play within the structure.

 

[HeathySure]

Really doesn't matter who is A,B,C, D and E. It is how a team plays together and the role those players play within the structure.

Bingo

You also need a coach with a great game plan where the players buy in.

 

[carlton_99]

Really doesn't matter who is A,B,C, D and E. It is how a team plays together and the role those players play within the structure.

Exactly.

 

[doppleganger]

Really doesn't matter who is A,B,C, D and E. It is how a team plays together and the role those players play within the structure.

Of course it does.

Richmond have lost 2 A graders (Dusty and Bolton) and 4 B graders (Grimes, Baker, Rioli and Graham) from their 2024 list and replaced them with kids (D graders).

They enter 2025 with 0 A graders and just 9 B graders on their list.

You can't expect kids (D graders) to play important structural roles and be competitive with barely any quality A and B graders leading the way.

The B graders are the competent quality role players that good teams have lots of.

 

[Cyclops]

Obviously you need some of both, but team chemistry almost counts more than quality. In hindsight the Tigers 2017 or Hawthorn 2008 seem stacked with stars but at the time their lists were seen as less talented.

I'd argue adding Lynch to Richmond did more harm than good. Yes they added quality but he's a shit bloke.

Carltons reliance on the current list is bold, Voss has balls and is backing his guys in (and making a virtue of salary cap neccesity).

Us bringing in Houton and Perryman is also a gamble: straight up its a talent injection which seems safe, but it could go Cameron to Geelong, or it could go Grundy to Melbourne.

No question about character, Grundy and Houston and Cameron are all nice people, but team mechanics and emotions are so complicated.

This thread is like watching two weedy 8th graders fighting over who gets to go out with the lead nerd girl

Saints bringing the conversation around to dating school girls?

 

[Fadge]

I'd argue adding Lynch to Richmond did more harm than good. Yes they added quality but he's a shit bloke.

This might be the impression you get watching him play footy, but he is actually a ripping bloke.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

2025 will be the year of the Flagpie according to someone on the Pies board.

It's a bit early for the April fools jokes yet don't you think? Then again everyday is April fools day at Victoria Park!

 

[Robertio]

2025 will be the year of the Flagpie according to someone on the Pies board.

It's a bit early for the April fools jokes yet don't you think? Then again everyday is April fools day at Victoria Park!

It's January mate, they were saying the same thing last. January

 

[Fadge]

It's January mate, they were saying the same thing last. January

And the January before...

That's the thing.

Collingwood and it's supporters expect to contend for, and win, premierships.

We're due to contend for a flag, given we've had a full season since we last contended.

 

[Arr0w]

Might expect to "contend", but given the conversion rate, it's more of a participant

 

[fnerd]

It's January mate, they were saying the same thing last. January

Oh so we know they’re coming ?

 

[fnerd]

2025 will be the year of the Flagpie according to someone on the Pies board.

It's a bit early for the April fools jokes yet don't you think? Then again everyday is April fools day at Victoria Park!

And everyday at princess park is like an episode of Masterchef.
No one knows what the **** Carlton are cooking

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

And everyday at princess park is like an episode of Masterchef.
No one knows what the **** Carlton are cooking

Set shot practice