The Law Whose land are you occupying?

[faible]

Oh, I see, you don't those things are oppressive

Hmm, that's kind of interesting in itself

You're doing that thing where you twist what's said, to make it something else.

So answer the question; what exactly is going to be changed?

Not some nebulous statement of "oh change the oppressive system of genocide".

People love to make grand statements, and criticise others for not getting on board, but when asked to provide anything concrete or specific, suddenly have nothing.

Your first response is to try to insult me, instead of providing examples of actual changes that could be made. That's pretty interesting don't you think?

 

[ferball]

You're doing that thing where you twist what's said, to make it something else.

So answer the question; what exactly is going to be changed?

Not some nebulous statement of "oh change the oppressive system of genocide".

People love to make grand statements, and criticise others for not getting on board, but when asked to provide anything concrete or specific, suddenly have nothing.

Your first response is to try to insult me, instead of providing examples of actual changes that could be made. That's pretty interesting don't you think?

How about legal fairness. How about no more over policing.

Adjusting schooling for indigenous kids so it engages them with western education instead of making them all boko haram about it.

Instead of trying to close remote communities promote the homelands movement where possible given there are decades of examples of the benefits it provides for indigenous people.

Go ask a bunch of indigenous people, especially women over 35. They'll give you plenty of real practical things that could be done to benefit their communities that would work. How often does that happen, and even when it does how often are those women's recommendation the priority?

Its ridiculous. People have been saying exactly this for decades and no one takes any notice. On the rare occasions it does happen the results are incredible.

 

[Chief]

True

Good, you agree.

The rest is just boomerwaffen stuff I've been reading in the Courier-Mail since I was a kid.

"They should count themselves lucky," and "Most of 'em aren't even real Aboriginals" are the main whinges.

There's a current of opinion running through it all that every Australian is lucky and free, and if they aren't it's because they don't want to be. If they speak up, they are just trying to make everyone else feel bad.

It's bollocks.

 

[faible]

How about legal fairness. How about no more over policing.

Adjusting schooling for indigenous kids so it engages them with western education instead of making them all boko haram about it.

Instead of trying to close remote communities promote the homelands movement where possible given there are decades of examples of the benefits it provides for indigenous people.

Go ask a bunch of indigenous people, especially women over 35. They'll give you plenty of real practical things that could be done to benefit their communities that would work. How often does that happen, and even when it does how often are those women's recommendation the priority?

Its ridiculous. People have been saying exactly this for decades and no one takes any notice. On the rare occasions it does happen the results are incredible.

See, specifics. That was exactly my point.

Shouting at people for not getting on-board with the grand vision and sweeping statements, whilst not being able to verbalise any sense of what should be changed, or done, is meaningless and achieves nothing.

If you can't verbalise some specific changes you want made, probably don't get all high and mighty attacking others when they ask for said details.

 

[Chief]

Shouting at people for not getting on-board with the grand vision and sweeping statements, whilst not being able to verbalise any sense of what should be changed, or done, is meaningless and achieves nothing.

Have you ever listened to any indigenous people about what the issues are in their area? That'd be a start.

Listened to people in law reform? That's another place to start.

 

[faible]

Have you ever listened to any indigenous people about what the issues are in their area? That'd be a start.

Listened to people in law reform? That's another place to start.

I was responding to Baltimore Jack's comment, then when he couldn't verbalise specifics and immediately played the man, we've ended up here.

 

[Corpuscles]

Have you ever listened to any indigenous people about what the issues are in their area? That'd be a start.

Listened to people in law reform? That's another place to start.

Presumably you have?

So what are the issues?
What is the required solution(s)?

 

[Chief]

I was responding to Baltimore Jack's comment, then when he couldn't verbalise specifics and immediately played the man, we've ended up here.

This is a bit of a debating trap. The claim is that nobody can point out a need for reform or change without having specifics at hand. Without having a full plan ready to go.

If he lists specifics then these can be rubbished as representing the entirety of all possible solutions instead of a starting point for a conversation.

"List specifics now!" is often a way to shut the opposing side down instead of exploring possibilities.

 

[faible]

This is a bit of a debating trap. The claim is that nobody can point out a need for reform or change without having specifics at hand. Without having a full plan ready to go.

If he lists specifics then these can be rubbished as representing the entirety of all possible solutions instead of a starting point for a conversation.

"List specifics now!" is often a way to shut the opposing side down instead of exploring possibilities.

Not at all, I was asking someone who was making a strong statement on the issue, what they thought could be done.

They then responded with nebulous statements, then followed it up with a personal aspersion.

Hard to have any form of conversation with someone like that isn't it?

 

[Chief]

Presumably you have?

So what are the issues?
What is the required solution(s)?

No - I'm not in those fields. Recently I've only talked to a few Aboriginal people and haven't peppered them with questions like "how do we fix you guys up?". They don't owe me an explanation or a plan in a casual conversation. They've talked a bit about politics in relation to their own fields (anthropology, history etc).

I've done a small portion of a law degree and was interested in the process of law reform so I did my own reading, but no I'm not an expert.

What you want to do is read the work of people who are in the know. Who do have experience. And the word from experienced people on the ground is usually: listen to the local leaders (being aware of local politics), look at law reform, look at resources and allocation.

Rejecting everything because a person on a forum doesn't have a specific plan to fix everything is just a way to shut down the conversation.

 

[Chief]

They then responded with nebulous statements

He gave some areas for improvement. Some things to look at.

How about legal fairness. How about no more over policing.

Adjusting schooling for indigenous kids so it engages them with western education instead of making them all boko haram about it.

Instead of trying to close remote communities promote the homelands movement where possible given there are decades of examples of the benefits it provides for indigenous people.

Go ask a bunch of indigenous people, especially women over 35. They'll give you plenty of real practical things that could be done to benefit their communities that would work. How often does that happen, and even when it does how often are those women's recommendation the priority?

Its ridiculous. People have been saying exactly this for decades and no one takes any notice. On the rare occasions it does happen the results are incredible.

You then rejected that as "nebulous". You don't want to expand on anything he has suggested. You want to shut it down.

I'm now interested in hearing about the homelands movement because I've never head of it. That expands the conversation.

 

[faible]

He gave some areas for improvement. Some things to look at.



You then rejected that as "nebulous". You don't want to expand on anything he has suggested. You want to shut it down.

I'm now interested in hearing about the homelands movement because I've never head of it. That expands the conversation.

You realise they're two different posters right?

 

[Chief]

You realise they're two different posters right?

Yes - I'm not being clear. My fault.

 

[Chief]

You realise they're two different posters right?

How about we start again - what do you think of ferball 's post, given you got nothing from Jack's?

 

[faible]

Yes - I'm not being clear. My fault.

How about we start again - what do you think of ferball 's post, given you got nothing from Jack's?

No issues with ferball who could actually articulate their thoughts on the topic. I'm always interested to read about actual concrete actions that can be taken, given that generally speaking, most people's ideas of what to do consists of applying a Western concept of success and transplanting it on to Aboriginal people, which doesn't really work when at least a portion of the people living in various communities don't see the value in that life.

An issue with Baltimore Jack who came out making a strong statement, then when asked for something more, made nebulous statements, then played the man.

 

[juss]

That isn't the case for everyone, neither is it the case that this sort of oppression etc has stopped.


Imagine if a bunch of aboriginal men drove around a campground full of white people scaring them, firing replica weapons then jumped out of the vehicle and kicked one of them to death ten years ago in Alice. Would they have been free for 8 or 9 years in some cases? If you think the answer is yes then look at what happened with Josh Warneke's death.

If this sh*t was all in the past no one indigenous people would care. (Obviously very few non indigenous people care enough to notice these days.)

There's abhorrent occurances every day all over the world, I could find you a dozen with a 10 minute google search. I dont deny they occur.

What I was referring to in the past was the actual specific events of AD. This is relation to this thread and the title of whos land am I occupying. What does that imply? Its as much my home/land as it is any other person born here.

 

[Ben The Donkey]

Good, you agree.

The rest is just boomerwaffen stuff I've been reading in the Courier-Mail since I was a kid.

"They should count themselves lucky," and "Most of 'em aren't even real Aboriginals" are the main whinges.

There's a current of opinion running through it all that every Australian is lucky and free, and if they aren't it's because they don't want to be. If they speak up, they are just trying to make everyone else feel bad.

It's bollocks.

Is that your word of the month now Chief? "Boomerwaffen"?
A slang term that associates older white people with the SS?

 

[Chief]

Is that your word of the month now Chief? "Boomerwaffen"?
A slang term that associates older white people with the SS?

Yes I love it!

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I was responding to Baltimore Jack's comment, then when he couldn't verbalise specifics and immediately played the man, we've ended up here.

No, not at all.

The concept was that simple with the examples I used, I just assumed you were purposely being thick or just taking the piss

Either way, I wasn't going to play

 

[faible]

No, not at all.

The concept was that simple with the examples I used, I just assumed you were purposely being thick or just taking the piss

Either way, I wasn't going to play

What examples?

Read ferball's post for examples of what can be changed. Yours are just nebulous buzz words.

"Change the Genocide!"

"Ok. What do we change?"

"The Genocide!"

"Right. But like, what do we actually change?"

"You know, The Genocide!"

"So who do we talk to about changing this Genocide?"

** crickets **

Contrast this with what ferball wrote;

"What can we change?"

"Adjust schooling for Indigenous kids to help them engage better with the content."

"Great, good idea, we can go to the education board and start looking at the curriculum."

 

[Ben The Donkey]

Yes I love it!

The question was somewhat rhetorical, but it's good that we're on the same page now.

Your forum rules need a bit of revising, but I'm sure that if, for example, I were to use the phrase towelhead from this point on, you won't be taking any action?

 

[ferball]

Have you ever listened to any indigenous people about what the issues are in their area? That'd be a start.

Listened to people in law reform? That's another place to start.

To be fair to owen he did respond well to my specific points.

Especially considering most people's responses to those sort of comments. I think that is what he wants to hear more of. And we do need to hear more of that stuff.

And if we as a nation address these things no one will care about a name or a bunch of people having a bbq. Right down the hill from me is a midden from a several thousand year old freshwater bbq area. Its a very old "Australian" tradition...

 

[ferball]

There's abhorrent occurances every day all over the world, I could find you a dozen with a 10 minute google search. I dont deny they occur.

What I was referring to in the past was the actual specific events of AD. This is relation to this thread and the title of whos land am I occupying. What does that imply? Its as much my home/land as it is any other person born here.

I have a friend who grew up in West Germany. Very much a fair person tho his old man was a genuine Nazi well in Hitler Youth, he was an anarchist in germany in the 80s. I was shocked the first time he told me that he grew up in an occupied country. "BY Who?" "The US." I'd always felt the US were their by West Germany's invitation still think there is some truth in that. But he was adamant and its his country so he'd know. I'm in no position to question that. He is an Australian now, btw, and kind of always was if you think about the best side of us as a nation.

You were born here and you feel like you belong here but there is a bunch of people here who would look at you as someone occupying their land.

Occupation - that's what overpolicing is. Its the visible presence of an external authority. And that someone is by definition criminal and in need of constant supervision on the orders of someone else in a state or federal capitol.

The idea that Nyul Nyul people are ruled by a bunch of strangers from Canberra or even Perth is ludicrous from their POV. It never happened before, then these pricks turned up and life has been generally shit since. Where is the legitimacy in that?

Yet there is a whole bunch of people in this country (most of us, 99%+) thinking "What's wrong with them, that's Australia ... its always been like that."

This is the conflict around January 26th essentially.

And the point is you might think its all in the past but for alot of indigenous people its all in the present. Its ongoing and hasn't stopped. As long as people don't give a **** about the obvious disparity in actual legal and justice outcomes in Australia (as one example) then other people are gonna point out how ****ed it is that everyone celebrates January 26th like everything is fine here when it isn't.

 

[Chief]

To be fair to owen he did respond well to my specific points.

Yes I'll cop the criticism there.

 

[juss]

I have a friend who grew up in West Germany. Very much a fair person tho his old man was a genuine Nazi well in Hitler Youth, he was an anarchist in germany in the 80s. I was shocked the first time he told me that he grew up in an occupied country. "BY Who?" "The US." I'd always felt the US were their by West Germany's invitation still think there is some truth in that. But he was adamant and its his country so he'd know. I'm in no position to question that. He is an Australian now, btw, and kind of always was if you think about the best side of us as a nation.

You were born here and you feel like you belong here but there is a bunch of people here who would look at you as someone occupying their land.

Occupation - that's what overpolicing is. Its the visible presence of an external authority. And that someone is by definition criminal and in need of constant supervision on the orders of someone else in a state or federal capitol.

The idea that Nyul Nyul people are ruled by a bunch of strangers from Canberra or even Perth is ludicrous from their POV. It never happened before, then these pricks turned up and life has been generally sh*t since. Where is the legitimacy in that?

Yet there is a whole bunch of people in this country (most of us, 99%+) thinking "What's wrong with them, that's Australia ... its always been like that."

This is the conflict around January 26th essentially.

And the point is you might think its all in the past but for alot of indigenous people its all in the present. Its ongoing and hasn't stopped. As long as people don't give a fu** about the obvious disparity in actual legal and justice outcomes in Australia (as one example) then other people are gonna point out how f’ed it is that everyone celebrates January 26th like everything is fine here when it isn't.

I agree with a lot of that.

But the bolded part isn't my offence to be sorry for. People born across the world today aren't responsible for the invasions and land takeovers that are littered through history. Its as much my country and land now as any Australian. I respect that our views may differ on that.