Why 4 points for a win?

[FootyJunkie]

It came originally from awarding 1 point for every quarter you won in the game . The original concept was lost and the 4 points per game remains today .

Would be interesting to bring it back, on top of the 4 points on offer... each game has 8 premiership points up for grabs.

A win gives you 5 points (a winning club will win atleast 1 quarter) with up to 3 possilble bonus points

Draws wouldn't sound too bad either...could even mean both teams go home with 4 points.

Also rewards good losers, could potentially steal 3 points in a "good" loss.

Also, a drawn qtr means no bonus pt for either team.

Imagine all the intrigue surrounding games with a "tight" ladder come Round 22...

light bulb...

 

[red+black]

Your solution is patently facile. Are you aware that behinds were not counted until the VFL was formed in 1897. I suspect not. Given that games were generally low-scoring, drawn quarters would have been numerous and your suggested solution a monstrous encumbrance.

Do you always talk like a dick?

Because the VFL used the 4 points system.

and because the AFL is simply the VFL with three extra teams, that is why it is used.

/close thread

So why did the VFL use the 4 points system? Have you ever done any research in your life? Ever tried to find the meaning behind something, anything? Some of us would like to know some of the finer details behind the game that is part of our psyche.

 

[FootyJunkie]

premiership pts - bonus pts (quarters won) - total pts

st.kilda 24 19 43
geelong 24 17 41
port adelaide 16 12 28
carlton 12 16 28
collingwood 12 16 28
sydney 12 13 25
western bulldogs 12 12 24
hawthorn 12 12 24
-------------------------------------------
brisbane 12 10 22
essendon 12 10 22
adelaide 12 9 21
west coast 8 12 20
fremantle 8 8 16
north melbourne 8 7 15
richmond 4 8 12
melbourne 4 7 11

Not much difference to the current ladder I must admit, but by Round 22... let's bookmark this thread

 

[Tendo Jones]

As for the SA percentage thing..., considering the meaning of 'per-cent' means per 100, I think they've got the translation mixed up somehow.

Actually they are both correct, just different interpretations. The AFL one, your percentage is how many points your team scores per 100 points that the opposition score. The SANFL is how many points your team scores per 100 points that either team score. Neither is incorrect. Personally I prefer the AFL system.

 

[Fire]

Cant be bothered to read all the thread, but the actual answer is its a legacy from way back in the beginning where points were awarded and deducted more broadly than they are to day.

It had to do with issues such as a game won through forefeture, as well as other various infractions which meant that odd numbers of points were theoretically possible; I don't know if they ever ended up showing up on a ladder from the era though.

 

[Matt_352]

There is literally no point whatsoever to having premiership points all you need is W L D & %.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If Nigel Tufnell was in charge of the AFL it would be 11 points for a win

 

[vaughany]

Definitely one of the idiosyncrasies of our great game.
I'm sure there is a footy history book out there someone that will explain the reasoning behind four points

 

[radiojake]

The same reason why you get 6 points for a goal.... .?

 

[Reality Check!]

The same reason why you get 6 points for a goal.... .?

A goal is worth 6 times more than a behind. It would change a lot of results if it was worth any less...a specific Melbourne v Essendon Grand Final comes to mind...

 

[Hawks1523]

Who was it that said after winning a final that they were happy to get the four points?

I'm pretty sure it was Franklin

 

[SBYM]

They should award 1 point to the winner of each quarter, split the drawn quarters etc.

Carlton would have like heaps more points than they do so far...

 

[Connoisseur]

Haven't read through this thread but I suspect that 4 points was chosen to set footy apart from other sports (mainly soccer) which used 2 points (it's 3 points now in most leagues around the world) for a win and 1 for a draw.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Dunno the history but (I'd surmise) big numbers are psychologically more appealing. As for the SA % calcs - that's just totally weird.

I don't see why.
They do it as your score as a percentage of total score.
Other leagues it is your score as a percentage of oppositions' score.

Both are equally sensible. If anything the SANFL system correlates with our normal concept of percentages being maxed out at 100.
It also reduces the possibility of inifinte (OK, pendants, undefined) percentage if a team plays a perfect defensive game in round one. Keeping a side to 0.0(0) in round one is unlikely these days, but probably happened a little in the very early days.


As for four points, no idea. It just is. I had guessed maybe it was to allow for points deductions worth less than a draw but have never heard of such a thing having existed.

 

[Rotayjay]

Now that all those historical factors like junior opposition and forfeiture are irrelevant, it should be changed to two points. No reason to persist with an illogical relic, even though I'm an advocate for tradition in our game. Nobody is attached to or sentimental about four points rather than two. Just change it, get it over with.

 

[Kavliaris69]

I think that 2 points is generous for a draw. If we continue with 4 for the win, the draw should be 1.

 

[living_in_syd]

I think its 4 points to represent 4 quarters won even though ita not divided that way? Like a battle groubd to be won, the 4 quarters is the territory won...?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Logically there must have been ways / plans to split the match result beyond simply a draw, or deduct small amounts of points. And then it just stuck.

 

[Running Dog]

There is literally no point whatsoever to having premiership points all you need is W L D & %.

I think there are good reasons for points. Wins/losses are absolute- you can only have one of either. However, presuming the validity of the general instinct that a draw has more merit than a loss, how would that be quantified, if not by points? If there were no points and only percentage separated teams you could have a team with more draws but a lower percentage. For example:
1. WWWW 100%
2. WWWW 95%
3. WWDL 90%
4. WWDD 85%
Teams 1 and 2 separated by percentage- no problem. However, if we accept that D > L, then only by points would Team 4's merit be recognised, and only if 3 and 4 were equal on points would percentage be necessary. You could have a system where ladder positions are determined at year's end by a mathematical equation, irrespective of the actual outcomes of matches, but I believe fans prefer that draws are recognised as having merit, since they are not an absolute outcome (i.e., loss).

 

[Matt_352]

I think there are good reasons for points. Wins/losses are absolute- you can only have one of either. However, presuming the validity of the general instinct that a draw has more merit than a loss, how would that be quantified, if not by points? If there were no points and only percentage separated teams you could have a team with more draws but a lower percentage. For example:
1. WWWW 100%
2. WWWW 95%
3. WWDL 90%
4. WWDD 85%
Teams 1 and 2 separated by percentage- no problem. However, if we accept that D > L, then only by points would Team 4's merit be recognised, and only if 3 and 4 were equal on points would percentage be necessary. You could have a system where ladder positions are determined at year's end by a mathematical equation, irrespective of the actual outcomes of matches, but I believe fans prefer that draws are recognised as having merit, since they are not an absolute outcome (i.e., loss).

You have team 3 & 4 wrong way around

 

[ioppolo]

Who cares how many points are awarded for wins/draws etc?

 

[HitThePostAgain]

Back in the 1980s I recall seeing (in a Sydney newspaper) a VFL Club Championship table based on performances in the three grades. Being in Sydney I was not exactly immersed in the scene so I had no in-depth knowledge. It was definitely the mid 80s, i.e. before the creation of the AFL. On this Club Championship table four points were awarded for a match won in the senior grade, then three points were awarded for a win in reserves and two points for a victory in the third grade.

The three accompanying grade tables (seniors, reserves, thirds) printed in the paper awarded the same number of points (i.e either 4, 3 or 2 respectively) per victory. Maybe this was just a Sydney newspaper misinterpretation but I clearly recall the points scheme as printed for the three grades.

Perhaps the VFL Club Championship is therefore the source of four points for a win in seniors, and for whatever reason four for a win/two for a draw has been extended to most other leagues, even for example your local Under 15s.

Notably the SANFL appears to allocate two points for a win (and one for a draw) whereas the WAFL seems to have awarded four points for a win (with two for a draw) even back as far as the early 1900s.

Happy to be shot down if this is wrong!

 

[Hobbes]

Because Victorians will tell you that they are twice as good as the SANFL, which only gives 2 points for a win and 1 point for a draw.

Same goes for percentage
SANFL is calculated as For/(For + Against) so average = 50% and approximate maximum = 67% (assuming For is double Against)
AFL is calculated as For/Against, so average = 100% (which is better than the SANFL maximum) and approximate maximum = 200% (assuming For is double Against)

There's no theoretical maximum for AFL percentages, although I guess a percentage over 200% is unlikely except very early in a season.

I think I wrote a mathematical proof once that the AFL percentage method and the SANFL percentage method will always deliver the teams in the same order, so it doesn't matter which one you use.

 

[LightTower4]

Back in the 1980s I recall seeing (in a Sydney newspaper) a VFL Club Championship table based on performances in the three grades. Being in Sydney I was not exactly immersed in the scene so I had no in-depth knowledge. It was definitely the mid 80s, i.e. before the creation of the AFL. On this Club Championship table four points were awarded for a match won in the senior grade, then three points were awarded for a win in reserves and two points for a victory in the third grade.

The three accompanying grade tables (seniors, reserves, thirds) printed in the paper awarded the same number of points (i.e either 4, 3 or 2 respectively) per victory. Maybe this was just a Sydney newspaper misinterpretation but I clearly recall the points scheme as printed for the three grades.

Perhaps the VFL Club Championship is therefore the source of four points for a win in seniors, and for whatever reason four for a win/two for a draw has been extended to most other leagues, even for example your local Under 15s.

Notably the SANFL appears to allocate two points for a win (and one for a draw) whereas the WAFL seems to have awarded four points for a win (with two for a draw) even back as far as the early 1900s.

Happy to be shot down if this is wrong!

That was the basis of winning the McLennand trophy which these days is awarded to the team that finishes on top after H&A games.
However, not really anything to do with getting 4 points for a win.

 

[Occidental]

Back in the 1980s I recall seeing (in a Sydney newspaper) a VFL Club Championship table based on performances in the three grades. Being in Sydney I was not exactly immersed in the scene so I had no in-depth knowledge. It was definitely the mid 80s, i.e. before the creation of the AFL. On this Club Championship table four points were awarded for a match won in the senior grade, then three points were awarded for a win in reserves and two points for a victory in the third grade.

The three accompanying grade tables (seniors, reserves, thirds) printed in the paper awarded the same number of points (i.e either 4, 3 or 2 respectively) per victory. Maybe this was just a Sydney newspaper misinterpretation but I clearly recall the points scheme as printed for the three grades.

Perhaps the VFL Club Championship is therefore the source of four points for a win in seniors, and for whatever reason four for a win/two for a draw has been extended to most other leagues, even for example your local Under 15s.

Notably the SANFL appears to allocate two points for a win (and one for a draw) whereas the WAFL seems to have awarded four points for a win (with two for a draw) even back as far as the early 1900s.

Happy to be shot down if this is wrong!

The VFL Club Championship ladder you are referring to was called the McClelland Trophy.
It was first awarded in 1951 and was named after the then VFL President. The VFL had 3 grades; seniors, reserves & under 19's.
Eight points for a seniors win, four for the reserves & two for the thirds. Add the totals & you get a ladder.
It was pretty much useless, just an interesting add on you would see in the footy record. It was just to see who was doing well in an all round sense.
As Pies supporters, we used to joke after yet another grand final loss in the 70's etc that 'at least we won the McClelland Trophy".
So it had no effect on anything, but was just an easy way to see how clubs went across the 3 grades.
Most don't know that it is actually still awarded! This is the name of the trophy you now get (since 1991) if you finish on top of the ladder at the end of the season.