Why do People presume that Carlton is 2-3 years ahead of Essendon?

[SirJimi05]

When did Fletcher start slowing down? I must have missed it. He must of as well because he has stated many times that he will pull the pin as soon as he starts to lose his pace.

Also, you forgot Hooker and Dempsey. Hooker showed quite a bit this season and had a few good scalps. Dempsey is all class and could become one of the better running backs in the comp. He also plays very tall and is a great spoiler.

Agree regarding Ryder but lets not forget that he spent two seasons as a skinny kid playing on the best forwards in the competiton on a weekly basis. He would dominate if he slipped into a Fletcher type role of taking the 3rd tall and being third man up.

Carlton's backline isn't as bad as people make out, it's actually solid, but moving forward i don't think it will come close to Hurley, Pears, Ryder, Hooker, Dempsey, Fletcher.

 

[DapperDon]

Bower is developing nicely and i think he will settle into CHB very nicely with a couple extra KG's this year, game against reiwoldt this year gave all blues supporters so much confidence in his ability not only to compete with the elite CHF's but to also create off the and hurt going forward.
.

Riewoldt round 12

15 kicks
10 marks
5 goals

This is what made you guys happy about Bower? What are his shit games like

 

[SirJimi05]

Riewoldt round 12

15 kicks
10 marks
5 goals

This is what made you guys happy about Bower? What are his shit games like

Riewoldt would have kicked 10 if Ratts didn't react by playing 2-3 on Roo after he dominated Bower.

 

[bomberstomake8]

I dont think its a given that Essendons backs are much much better than ours,

Sure Fletcher is great but is slowing down and gets exposed on the No.1 Forward. Pears very good (is actually a ate of mine from wa) and i follow him very closely, will be a great player and when he was drafted he was considered maybe too small for KPP and too Big for HBF/Running type player and his position was unknown but his clever thinking raw strength and ability to run off has put him into the top bracket of young KPP, he was amazing against us round 13 last year really enjoyed watching him. Hurley is an out and out gun and will be a star for years i think he may settle at FB better than CHB but the Hurley/Pears combo will be solid for a while. Ryder is the unknown im my opinion he excelled in the Ruck but people forget before the he moved there he wasnt setting the world on fire in the back or forward line, better back up ruckman/pinch hitting forward IMO.

Looking at our backline people underate it alot i reckon, Jamison is solid and isnt beaten too often but because he wasnt taken top 10 like Ryder or Hurley he doesnt get noticed as much, he will be our FB for years to come and i have full confidence everytime i see him going towards the likes of Brown and Franklin. Thornton is one of the best 3rd Talls in the comp reads the play beautifully and is a strong mark with good vision and desicion aking his forte. Bower is developing nicely and i think he will settle into CHB very nicely with a couple extra KG's this year, game against reiwoldt this year gave all blues supporters so much confidence in his ability not only to compete with the elite CHF's but to also create off the and hurt going forward.

On the surface you would look at it and say, Hurley/Ryder/Pears two top 10 picks and a second rounder vs Jamison/Thornton/Bower which is a second rounder plus a rookie and a late draft selection, Essendons youth KPP backs look far more solid and have potential beyon Carltons but i dont think it is a no contest its close the Bombers KP backline is going to be better but im confident ours will continue to improve throwing in Austin and potentially Henderson we are getting some depth.

I dont know why people include ryder when talking about essendons backline he didnt play there all season and imo will never play there again.

Our backline KPP consist of Hurley/Pears/Fletcher with Hooker/Daniher as backups

I agree that Carltons backline is reasonably solid i rate jamison highly. Thornton i think you are overrating a fair bit saying he is one of the best third talls in the comp is a bit extreme, thats putting him in company with the tom harley's/nick maxwell/dustin fletcher. and I rate bower too but i think he is ideally better suited as being that third tall rather then being asked to be a KPP. IMO you need one more strong bodied KPP to help out jamison then have bower as the third tall. Hopefully for you guys maguire or henderson fills that role.

So right now for me i would have

Pears=Jamison (possibly jamison ahead here, imo pears had a better year this year but jamison has shown more over a longer period of time
Hurley=Bower (this is imo a perception of how both players perform currently, hurley hasnt really been beaten yet although he hasnt played a lot of games whereas bower performs admirably given the size he gives away when playing KP)
Fletcher>Thornton - obvious fletcher is a greater third tall then thornton.


Anyways as an overall judgement i would say there isnt a whole lot seperating the two at the momment i would have the bombers just in front however i do think our backline has a lot more potential then yours at the momment

 

[lemons123]

essendons backs look i better shape than carltons, but you cant honestly say the midfield is anything to rant about.
Although watson is good, he is NOT elite.
And Prismall isnt going to be a "superstar" simply because he came from a side full of superstars.

 

[Kramer1]

Andrew is replaceable, while we don't have anyone who can match his speed (not many if any can) his position is easily covered by many players on our list.

Can't agree here. I would think he is the type of player who is very difficult to replace.

Generates momentum in a team, can change the course of a game in three or four play plays, uses the ball well and generally a neat finisher. Using round 13 as an example (which I have tried to eratse from the memory banks) I thought he had an ordinary day, but still bobbed up with three goals and did some near things.

As gets pointed out just a little bit you guys have had the wood on us for five games, but in fairness we gave up match winning positions in 2 or 3 of those games. It has generally been a Lloyd or Lucas or Lovett that has changed the momentum of those games...I can't see who will be doing that for you going forward, bot just against us, but all opposition.

 

[inthesong]

Fletcher slowing down is a simple theory, would you say that Fletcher 98-06 was better than 07-09? i would and if you agree that he was once better that would mean he is effectively ''slowing down'' i know it may seem cynical and a bit pedantic but its theoretically correct. Also take into account he is still a very good player and i called him great in my orignial post so dont get too bent out of shape. I added Ryder because he has played at CHB more than any other player in your current lineup so why would you not include him, he is your second most experienced backmen and was drafted as a KP back so i included him in the list because of that reason.

I didnt add Dempsey because he is not a KP he is a running HBF otherwise i would have included players such as Scotland/Russell or even Walker.

My conclusion is that Our Forwards would not trouble your backs too much and your forwards would struggle to beat our backs but our Midfield is far superior to your midfield and i think we may be slightly ahead in my developement but only by maybe 1 year or 2 at the most but our developement plan seems to be different to yours in the fact that we have a strong midfield based game plan and yours is slightly more KP favoured and KP are traditionally longer term prospects.

 

[Godzke]

As gets pointed out just a little bit you guys have had the wood on us for five games, but in fairness we gave up match winning positions in 2 or 3 of those games. It has generally been a Lloyd or Lucas or Lovett that has changed the momentum of those games...I can't see who will be doing that for you going forward, bot just against us, but all opposition.

Remember last year? 2008? You lost both games and Fevola kicked 8 goals in the first meet and 7 in the second. This year he kicked 4 in the first close game and went missing in the second ... and his absence was indicative of the final margin.

Don't lecture us on what Lloyd, Lovett and Lucas did because you're clearly neglecting your own loss.

 

[GuzzLG]

Monfries will make carlton his bitch yet again in 2010.

 

[Blues_Man]

Essendons backline has a few promising kids ,,but their best defender in Fletcher has one ..possibly two years tops left in him .

Backlines would be equal ...forward lines would be equal ..but in the midfield their is a huge gulf ...with Carlton's being far superior at this stage.

 

[hurls22]

Essendons backline has a few promising kids ,,but their best defender in Fletcher has one ..possibly two years tops left in him .

Backlines would be equal ...forward lines would be equal ..but in the midfield their is a huge gulf ...with Carlton's being far superior at this stage.

Midfield contains ruckman. Least you forget what Hille did to Carlton in 08.

 

[Blues_Man]

Monfries will make carlton his bitch yet again in 2010.

That depends on whether the umpires wise up to his diving tactics ..they wised up to Lloyd after a few years ..so it is possible his acting and diving will go unrewarded ...expect him to struggle to remain in the side if this happens.

 

[lemons123]

Essendons backline has a few promising kids ,,but their best defender in Fletcher has one ..possibly two years tops left in him .

Backlines would be equal ...forward lines would be equal ..but in the midfield their is a huge gulf ...with Carlton's being far superior at this stage.

Exactly.

I would personally take essendon's backline over carlton's, but the blue's midfield is ridiculously better and is exactly why people see carlton as being ahead of essendon.

 

[Blues_Man]

Midfield contains ruckman. Least you forget what Hille did to Carlton in 08.

If you didn't notice we are now entering 2010 ...Hille coming back from a knee reco is an unknown ...as is Warnock ..but Kruezer and hampson with another preseason under their belts will more than hold their own.

 

[bomberstomake8]

Exactly.

I would personally take essendon's backline over carlton's, but the blue's midfield is ridiculously better and is exactly why people see carlton as being ahead of essendon.

essendons backline- currently just a bit ahead of carltons
essendons forward line- currently ahead of carltons
essendons midfield- sunstantially below carltons

saying forward lines are equal is a bit one eyed imo.
on one side you have who fisher, setanta, betts, garlett, robinson? could be forgetting a couple, maybe add waite in there although i would say he would stay in defence

one the other you have williams neagle, gumbelton monfries davey riemers, hurley (if you guys add waite theoretically hurley can be added too) and the resting ruckmen hille/ryder. Personally i would have our forward line every day of the week.

as i said backline essendons is a bit ahead of and midfeild wise carlton is well ahead. Personally i would say the sides are pretty even currently and will continue to be for some time yet

 

[Godzke]

I love it how Carlton fans hype up their "unknown" backlines yet criticise our young forwards and midfields as being "unknowns". Typical hypocrisy from a club lower than the toilet paper I wipe my arse with. Will enjoy handing your arses to you for a 6th consecutive time in round 3.

 

[lemons123]

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<b>saying forward lines are equal is a bit one eyed imo.</b>
on one side you have who fisher, setanta, betts, garlett, robinson? could be forgetting a couple, maybe add waite in there although i would say he would stay in defence

one the other you have williams neagle, <b> gumbelton </b> monfries davey riemers, hurley (if you guys add waite theoretically hurley can be added too) and the resting ruckmen hille/ryder. Personally i would have our forward line every day of the week.

as i said backline essendons is a bit ahead of and midfeild wise carlton is well ahead. Personally i would say the sides are pretty even currently and will continue to be for some time yet

Because I am clearly one eyed towards Carlton mate. I personally think they should play kruezer and henderson as their two talls up front.

and mentioning neagle and gumbleton as a forward line that is better is ridiculous. They make a great combination watching from the stands each game, the closest they get to the forward line is sitting front row.

 

[Kong]

Because I am clearly one eyed towards Carlton mate. I personally think they should play kruezer and henderson as their two talls up front.

and mentioning neagle and gumbleton as a forward line that is better is ridiculous. They make a great combination watching from the stands each game, the closest they get to the forward line is sitting front row.

Neagle played 12 games this year.

Still not good enough, but he's getting there. As with Gumbleton, it's not a matter of ability. Surely at least one - and ideally both - will have some more luck this year and be able to run out the entire season without being injured.

 

[The Panther]

will have some more luck this year and be able to run out the entire season without being injured.

You need more than luck to be a quality AFL player. Neagle doesn't have the conditioning to be an AFL Forward of note, he is also doesn't have many strings to his bow.

 

[lemons123]

Neagle played 12 games this year.

Still not good enough, but he's getting there. As with Gumbleton, it's not a matter of ability. Surely at least one - and ideally both - will have some more luck this year and be able to run out the entire season without being injured.

Yes but Gumbleton isn't going to step right in after 1 game of afl to date and start tearing apart backlines. IF HE STAYS FIT he is still a few years away, and seeing as how the topic is why carlton is 2-3 years ahead, theres one reason.

And with Neagle, it is a matter of ability.

 

[Kong]

You need more than luck to be a quality AFL player. Neagle doesn't have the conditioning to be an AFL Forward of note, he is also doesn't have many strings to his bow.

To be honest, I know your history on BigFooty so I'm not even going to dignify you with a response.

 

[Kong]

Yes but Gumbleton isn't going to step right in after 1 game of afl to date and start tearing apart backlines. IF HE STAYS FIT he is still a few years away, and seeing as how the topic is why carlton is 2-3 years ahead, theres one reason.

It's 4, but you're right; odds are he is still a few years away from dominating. That's not to say he can't play 15-20 games providing a leading target for structure; that's what we need the most. Monfries was effectively our CHF this year. Too many times we found ourselves turning the ball over after blitzing the opposition through the middle with our run, simply because Lloyd was unable to beat his opponent and Neagle was too unfit to keep going for an entire game.

There is always the chance that he could simply have an unexpected breakout season, much like Pears this year, who played off little-to-no pre-season.

And with Neagle, it is a matter of ability.

Well then I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree.

I understand that supporters always rate their own players higher than most, however I can say with complete honesty that I believe Neagle has more than enough ability to be at the very least a solid FF. He rarely - if ever - drops a mark, he beats most defenders on the lead, he can outbody even the likes of Glass and Scarlett, and is one of the most reliable shots for goal in our side; especially from around the 50 meter mark.

Even the harshest of his critics (and by this I mean people in the know, not trolls on BigFooty) concede the ability is there; his problem is a possible attitude problem and an inability to complete an entire pre-season to date.

If he can reach a point of being able to actually run out even 90% of games, week after week, he'll surprise a lot of people. I hate the phrase, but bookmark it if you wish.

 

[Smyth94]

2-3 years at least, probably more like 5 years. Essendon have no good youngsters while Carlton have a few good prospects as much as I hate to say it. IMO Essendon have probably the least potential for improvement in their list of all the clubs that finished in the bottom 8 this season. Not a great spot to be in considering a) they have spent several years in the bottom 8 and done nothing and b) with the Gold Coast coming things will be made even more difficult. Essendon supporters should be disappointed seeing their club in such a pitiful position after being a powerhouse, if not the powerhouse club of the 80's and 90's. Both on and particularly off the field Essendon have fallen well behind the leaders imo.

Lol, how clueless can you get? Everyword of this post is just incorrect.

Not exactly the youngest group of players. Why should they improve?

Just because they're not 18 year olds doesn't mean they can't improve - Prismall for example hasn't even played 50 games, Winderlich has been in the system for 7 years and yet has only played 70 odd games.

Yes but Gumbleton isn't going to step right in after 1 game of afl to date and start tearing apart backlines. IF HE STAYS FIT he is still a few years away, and seeing as how the topic is why carlton is 2-3 years ahead, theres one reason.

And with Neagle, it is a matter of ability.

If we're talking athletic ability then yes, footballing - definitely no.

 

[blues4flag]

I love it how Carlton fans hype up their "unknown" backlines yet criticise our young forwards and midfields as being "unknowns". Typical hypocrisy from a club lower than the toilet paper I wipe my arse with. Will enjoy handing your arses to you for a 6th consecutive time in round 3.

Unknowns? Bower was 2nd in our B&F after 12 rounds...ahead of players like Fevola, Murphy and Gibbs, the first two unequivocally better than any player on the Essendon's list...Watson maybe equal with Murphy.

Unfortunately he injured his knee the next week against the Bombers and basically played a lone hand (with Thornton) in defence for the remainder of the season with a bung knee (Waite and Jamison both injured).

Waite is proven enough and while some outside might overrate him, his form prior to injury had him being discussed as the potential AA CHB. Jamison has performed well in defence for two seasons.

With Waite, Bower, Thornton, Jamison and Austin as our talls in defence (Henderson also capable of playing there) I'm not at all worried about our KPD stocks.

With Kreuzer, Henderson and Setanta our tall options alongside Betts, Yarran, Garlett, Robinson and Walker as small/mid options, we'll manage up forward.

Some might laugh but watch out for Hampson in a year or two. The man is faster on the lead than Fev yet is a 2 metre behemoth. Drops more than he should but he'll get a lot more delivery in 2010 and could be a real x factor for us. Dare I say, might prove to be our Tippett...

 

[Smyth94]

My conclusion is that Our Forwards would not trouble your backs too much and your forwards would struggle to beat our backs but our Midfield is far superior to your midfield and i think we may be slightly ahead in my developement but only by maybe 1 year or 2 at the most but our developement plan seems to be different to yours in the fact that we have a strong midfield based game plan and yours is slightly more KP favoured and KP are traditionally longer term prospects.

I would back one of Hurley, Ryder, Williams, Hille or Neagle to give your backline PLENTY of problems.