Why do People presume that Carlton is 2-3 years ahead of Essendon?

[lemons123]

If we're talking athletic ability then yes, footballing - definitely no.

Mmm well maybe hell prove me wrong if we see him on the park more often.
But do you honestly think hell get over these injuries and be right to string a couple of seasons together? Its almost like a Koschitzke case in that he couldnt get on the park in his early years, which set him back big time, and I think we can all agree hes not much chop..

 

[bomberstomake8]

Because I am clearly one eyed towards Carlton mate. I personally think they should play kruezer and henderson as their two talls up front.

and mentioning neagle and gumbleton as a forward line that is better is ridiculous. They make a great combination watching from the stands each game, the closest they get to the forward line is sitting front row.

So your saying kruezer and henderson are more proven forwards then neagle and gumbleton? I disagree. I selected a range of forwards you picked out two. What about mark Williams and hurley or hille/Ryder resting forward. What you just did is similar to me saying essendon have a better misfield because we have Watson and Stanton compared to Carlton who have simpson and bentick

 

[Smyth94]

Unknowns? Bower was 2nd in our B&F after 12 rounds...ahead of players like Fevola, Murphy and Gibbs, the first two unequivocally better than any player on the Essendon's list...Watson maybe equal with Murphy.

Well you don't have Fev anymore

What does it matter, yeah you've got Judd and a few #1 picks, thats great - still isn't going to stop you from being our bitches.

 

[Smyth94]

Mmm well maybe hell prove me wrong if we see him on the park more often.
But do you honestly think hell get over these injuries and be right to string a couple of seasons together? Its almost like a Koschitzke case in that he couldnt get on the park in his early years, which set him back big time, and I think we can all agree hes not much chop..

What the? Koschitzke is a quality forward - he's been dogged by injury and if Neagle can be like Kozzie then I'll be wrapped.

 

[lemons123]

So your saying kruezer and henderson are more proven forwards then neagle and gumbleton? I disagree. I selected a range of forwards you picked out two. What about mark Williams and hurley or hille/Ryder resting forward. What you just did is similar to me saying essendon have a better misfield because we have Watson and Stanton compared to Carlton who have simpson and bentick

If you look back at my post I said i rate their forward lines equally. Make sense?

 

[blues4flag]

Well you don't have Fev anymore

What does it matter, yeah you've got Judd and a few #1 picks, thats great - still isn't going to stop you from being our bitches.

Reading this thread it seems that Essendon supporters rate the success of a season on whether or not they've beaten the Blues.

We'll concern ourselves with finishing higher on the ladder on our way to 17, you just continue to make sure you get up for your two finals every year.

 

[Godzke]

Unknowns? Bower was 2nd in our B&F after 12 rounds...ahead of players like Fevola, Murphy and Gibbs, the first two unequivocally better than any player on the Essendon's list...Watson maybe equal with Murphy.

Unfortunately he injured his knee the next week against the Bombers and basically played a lone hand (with Thornton) in defence for the remainder of the season with a bung knee (Waite and Jamison both injured).

Waite is proven enough and while some outside might overrate him, his form prior to injury had him being discussed as the potential AA CHB. Jamison has performed well in defence for two seasons.

With Waite, Bower, Thornton, Jamison and Austin as our talls in defence (Henderson also capable of playing there) I'm not at all worried about our KPD stocks.

With Kreuzer, Henderson and Setanta our tall options alongside Betts, Yarran, Garlett, Robinson and Walker as small/mid options, we'll manage up forward.

Some might laugh but watch out for Hampson in a year or two. The man is faster on the lead than Fev yet is a 2 metre behemoth. Drops more than he should but he'll get a lot more delivery in 2010 and could be a real x factor for us. Dare I say, might prove to be our Tippett...

If you didn't notice we are now entering 2010 ...Hille coming back from a knee reco is an unknown ...as is Warnock ..but Kruezer and hampson with another preseason under their belts will more than hold their own.

And not the only example I can find. Bower may not be the name mentioned but it doesn't change the fact you look up and down your own list, pick out what you like and hype them up and then discard other club's "unknowns" at the same time. So which is it? Are we hyping up potential or are we sticking with proven talent? Can't have the best of both worlds.

 

[jonoman89]

essendons backline- currently just a bit ahead of carltons

Nope. We conceded less points than you last season, and the year before. And we also maintained a much higher % and managed to win 3 more games. Carlton's backline safely better currently.

Just because Pears and Hurley look lively prospects doesn't mean their current output is more than other backlines.

essendons forward line- currently ahead of carltons

Debatable. Gumbleton and Neagle have proven nothing more than Henderson and Kreuzer, in fact they'shown less considering how solid Kreuzer is. Williams is the only player i see a class above the others in both our forward lines.

Who knows, Waite might be quite effective up there.

essendons midfield- sunstantially below carltons

Correct. But i know many nuffies think that you beating us 5 times in a row automatically makes your midfield better.

Going by that logic, our midfield is obviously better than the Bulldogs who we have slaughtered every time since 2007.

 

[blues4flag]

And not the only example I can find. Bower may not be the name mentioned but it doesn't change the fact you look up and down your own list, pick out what you like and hype them up and then discard other club's "unknowns" at the same time. So which is it? Are we hyping up potential or are we sticking with proven talent? Can't have the best of both worlds.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that Warnock was part of Carlton's backline.

 

[Godzke]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that Warnock was part of Carlton's backline.

Don't bother going off on a tangent... you guys are hyping up your own while discarding other potential talent. The evidence is there.

 

[jonoman89]

Riewoldt round 12

15 kicks
10 marks
5 goals

This is what made you guys happy about Bower? What are his shit games like

Anyone can point out a game where a player gets beaten.

Bower has restricted Franklin to two goals on the last two occasions and run off him with around 25 posessions.

 

[rainman06]

Nope. We conceded less points than you last season, and the year before. And we also maintained a much higher % and managed to win 3 more games. Carlton's backline safely better currently.

Just because Pears and Hurley look lively prospects doesn't mean their current output is more than other backlines.

Surely you know that backlines are not ranked according to the Points Against column. There are so many other factors that contribute to that statistic....it is an absolute waste of time even discussing it.

Debatable. Gumbleton and Neagle have proven nothing more than Henderson and Kreuzer, in fact they'shown less considering how solid Kreuzer is. Williams is the only player i see a class above the others in both our forward lines.

Who knows, Waite might be quite effective up there.

The Bulldogs have shown you do not need to rely on big forwards. When you factor in Monfries, Winderlich, Reimers, Davey, Ryder/Hille.....we have you covered.

Correct. But i know many nuffies think that you beating us 5 times in a row automatically makes your midfield better.

Going by that logic, our midfield is obviously better than the Bulldogs who we have slaughtered every time since 2007.

And I know plenty of nuffies who think that despite the fact we have beaten you 5 times in a row, your list is comfortably better than ours and you have us covered in all parts of the ground. In fact I think im replying to one right now.

Anyone can point out a game where a player gets beaten.

Bower has restricted Franklin to two goals on the last two occasions and run off him with around 25 posessions.

That game was used earlier as an example of how good Bower is and how solid he is going to be in the future. Lol.

 

[jonoman89]

Surely you know that backlines are not ranked according to the Points Against column. There are so many other factors that contribute to that statistic....it is an absolute waste of time even discussing it.

Lol. Our defence pantses yours in every single statistic. Sorry, but you lose.

Of course it's not just PA, lots of other stats measure it as well. All of which we beat you in.

The Bulldogs have shown you do not need to rely on big forwards. When you factor in Monfries, Winderlich, Reimers, Davey, Ryder/Hille.....we have you covered.

They've shown that a small forward line will only get you so far. Winders plays on the wing. Davey is decidedly average. Betts is a much better player than any forwards you've listed there (Ryder and Hille are hardly forwards)

Henderson, Kreuzer, and possibly Black beats your tall forwards quite easily.

And I know plenty of nuffies who think that despite the fact we have beaten you 5 times in a row, your list is comfortably better than ours and you have us covered in all parts of the ground. In fact I think im replying to one right now.

So, despite every single indicator suggesting that we are ahead of you, people who think that are nuffies?

That game was used earlier as an example of how good Bower is and how solid he is going to be in the future. Lol.

Houston, we have a problem. When he gets the ball it's like having another midfielder rebounding out of the 50. Not tank enough to out muscle monster forwards yet, kills them on the rebound however.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Nope. We conceded less points than you last season, and the year before. And we also maintained a much higher % and managed to win 3 more games. Carlton's backline safely better currently.

Points conceded, That old chestnut...

Don't be so naive, it is one of the worst indicators of defensive capabilities. It doesn't take into account so many variables: goals scored from midfielders, goals per inside 50, midfield defensive pressure, gameplan.

 

[blues4flag]

Don't bother going off on a tangent... you guys are hyping up your own while discarding other potential talent. The evidence is there.

Funny...I'd argue it's the Essendon supporters doing the exact same thing. Not that I disagree with you but it's something that all supporters are guilty off. I posted as much a few days ago but since you've seen more of your own kids most supporters are far more inclined to rate their own than the opposition.

All I did was respond to your post saying that we're hyping up our 'unknown' backline. Might be unknown to you but as I clearly pointed out, at the very least Waite, Bower, Jamison and Thornton have proven their worth. Austin is an unknown though I haven't seen his name mentioned much here.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Lol. Our defence pantses yours in every single statistic. Sorry, but you lose.

Of course it's not just PA, lots of other stats measure it as well. All of which we beat you in.

Prove it.

 

[hurls22]

Lol. Our defence pantses yours in every single statistic. Sorry, but you lose.

Of course it's not just PA, lots of other stats measure it as well. All of which we beat you in.



They've shown that a small forward line will only get you so far. Winders plays on the wing. Davey is decidedly average. Betts is a much better player than any forwards you've listed there (Ryder and Hille are hardly forwards)

Henderson, Kreuzer, and possibly Black beats your tall forwards quite easily.



So, despite every single indicator suggesting that we are ahead of you, people who think that are nuffies?



Houston, we have a problem. When he gets the ball it's like having another midfielder rebounding out of the 50. Not tank enough to out muscle monster forwards yet, kills them on the rebound however.

Possibly Black. Fkg gold, claiming a bloke that isn't even drafted!

 

[Kong]

Lol. Our defence pantses yours in every single statistic. Sorry, but you lose.

Who's a better Carlton defender than Pears and Fletcher?

I could say Hurley, but I'll leave it at those two.

Henderson, Kreuzer, and possibly Black beats your tall forwards quite easily.

Any ounce of credibility to your argument was shot with that comment. You're saying a developing CHB, ruckman and a yet-to-be drafted tall are better than Neagle and Williams?

Not to mention, again, Hurley.

Debatable. Gumbleton and Neagle have proven nothing more than Henderson and Kreuzer, in fact they'shown less considering how solid Kreuzer is. Williams is the only player i see a class above the others in both our forward lines.

That's bloody laughable.

Henderson has played nearly all of his game time down back, while Kreuzer has played Ruck. The most Kreuzer has done down forward is kick 3 goals against Port Adealide. Neagle equalled that feat four times this year, and no less against Brisbane, Geelong (in a game we lost by 60 points) and St Kilda.

 

[Godzke]

Funny...I'd argue it's the Essendon supporters doing the exact same thing. Not that I disagree with you but it's something that all supporters are guilty off. I posted as much a few days ago but since you've seen more of your own kids most supporters are far more inclined to rate their own than the opposition.

All I did was respond to your post saying that we're hyping up our 'unknown' backline. Might be unknown to you but as I clearly pointed out, at the very least Waite, Bower, Jamison and Thornton have proven their worth. Austin is an unknown though I haven't seen his name mentioned much here.

I think it's fair to say some of our supporters have. Only difference is that everyone has seen what Pears and Hurley are capable of. Granted Hurley only played a handful of games, but between dominating Tredrea and Riewoldt and dominating up forward against Hawthorn (and St Kilda, in the first half before fletch's injury forced him down back) I reckon that's enough to say he could very well be the next big thing.

Next year it will hopefully be Gumbleton and Neagle... although our hopes are fading for the latter.

 

[Colin D'Cops]

I love it how Carlton fans hype up their "unknown" backlines yet criticise our young forwards and midfields as being "unknowns". Typical hypocrisy from a club lower than the toilet paper I wipe my arse with. Will enjoy handing your arses to you for a 6th consecutive time in round 3.

Amen.

 

[mediumsizered]

Henderson has played nearly all of his game time down back, while Kreuzer has played Ruck. The most Kreuzer has done down forward is kick 3 goals against Port Adealide. Neagle equalled that feat four times this year, and no less against Brisbane, Geelong (in a game we lost by 60 points) and St Kilda.

Henderson unfortunately was kept out of the Lions' forward line by a couple of blokes by the name of Brown & Bradshaw. You might have heard of them. He was recruited as a forward & that is where he will play his football next season. You would probably see the similarities with Neagle being held back by the presence of Lucas & Lloyd.

As for Kreuzer, he also kicked 3 goals against the Bulldogs, whilst playing in the ruck & on 5 occasions has kicked 2 goals, also while playing in the ruck. Could be pretty handy if he had a full game in the forward line. His 3 goals against Port of course coming in one quarter (the last), on a filthy Adelaide night & was a match-winning performance.

 

[hurls22]

Love to seem them against us without Judd and Fev. Will be pure gold.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

As for Kreuzer, he also kicked 3 goals against the Bulldogs, whilst playing in the ruck & on 5 occasions has kicked 2 goals, also while playing in the ruck. Could be pretty handy if he had a full game in the forward line. His 3 goals against Port of course coming in one quarter (the last), on a filthy Adelaide night & was a match-winning performance.

IMO Kreuzer seems like too good a ruckman to waste in the forward line. Plus he seems to have more impact when pinch hitting as opposed to spending a large portion of time up there.

 

[mediumsizered]

IMO Kreuzer seems like too good a ruckman to waste in the forward line. Plus he seems to have more impact when pinch hitting as opposed to spending a large portion of time up there.

I don't see him playing a lot of time in the forward line, his work around the ground is too important. He virtually gives us an extra midfielder. As you say his value up forward would be when pinch hitting, although there may well be the occasional game when he plays mostly at FF & with his smarts could kick 4-5 goals in a match.

 

[Jamie007]

The bombers making the 8 in 2009 was a joke and wouldn't have happened in most years of football.... They won 10 games and had a draw which is not even half.. They lost more than they won.. It has usually taken between 11-13 games for any team to even make the 8.. 2009 was an exception... How the AFL can reward a team with finals who gets beaten more than they win shows its a joke.. Thats why Carlton are ahead.. We won more games than we lost...