Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[10571z]

My point is mutilating your child's genitals is sick, evil, twisted.

Regardless of gender.

Yet here you are, arguing against that.

Australian values, you say. Go wave ya flag.

ah yes that’s what I was arguing. Good one!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

My point is mutilating your child's genitals is sick, evil, twisted.

Regardless of gender.

Yet here you are, arguing against that.

Australian values, you say. Go wave ya flag.

Here, read this...

https://philpapers.org/archive/EARFGM.pdf

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Here, read this...

https://philpapers.org/archive/EARFGM.pdf

Targeted ads, man. Delete your cookies.

Australian values!

 

[Number37]

A vast majority of atheists do not want to ban religion. I don't know anyone who does want to ban it - as I said, your fears are unfounded.

I don't have any fears about religion being banned.
The banning of religion will never happen because the number of true atheists is IMO very very very low.

I don't care if they're judgemental.

Yes you do care.
You keep bringing up how judgemental muslims are to women and gay people.

I wouldn't say they're stupid, just delusional in that area. Many are unable to move past childhood indoctrination and look at their theism objectively.

I know that atheists like to think they are just being objective but their objectivity is no different to anyone else's objectivity. Like most, 99.999% of their objectivity is just confirmation bias.

 

[Seeds]

I don't have any fears about religion being banned.
The banning of religion will never happen because the number of true atheists is IMO very very very low.




Yes you do care.
You keep bringing up how judgemental muslims are to women and gay people.


I know that atheists like to think they are just being objective but their objectivity is no different to anyone else's objectivity. Like most, 99.999% of their objectivity is just confirmation bias.

Athiests objecitvity is based on empirical evidence. Athiests views can change as new evidence comes to light .

Relgious peoples views are pre concieved and are unchangeable.

Thats the difference. Its an enormous difference.

 

[Number37]

Athiests objecitvity is based on empirical evidence. Athiests views can change as new evidence comes to light .

Relgious peoples views are pre concieved and are unchangeable.

Thats the difference. Its an enormous difference.

I wasn't talking about atheists v religious people.

I was talking about EVERYONE.
Atheists are not special in regard to confirmation bias masquerading as objectivity.
It is human nature.
Got F all to do with whether a person is religious or not.

 

[evolved2]

I don't have any fears about religion being banned.
The banning of religion will never happen because the number of true atheists is IMO very very very low.

What is a true atheist? I haven't seen that term before.

Yes you do care.
You keep bringing up how judgemental muslims are to women and gay people.

I care when votes and policy are made because of that. I care when it affects people adversely. A religious person judging me or thinking I'm going to Hell for sins and unbelief doesn't bother me because it has no impact on my reality.

I know that atheists like to think they are just being objective but their objectivity is no different to anyone else's objectivity. Like most, 99.999% of their objectivity is just confirmation bias.

There's no objective evidence for any of the religious deities. Do you agree with that?

My atheism is a position I can back through science and logic. A Christian or Muslim can't do the same.

I can use faith or illogical beliefs to form positions on other topics and people, but that can't be said of my atheism.

When objective evidence is produced for the one true god (or gods), I'll accept that god as being real.

 

[evolved2]

None of which infers that patriarchs are aholes, which confirms that no one should be using the term as a pejorative.

Just as no one should be using the term woke as a pejorative.

It's in bad faith

Either or, the similarity it is that neither pizza or a burqa are not a cultural or societal threat. So what's the worry?

Yeah I get it's an oppressive symbol for muslim women, but that's none of our business, if it is used as an oppressive tool against Australian women or against Australian society, then we have a problem, until then we shouldn't be using it in bad faith to criticize islam.

With due respect, I get the impression that 10571z and yourself are using the 'burqa is oppressive' in bad faith to criticize islam.

If islam starts effecting me or our society directly then I'll jump on the fear bandwagon.

Until then, as much as I dislike islam as a religion, I will acknowledge anyone's right to practice this faith so long as that does not effect our society.

I haven't proposed banning Islam or the burqa.

If I didn't share an opinion on topics that haven't affected me thus far, I wouldn't post about abortion, gay marriage, Aboriginal rights, etc.

I have concern for human rights abuses that are causally linked to Islam elsewhere in the world, and for the potential of Islam to interfere with Australian politics in the future.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I haven't proposed banning Islam or the burqa.

If I didn't share an opinion on topics that haven't affected me thus far, I wouldn't post about abortion, gay marriage, Aboriginal rights, etc.

I have concern for human rights abuses that are causally linked to Islam elsewhere in the world, and for the potential of Islam to interfere with Australian politics in the future.

Fair enough, there are other posters who advocate banning it though, like 10571z , so not you.

Yeah I get to paraphrase 'ignoring it is allowing it' kinda thing, yeah we should be more opposing of the 'bad' bits of islam and all the other religions, even atheism.

Where does it end though?

I kinda see it as, walking into a strangers house and interfering with their domestic argument, it's kinda none of our business.

IF it effects others, then yeah, then we can take action. But it doesn't.

 

[evolved2]

Fair enough, there are other posters who advocate banning it though, like 10571z , so not you.

Yeah I get to paraphrase 'ignoring it is allowing it' kinda thing, yeah we should be more opposing of the 'bad' bits of islam and all the other religions, even atheism.

Where does it end though?

I kinda see it as, walking into a strangers house and interfering with their domestic argument, it's kinda none of our business.

IF it effects others, then yeah, then we can take action. But it doesn't.

Making sense of the world around us and finding a reason behind it all is a huge plus, and I can't deny that organised religion provides that. Even if the belief system is not true, it provides benefits in terms of community and faith in something bigger than individualism.

Ideally, you don't mess with that.

I don't even want to mess with that in Islamic countries. Their rules and culture are none of my business. I mean, we've tried to some extent to "fix" Afghanistan and Iraq with Western democracy and that was a big mistake. Western democracy has its own flaws and I can appreciate why it would be rejected elsewhere. They don't want or need to be fixed by us.

We have enough trouble keeping Christianity out of our political system and I foresee the same problem with Islam. That's where the issue lies. Ultimately Islam will need to be dumbed down and secularized like Christianity has largely been in the West. People who believe the Quran as literal truth are dangerous because religious texts become their source of truth, science, and human rights. I wouldn't neutralize Islam by force or banning it - education and integration will do that with time.

 

[Number37]

There's no objective evidence for any of the religious deities. Do you agree with that?

My atheism is a position I can back through science and logic. A Christian or Muslim can't do the same.

I can use faith or illogical beliefs to form positions on other topics and people, but that can't be said of my atheism.

When objective evidence is produced for the one true god (or gods), I'll accept that god as being real.

You have completely avoided what I actually said. Instead you have regurgitated the same straw man that atheists use all the time.

A person's objectivity has nothing to do with whether they are religious or not.
People have a tendency to substitute objectivity for confirmation bias.
A person's opinion is subjective.
Magically, atheists think that their opinion (subjective) is objective simply because they are not religious.
That isn't how it works.

 

[Number37]

What is a true atheist? I haven't seen that term before.

True atheist = doesn't believe in God.

As opposed to I don't believe in religion atheists. Which seems to be the majority.

 

[Number37]

I care when votes and policy are made because of that. I care when it affects people adversely. A religious person judging me or thinking I'm going to Hell for sins and unbelief doesn't bother me because it has no impact on my reality.

Our entire legal system has its basis in religion.
Our entire system of govt has its basis in religion.


What do you think this is??




It's brought in to the House of Reps every day.
It's a symbol of the House's power to make legislation/laws.

The Monarch gets his power to reign from God.
He then passes that power onto the GG, who exercises that power throughout the entire Constitution.

How is this mace thing secular???????

This idea that Australia, or pretty much every country, is secular, is the stuff of delusion.
This idea that other religions are going to make Australia non-secular is the stuff of delusion.
There is not a country on the planet that is secular, despite what they all may claim.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

True atheist = doesn't believe in God.

As opposed to I don't believe in religion atheists. Which seems to be the majority.

I don't believe you are correct.

 

[Total Power]

What is a true atheist? I haven't seen that term before.

This is truly astonishing that you have to say this and explain it to people? atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities. There's no unifying atheist belief system. Buddhism is a religion which is considered atheistic, like many other religions. An atheist can believe in aliens and all sorts of ****. Human brains search for patterns, infer intentions, learn by imitation, and frame unanswered questions in perspectives they can relate to and understand. Several cognitive biases influence the likelihood we believe the perspectives we create for ourselves are in fact real and true.

The reason humans have been inventing the same gods, over and over and over, independently of each other, since the dawn of civilization, is because this makes our ape brains happy. It’s not because there’s a god. There may or may not be a god, but religions are simply a man made invention.

 

[evolved2]

You have completely avoided what I actually said. Instead you have regurgitated the same straw man that atheists use all the time.

A person's objectivity has nothing to do with whether they are religious or not.
People have a tendency to substitute objectivity for confirmation bias.
A person's opinion is subjective.
Magically, atheists think that their opinion (subjective) is objective simply because they are not religious.
That isn't how it works.

Has anyone provided objective evidence for a deity?
Has any hypothesis for the existence of a deity been tested according to scientific methodology and shown statistically significant and meaningful evidence that a god exists?

I'm aware that atheists have the same cognitive biases as theists. I said so in the post you just replied to.

When scientific methodology is employed, atheism (rejection of the claim god is real) is the only logical conclusion. In the same way there's no evidence 5G causes covid, there's no evidence that god is real.

Saying there's no known objective evidence for god is more than an opinion. I claim it as a fact; one that theists can disprove quite easily by providing objective evidence.

Now, someone can have faith that god is real or that 5G causes covid. An atheist can have faith that 5G causes covid too. We're not immune to faith based assumptions just because we have a justifiable non-belief in deities.

If one rejects science as a means of testing for gods, that's their business. Silly, but everyone has the right to believe silly stuff.

I'll preempt a common claim that atheists have faith no god exists. No, we don't. We reject the claim god is real for the same reasons others reject the claim that flying unicorns are real. ie.there's no evidence for said claim.

 

[Total Power]

Has anyone provided objective evidence for a deity?
Has any hypothesis for the existence of a deity been tested according to scientific methodology and shown statistically significant and meaningful evidence that a god exists?

I'm aware that atheists have the same cognitive biases as theists. I said so in the post you just replied to.

When scientific methodology is employed, atheism (rejection of the claim god is real) is the only logical conclusion. In the same way there's no evidence 5G causes covid, there's no evidence that god is real.

Saying there's no known objective evidence for god is more than an opinion. I claim it as a fact; one that theists can disprove quite easily by providing objective evidence.

Now, someone can have faith that god is real or that 5G causes covid. An atheist can have faith that 5G causes covid too. We're not immune to faith based assumptions just because we have a justifiable non-belief in deities.

If one rejects science as a means of testing for gods, that's their business. Silly, but everyone has the right to believe silly stuff.

I'll preempt a common claim that atheists have faith no god exists. No, we don't. We reject the claim god is real for the same reasons others reject the claim that flying unicorns are real. ie.there's no evidence for said claim.

Yeah Mo flew to the moon on a winged horse...absolutely logical and believable. But evolution is so hard to believe...FMD.

 

[evolved2]

True atheist = doesn't believe in God.

As opposed to I don't believe in religion atheists. Which seems to be the majority.

Someone who believes in a non-religious deity isn't an atheist. They're a theist.

 

[evolved2]

This is truly astonishing that you have to say this and explain it to people? atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities. There's no unifying atheist belief system. Buddhism is a religion which is considered atheistic, like many other religions. An atheist can believe in aliens and all sorts of ****. Human brains search for patterns, infer intentions, learn by imitation, and frame unanswered questions in perspectives they can relate to and understand. Several cognitive biases influence the likelihood we believe the perspectives we create for ourselves are in fact real and true.

The reason humans have been inventing the same gods, over and over and over, independently of each other, since the dawn of civilization, is because this makes our ape brains happy. It’s not because there’s a god. There may or may not be a god, but religions are simply a man made invention.

There's a lot of things that are unknown and humans have a hard time admitting it. We invent dumb shit to fill the gaps.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah Mo flew to the moon on a winged horse...absolutely logical and believable. But evolution is so hard to believe...FMD.

Its not "hard" to believe, but people are told they are not permitted to believe.

 

[evolved2]

Its not "hard" to believe, but people are told they are not permitted to believe.

Fundies are nuts. This is what we're fighting against:

Statement of Faith

answersingenesis.org

 

[Gethelred]

Alright.This has probably gone on for long enough.

Conversation needs to return to the thread topic from this point. If you've not really budged from it - talking about and discussing Islam - feel free to keep going, but the atheism stuff - which really should've ended when the Ask a Christian thread did or remained in the Ask an Atheist thread where it belongs - will be deleted from here.

Let's get things back on track.

 

[Carringbush2010]

People who believe the Quran as literal truth are dangerous because religious texts become their source of truth, science, and human rights

And this is the crux, like I keep repeating. It is NONE of our business, until it is. Given, that it isn't to this point, I say let those who want to practice islam practice islam.

I do not see a rational fear of islam.






==

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Alright.This has probably gone on for long enough.

Conversation needs to return to the thread topic from this point. If you've not really budged from it - talking about and discussing Islam - feel free to keep going, but the atheism stuff - which really should've ended when the Ask a Christian thread did or remained in the Ask an Atheist thread where it belongs - will be deleted from here.

Let's get things back on track.

I thought the point of the thread wasn't to discuss Islam per se (or any religion for that matter) but to point out hypocrisy where everything associated with Islam is evil (hence the title) while other belief systems get a pass. Happy to stand corrected but that's what I took from the title.

Now to get the topic sort of back on track, there's been talk that our "Australian Values" (whatever they may be) will have to accommodate the ideas from Islam that clash. I personally don't think that will happen - case in point.

Victorian mother found guilty of forcing daughter to marry man who murdered her

A Victorian mother has been found guilty of forcing her daughter to marry a man, who later went on to murder the young bride.

www.abc.net.au

This is secularism at work. You are entitled to your religious beliefs but you are never above the law. Such a sad story, this poor girl escaped oppression only to find it within her own family. I do think there's a moral responsibility to help people trapped in any religious scenario that they do want to be part of to get out. Whether that's Islam, orthodox Christianity or Judaism, Hindu, etc

One last point while I'm rambling - I don't think demonising people for their beliefs helps them escape these situations. I work with a woman from Iran. She's always been very pro-feminist, pro LGBTI etc. But she has worn a headscarf. Some people could point out the hypocrisy of her position, the cognitive dissonance required, etc. Point is she's now discarded the head gear. Welcoming people into the secular fold, will hopefully ensure more people embrace it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I drive past a Mosque not far from where i live.
Sometimes on weekends they have a bbq near the front door, and i have to say , it appeals to my Australian ideals.
Might go in there next time they have an open day.