Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Number37]

One last point while I'm rambling - I don't think demonising people for their beliefs helps them escape these situations. I work with a woman from Iran. She's always been very pro-feminist, pro LGBTI etc. But she has worn a headscarf. Some people could point out the hypocrisy of her position, the cognitive dissonance required, etc. Point is she's now discarded the head gear. Welcoming people into the secular fold, will hopefully ensure more people embrace it.

Someone getting forced into wearing a headscarf is just as bad someone getting shamed into not wearing a headscarf.
There are millions of women who wear the headscarf willingly.

If it's not the headscarf, it will be something else about Muslims that people will take issue with.
The idea that someone wearing a headscarf can't possibly be pro-LGBTI or pro-womens rights is ludicrous.
That's like saying if a woman is married to a man then she can't be anti-domestic violence.

It's that kind of simpleton logic that doesn't do anybody any favours.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Someone getting forced into wearing a headscarf is just as bad someone getting shamed into not wearing a headscarf.
There are millions of women who wear the headscarf willingly.

If it's not the headscarf, it will be something else about Muslims that people will take issue with.
The idea that someone wearing a headscarf can't possibly be pro-LGBTI or pro-womens rights is ludicrous.
That's like saying if a woman is married to a man then she can't be anti-domestic violence.

It's that kind of simpleton logic that doesn't do anybody any favours.

You might be correct , but no its not analogous to that at all.
Its like saying that a woman voluntarily living with a violent man can't be anti-domestic violence.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Someone getting forced into wearing a headscarf is just as bad someone getting shamed into not wearing a headscarf.
There are millions of women who wear the headscarf willingly.

If it's not the headscarf, it will be something else about Muslims that people will take issue with.
The idea that someone wearing a headscarf can't possibly be pro-LGBTI or pro-womens rights is ludicrous.
That's like saying if a woman is married to a man then she can't be anti-domestic violence.

It's that kind of simpleton logic that doesn't do anybody any favours.

Who said she was shamed into not wearing a head scarf? My point is some people will willingly move away from the dogmatic aspects of their religion if they are embraced. I've got no issue with the head scarf - wear whatever you want.

Secondly, I never said wearing a head scarf doesn't mean you can't be pro LGBTi or pro-women's rights. What I said, was there would be people THAT would make that assertion. Case in point

Home - Sydney Queer Muslims

Supporting Queer Muslims with social support, counselling services and spiritual education.

sydneyqueermuslims.org.au

Your analogy regarding marriage is way off the mark given there is nothing in the marriage act that suggests domestic violence is an acceptable part of marriage. But most organised religions do have some pretty rotten things to say regarding women's rights and LGBTI issues.

 

[Number37]

Your analogy regarding marriage is way off the mark given there is nothing in the marriage act that suggests domestic violence is an acceptable part of marriage. But most organised religions do have some pretty rotten things to say regarding women's rights and LGBTI issues.

My analogy is way off but wearing a scarf is a symbol of <goodness knows what>

You can't have it both ways.
You specifically brought up your co-workers scarf.
Do you have any idea how poorly women wearing a scarf are treated??
Just because they wear a scarf...

Who said she was shamed into not wearing a head scarf? My point is some people will willingly move away from the dogmatic aspects of their religion if they are embraced. I've got no issue with the head scarf - wear whatever you want.

Secondly, I never said wearing a head scarf doesn't mean you can't be pro LGBTi or pro-women's rights. What I said, was there would be people THAT would make that assertion. Case in point

I didn't say she, specifically, was shamed into it.

She wears and scarf and yet she supports XYZ....ohhhh ahhhh
She doesn't wear a scarf and hey presto its her moving away from the dogmatic aspects of her religion.

That kind of thinking is scary.
It's scary because if it represents the views of the non-rabid anti-Islam brigade then it is no wonder people like Dutton get away going around talking absolute shit about Muslims.

 

[Number37]

You might be correct , but no its not analogous to that at all.
Its like saying that a woman voluntarily living with a violent man can't be anti-domestic violence.

It's not like saying that at all.
One is specific. One is general.

 

[sr36]

True atheist = doesn't believe in God.

As opposed to I don't believe in religion atheists. Which seems to be the majority.

How are you defining God?

A lot of religious people don't believe in the concept of man in the heavens.

 

[evolved2]

Interesting and balanced discussion on the Qur'an passage that seemingly supports domestic violence.

Exposing the darkness within: Domestic violence and Islam

Most Muslims believe Islam abhors violence. So why do some say the Koran sanctions "lightly" beating your wife? An ABC News investigation reveals the fight within Islam to stop the abuse of women and prevent imams from telling victims to stay and obey.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Number37]

Interesting and balanced discussion on the Qur'an passage that seemingly supports domestic violence.

Exposing the darkness within: Domestic violence and Islam

Most Muslims believe Islam abhors violence. So why do some say the Koran sanctions "lightly" beating your wife? An ABC News investigation reveals the fight within Islam to stop the abuse of women and prevent imams from telling victims to stay and obey.

www.abc.net.au

Do you really think that men who beat their wife do it because a book says they can?

 

[Number37]

How are you defining God?

A lot of religious people don't believe in the concept of man in the heavens.

We are not allowed to discuss that thing.

Some religions, such as Islam, define God as creator.

 

[evolved2]

Do you really think that men who beat their wife do it because a book says they can?

I'm sure some use the book to justify it. What concerns me more is that some women will accept a beating as part of their religious duty.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It's not like saying that at all.
One is specific. One is general.

What has being married to a non-violent man got to do with anything?
Let me guess, you are trying to insinuate that Burka's are worn because of fashion, or comfort? Why are they being worn? Why don't male Muslims wear them?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Interesting and balanced discussion on the Qur'an passage that seemingly supports domestic violence.

Exposing the darkness within: Domestic violence and Islam

Most Muslims believe Islam abhors violence. So why do some say the Koran sanctions "lightly" beating your wife? An ABC News investigation reveals the fight within Islam to stop the abuse of women and prevent imams from telling victims to stay and obey.

www.abc.net.au

How does the Quran compare to say, the Salem witch trials?

 

[evolved2]

How does the Quran compare to say, the Salem witch trials?

That's a strange comparison for starters. A like for like comparison would be the Bible vs Quran, but I don't see why the Quran can't be analysed in isolation.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

That's a strange comparison for starters. A like for like comparison would be the Bible vs Quran, but I don't see why the Quran can't be analysed in isolation.

In isolation it's a work of fiction - you are analysing plot devices. Taken literally, they can lead to things like the Salem Witch trials.

 

[Number37]

What has being married to a non-violent man got to do with anything?
Let me guess, you are trying to insinuate that Burka's are worn because of fashion, or comfort? Why are they being worn? Why don't male Muslims wear them?

I am not insinuating anything about why burqas are worn. That's just you making shit up.
Male Muslims are required to cover the upper parts of their legs. Most do.

Why aren't you complaining about male Muslims having to wear longer pants than other males?????

 

[Number37]

I'm sure some use the book to justify it. What concerns me more is that some women will accept a beating as part of their religious duty.

Come on man. No woman is accepting a beating because of any reason. That's just ludicrous.

Sure some use the book to justify it, after the fact.

'Look what you made me do' is the catch-cry of RWNJs.
RWNJs of all religious persuasions use it.

I don't know for sure, but I would reckon that a lot of atheist wife bashers would also try to find some BS excuse to attempt to justify abhorrent behaviour.

 

[sr36]

We are not allowed to discuss that thing.

Some religions, such as Islam, define God as creator.

It's pretty significant whether or not you're defining God as an entity, if you're defining an atheist as a disbeliever in God.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I am not insinuating anything about why burqas are worn. That's just you making shit up.
Male Muslims are required to cover the upper parts of their legs. Most do.

Why aren't you complaining about male Muslims having to wear longer pants than other males?????

Why would anyone notice, lots of the male population have their legs covered to their shoes?
If they forced women to wear a buttoned up blouse no-one would notice.

 

[Number37]

Why would anyone notice, lots of the male population have their legs covered to their shoes?
If they forced women to wear a buttoned up blouse no-one would notice.

So it is about oppression or whether someone notices?

 

[evolved2]

Come on man. No woman is accepting a beating because of any reason. That's just ludicrous.

Sure some use the book to justify it, after the fact.

'Look what you made me do' is the catch-cry of RWNJs.
RWNJs of all religious persuasions use it.

I don't know for sure, but I would reckon that a lot of atheist wife bashers would also try to find some BS excuse to attempt to justify abhorrent behaviour.

Believers hijacked passenger airlines and flew them into buildings for Allah. Is it really a stretch to say that some believers hit their wives because they interpret the Qu'ran as not only justifying it, but proposing it as a good idea?

 

[Number37]

Believers hijacked passenger airlines and flew them into buildings for Allah. Is it really a stretch to say that some believers hit their wives because they interpret the Qu'ran as not only justifying it, but proposing it as a good idea?

You've gone from saying woman accept getting abused because the book says it's allowed to people flying planes into buildings.

It's a little disturbing how the same people that decry the oppressiveness of a headscarf, in the same breath, are telling women what they can and can't do.

We lock children up in prisons because the Constitution says the govt has the power to vet asylum seekers.
There's lots of books that people follow that allows them to do horrendous stuff to other people.

 

[evolved2]

You've gone from saying woman accept getting abused because the book says it's allowed to people flying planes into buildings.

It's a little disturbing how the same people that decry the oppressiveness of a headscarf, in the same breath, are telling women what they can and can't do.

We lock children up in prisons because the Constitution says the govt has the power to vet asylum seekers.
There's lots of books that people follow that allows them to do horrendous stuff to other people.

There's a lot of red herrings in your reply. I'm not addressing other books, atheism, or refugees in this discussion.

Quote from a Muslim woman in the article I linked:

"He [the husband] is permitted — not obliged, not encouraged — but permitted, to hit her [his wife]," one of the women says. "That is what everyone is talking about. It should not cause pain. Not harsh."

Does it concern you that a book believed as truth by 2 billion people can be interpreted as permitting a man to hit his wife?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

There's a lot of red herrings in your reply. I'm not addressing other books, atheism, or refugees in this discussion.

Quote from a Muslim woman in the article I linked:

"He [the husband] is permitted — not obliged, not encouraged — but permitted, to hit her [his wife]," one of the women says. "That is what everyone is talking about. It should not cause pain. Not harsh."

Does it concern you that a book believed as truth by 2 billion people can be interpreted as permitting a man to hit his wife?

Do you think this is why Andrew Tate converted to Islam?

 

[evolved2]

Do you think this is why Andrew Tate converted to Islam?

Possibly!

 

[Cmarsh]

The concept of defending honour in Muslim culture is very messed up.

A 21yo Australian woman was stabbed in a shopping car park in a case of 'honour-based' violence

A woman is stabbed in an Adelaide shopping centre car park by her father in what prosecutors described as an "attempted honour-killing". One academic says this is just one case of thousands that occur globally every year.

www.abc.net.au